Thinking about JJ's worth with our new "motion" offense

[Admin]

I believe it was on ESPN that I read where Joe Johnson was the most efficient player in the league last year at scoring off of the pick and roll but that we ran him ISO 4 times as often as we ran him off of a PnR and that makes me think that while the JJ we've seen the past couple of years isn't a 6 yr/120 mil player the new offense would hopefully take advantage of his skills and could increase his scoring by 5-6 points simply due to efficiency of use. I think that a guy averaging 26 points, 5 assists and 5 rebounds a game while playing solid defense could be considered a max player.

Your thoughts?

[NJHAWK]

My thoughts are so positive on what JJ can do that my Hungarian suspicion kicks in. I think we all know that JJ is one hell of a player who has potentail attributes that are untapped. . We have chips that can make this a more complete team that can go far in the playoffs. Hopefully this is Rick Sund - :phone:

[Seano]

I agree. I'll be very excited to see Joe in this new style of offense, or for that matter any other offense than the Woodster's. As far as whether that will make him 'worthy' of being a max player, I have no idea. To me the whole max player thing is more one of semantics than substance, and you could split hairs all the way to infinity trying to determine what exactly is a max player and what one should be. Whether Joe is a max player or not, the reality is that we're going to have to pay him that way or we'll lose him, and apparently the ASG do not want to lose him. For that I say more power to them. Why not just go for it and try and do something REALLY big? I mean what the hell, you only live once.

[rusty]

I believe it was on ESPN that I read where Joe Johnson was the most efficient player in the league last year at scoring off of the pick and roll but that we ran him ISO 4 times as often as we ran him off of a PnR and that makes me think that while the JJ we've seen the past couple of years isn't a 6 yr/120 mil player the new offense would hopefully take advantage of his skills and could increase his scoring by 5-6 points simply due to efficiency of use. I think that a guy averaging 26 points, 5 assists and 5 rebounds a game while playing solid defense could be considered a max player.

Your thoughts?

joe would be the last person i would want playing in a motion offense. his game is dribbling & forcing shots. a motion offense means a lot of passing & ball movement. joe needs the ball in his hands to be effective. joe wants the ball in his hands. he is not a great defensive player.

[Admin]

joe would be the last person i would want playing in a motion offense. his game is dribbling & forcing shots. a motion offense means a lot of passing & ball movement. joe needs the ball in his hands to be effective. joe wants the ball in his hands. he is not a great defensive player.

Maybe if I hadn't seen Joe in Phoenix I would agree with you but the mere fact that I've seen him in an offense that doesn't rely on him being an ISO player and seeing how efficient he was makes me confident that he can excel in a non-ISO based offense.

Defensively no he's not a great defender but he's vastly underrated by Hawks fans. When you consider the toll on his body that playing heavy minutes as the primary offensive player and as the guy who has to guard the best back court player every game and he still plays good (not great) defense that should tell you something about his ability.

[rusty]

Maybe if I hadn't seen Joe in Phoenix I would agree with you but the mere fact that I've seen him in an offense that doesn't rely on him being an ISO player and seeing how efficient he was makes me confident that he can excel in a non-ISO based offense.

Defensively no he's not a great defender but he's vastly underrated by Hawks fans. When you consider the toll on his body that playing heavy minutes as the primary offensive player and as the guy who has to guard the best back court player every game and he still plays good (not great) defense that should tell you something about his ability.

joe didnt want to play that situation, thats why he came here to be the man,he loved iso joe,why wouldnt he when he could be the star.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

All I know, is that while JJ may not be a MAX player in the form of Lebron, Wade, and Kobe . . . no one can't deny that he had just as much responsibility on the Hawks, as those other guys had on their respective teams.

- be the tough shot maker by creating shots for yourself

- be the main guy that set others up for shots

- be the end of the game closer

- be the top perimeter defender on the team

- play 2, sometimes 3 positions within a game on offense and defense

There are a lot of All-Star players in this league. But you'll find very few who had to do these 5 things on a nightly basis.

MAX player responsibilities.

[mrhonline]

I believe part of the reason Joe was so effective in the pick-n-roll was how shocked other teams were to see it.

[foeteen14]

with jj on this team i don't think there will be a motion offense. maybe if we had a cp3, dwill, or nash at the point, but we don't. joe is going to end up controlling the ball just like he does now. it's not really his fault. but unless teague turns into rondo, joe is going to dominate the ball. and when jamal crawford is in the game, he's going to dominate the ball. i may be wrong, but i don't think this works without a proven legit point guard.

[NJHAWK]

All I know, is that while JJ may not be a MAX player in the form of Lebron, Wade, and Kobe . . . no one can't deny that he had just as much responsibility on the Hawks, as those other guys had on their respective teams.

- be the tough shot maker by creating shots for yourself

- be the main guy that set others up for shots

- be the end of the game closer

- be the top perimeter defender on the team

- play 2, sometimes 3 positions within a game on offense and defense

There are a lot of All-Star players in this league. But you'll find very few who had to do these 5 things on a nightly basis.

MAX player responsibilities.

Consistently double teamed because very few can stop him one on one.

[rusty]

All I know, is that while JJ may not be a MAX player in the form of Lebron, Wade, and Kobe . . . no one can't deny that he had just as much responsibility on the Hawks, as those other guys had on their respective teams.

- be the tough shot maker by creating shots for yourself

- be the main guy that set others up for shots

- be the end of the game closer

- be the top perimeter defender on the team

- play 2, sometimes 3 positions within a game on offense and defense

There are a lot of All-Star players in this league. But you'll find very few who had to do these 5 things on a nightly basis.

MAX player responsibilities.

what the hell do you smoke

[Admin]

I believe part of the reason Joe was so effective in the pick-n-roll was how shocked other teams were to see it.

LOL well done sir

[rusty]

with jj on this team i don't think there will be a motion offense. maybe if we had a cp3, dwill, or nash at the point, but we don't. joe is going to end up controlling the ball just like he does now. it's not really his fault. but unless teague turns into rondo, joe is going to dominate the ball. and when jamal crawford is in the game, he's going to dominate the ball. i may be wrong, but i don't think this works without a proven legit point guard.

thats his game,to dominate the ball

[coachx]

I believe it was on ESPN that I read where Joe Johnson was the most efficient player in the league last year at scoring off of the pick and roll but that we ran him ISO 4 times as often as we ran him off of a PnR and that makes me think that while the JJ we've seen the past couple of years isn't a 6 yr/120 mil player the new offense would hopefully take advantage of his skills and could increase his scoring by 5-6 points simply due to efficiency of use. I think that a guy averaging 26 points, 5 assists and 5 rebounds a game while playing solid defense could be considered a max player.

Your thoughts?

Winning is the most important thing in justifying salary. That and both his personal and the team playoff performance of course.

Not worried about JJ's individual stats at all, personally. He is such a good passer that in a motion offense JJ's passing ability will be magnified. Especially as the timing of the cuts and screens are perfected. This will force teams to double team him less so that he can be more effective when he does have an iso.

Predictability is the key. We have to keep defenses off balance with multiple motion sets and multiple pick and roll sets. When you a run an iso offense 70% of the time it lets the defense no exactly what is coming so they are more prepared to stop it.

Same for defense. We can still switch but so much that is so predictable. Of course with Bibby on the floor we have no choice but to switch.

Edited July 2, 2010 by coachx

[RedDawg#8]

I believe part of the reason Joe was so effective in the pick-n-roll was how shocked other teams were to see it.

LMAO!

with jj on this team i don't think there will be a motion offense. maybe if we had a cp3, dwill, or nash at the point, but we don't. joe is going to end up controlling the ball just like he does now. it's not really his fault. but unless teague turns into rondo, joe is going to dominate the ball. and when jamal crawford is in the game, he's going to dominate the ball. i may be wrong, but i don't think this works without a proven legit point guard.

I would agree if Coach Drew didnt say himself that he plans on decreasing JJ's ballhandling responsibility. Remember during his press conference, this was one of his incentives to JJ to come back, that the new offense wont require so much from him and would keep him fresher throughout the game/season

[rusty]

LMAO!

I would agree if Coach Drew didnt say himself that he plans on decreasing JJ's ballhandling responsibility. Remember during his press conference, this was one of his incentives to JJ to come back, that the new offense wont require so much from him and would keep him fresher throughout the game/season

do you truly belive that is what joe wants

[mrhonline]

Winning is the most important thing in justifying salary.

That's true. You should make it your sig...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

with jj on this team i don't think there will be a motion offense. maybe if we had a cp3, dwill, or nash at the point, but we don't. joe is going to end up controlling the ball just like he does now. it's not really his fault. but unless teague turns into rondo, joe is going to dominate the ball. and when jamal crawford is in the game, he's going to dominate the ball. i may be wrong, but i don't think this works without a proven legit point guard.

You can still have motion with the ball in Joe's or Jamal's hands. It's just that the people off the ball need to be moving or setting screens, so that a possible easier shot can be had.

But I do agree with you though. Most good offenses are ran by good PGs. This means that Teague has to be a legit threat both scoring and passing the ball.

If he's not, JJ will have no choice but to have the ball in His hands. And that's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be, seeing that he can score, pass, and has a low turnover number.

People may think that ISO JJ and Jamal will completely disappear, but it's not. If anything, you may see a lot less ISO Smoove and Horford, and more JJ making quicker decisions with the basketball.

[rusty]

You can still have motion with the ball in Joe's or Jamal's hands. It's just that the people off the ball need to be moving or setting screens, so that a possible easier shot can be had.

But I do agree with you though. Most good offenses are ran by good PGs. This means that Teague has to be a legit threat both scoring and passing the ball.

If he's not, JJ will have no choice but to have the ball in His hands. And that's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be, seeing that he can score, pass, and has a low turnover number.

People may think that ISO JJ and Jamal will completely disappear, but it's not. If anything, you may see a lot less ISO Smoove and Horford, and more JJ making quicker decisions with the basketball.

i never seen joe hit anyone under the hoop for an easy basket,i seen him throw it out to the perimeter with time winding down . when he dribbled away the cloak with 4 players

on him he never could find anyone free,the reason for this is that he wanted to shoot the shot. how many times would he turn the ball over

Edited July 2, 2010 by rusty

[RedDawg#8]

do you truly belive that is what joe wants

When he first got here, Joe had to dominate the ball

The past couple of years, he has been playing for a contract so he was mainly trying to get his.

Now that he got his payday I see no reason why he wouldnt be willing to follow suit with the new offense. Especially if it leads to more wins and he can still get his 20 ppg.

If I was Joe, was getting paid the Max and my new coach DIDNT want me the dominate the ball, I would jump at that chance. He's basically getting paid more to do less, but just be more of team player and fit with the offense.... so to answer your question: considering the circumstances, sure, why not?