JOHNSON TO REMAIN WITH HAWKS

[Admin]

For those of you who think this is such a bad idea to give Joe this contract take a second to think about the how different the perception of this team is to other players around the league with Joe and without. I know that we haven't signed any big FA's since Joe has been here and he alone is not a big enough draw but just imagine how much less attractive we are when trying to sign a quality player to the MLE or trying to sign veterans for the minimum without Joe on the roster.

With Joe and playing on a team without an offensive system and with a lot of internal turmoil we won 53 games and maybe if we hadn't bombed the 4th quarter of game 2 against the Magic we might have made some real noise in the playoffs so we're not far off from contending. This year God willing we'll have a real offensive system, we'll hopefully be better defensively by moving Teague into the starting lineup and the Hawks are actively looking to find a starting caliber center. That player is reportedly Beidrins via trading Marvin and while that will help us a lot off the bench it opens up a big hole at SF but we've got our ace in the hole in Childress who might jump at the chance to come back with a guarantee that he'd be our starting SF. That would still leave us the full MLE and while it's doubtful that we'd use it this offseason after making these moves we would at least still have it available to us at the trading deadline or after when some quality veterans will be let go. Assuming that we're at least as good as last year I like our chances of being able to sign or trade for someone who could help us at that point.

Without Joe we have to move Jamal into the starting lineup and rely on a rookie to back him up so we've gotten worse defensively and a lot less reliable with our 6th man. The Marvin trade might be a requirement for Joe to sign or a step that Sund feels we need to make after signing JJ but if we don't sign JJ then we have to try and find another way to get a quality big to backup Al and Josh which means using our MLE. It also means that we'd be unlikely to get Childress to re-sign since Marvin would still be here and maybe we'd be able to work out a S&T for him but even if we do we won't get a player as good or better than Childress and certainly not anywhere near JJ's level.

What I'm trying to say here is that Joe is probably not worth 20 million per season if you only take it at face value but if you look at the ripple effect of signing or not signing JJ it all comes down to we're a better team with a better chance of winning with JJ than we are without and if it takes 20 million to sign him then IMO we have to do it.

My final thought is I know that we're all impatient and continually checking online hoping for some news and we're emotional about it because we can only see it as him accepting it or not but as is almost always the case there is probably a lot more to the deal than we're aware of. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the coaches, management, owners etc have talked with JJ about what he'd like the Hawks to do and that we're talking to teams trying to see what we actually can do and that's going to take a little time since the whole league is in flux right now with all this insanity so let's just be patient and trust that Sund is going to take care of us like he's done the past 2 off-seasons and lets give JJ the benefit of the doubt that there is probably a very good reason we he hasn't publicly agreed to accept the deal.

[ggp]

^^^^ Well said Dolfan. The market clearly favors the players this year. While JJ may not be the dominant player that Kobe, Wade or James are, he is in the next tier. Not signing him would have precipitated a major setback for the franchise. Without him, few FA's would choose to come to ATL and the Hawks would likely lose Horford soon.

This is a move that is needed. What matters most is what happens next. If JJ has contractually forced the Spirit to add an upgrade along the front court, then JJ has already paid off.

Let's keep our minds open.

[KB21]

their deals are the same (20 million per year) only Dirk's is for 4 years instead of 6

I think that because he has been in the league for 10+ years, Dirk can actually get more than what Joe got.

[KB21]

For those of you who think this is such a bad idea to give Joe this contract take a second to think about the how different the perception of this team is to other players around the league with Joe and without. I know that we haven't signed any big FA's since Joe has been here and he alone is not a big enough draw but just imagine how much less attractive we are when trying to sign a quality player to the MLE or trying to sign veterans for the minimum without Joe on the roster.

With Joe and playing on a team without an offensive system and with a lot of internal turmoil we won 53 games and maybe if we hadn't bombed the 4th quarter of game 2 against the Magic we might have made some real noise in the playoffs so we're not far off from contending. This year God willing we'll have a real offensive system, we'll hopefully be better defensively by moving Teague into the starting lineup and the Hawks are actively looking to find a starting caliber center. That player is reportedly Beidrins via trading Marvin and while that will help us a lot off the bench it opens up a big hole at SF but we've got our ace in the hole in Childress who might jump at the chance to come back with a guarantee that he'd be our starting SF. That would still leave us the full MLE and while it's doubtful that we'd use it this offseason after making these moves we would at least still have it available to us at the trading deadline or after when some quality veterans will be let go. Assuming that we're at least as good as last year I like our chances of being able to sign or trade for someone who could help us at that point.

Without Joe we have to move Jamal into the starting lineup and rely on a rookie to back him up so we've gotten worse defensively and a lot less reliable with our 6th man. The Marvin trade might be a requirement for Joe to sign or a step that Sund feels we need to make after signing JJ but if we don't sign JJ then we have to try and find another way to get a quality big to backup Al and Josh which means using our MLE. It also means that we'd be unlikely to get Childress to re-sign since Marvin would still be here and maybe we'd be able to work out a S&T for him but even if we do we won't get a player as good or better than Childress and certainly not anywhere near JJ's level.

What I'm trying to say here is that Joe is probably not worth 20 million per season if you only take it at face value but if you look at the ripple effect of signing or not signing JJ it all comes down to we're a better team with a better chance of winning with JJ than we are without and if it takes 20 million to sign him then IMO we have to do it.

My final thought is I know that we're all impatient and continually checking online hoping for some news and we're emotional about it because we can only see it as him accepting it or not but as is almost always the case there is probably a lot more to the deal than we're aware of. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the coaches, management, owners etc have talked with JJ about what he'd like the Hawks to do and that we're talking to teams trying to see what we actually can do and that's going to take a little time since the whole league is in flux right now with all this insanity so let's just be patient and trust that Sund is going to take care of us like he's done the past 2 off-seasons and lets give JJ the benefit of the doubt that there is probably a very good reason we he hasn't publicly agreed to accept the deal.

I think the premise is good, but my argument against it is that it is not a strong basketball decision because of the financial burden it is going to put on the team down the road. The Hawks have put themselves into a position where they have to make another major move or two to make this work. Joe isn't going to get any better. I don't see him suddenly becoming an efficient player that will drive to the basket and get to the free throw line. The probability of Joe declining in the last three years of this deal are very high. The Hawks traded Steve Smith when he was 29 because the perception was that the Hawks were an old, slow paced team that had no room for improvement. Joe is a very similar player to Steve Smith, with the biggest difference being that Joe doesn't have Steve's creaky knees. In a sense, had the Hawks given Steve Smith a max deal at the age of 29, it would have been a similar move to this.

With the current situation and knowing the the future salary structure of this team is already wrecked, the Hawks now have to pursue moves that will make this team a legitimate contending team now.

[Buzzard]

This will go down as worth of the worst contracts in NBA history just wait and see. Signing Joe Johnson does not get us any closer to an NBA championship we should have did a sign and trade. joe johnson does not deserve superstar money.

Losing him takes us furher away from being a contender. This is not a subtraction = addition instance. Without JJ we are a 7th or 8th seed at best; and no one is going to give equal compensation. We have two all stars with JJ locked up, lets see if one of our young players can take the next leap or try and trade for one.

[DrReality]

All that remains is whether other teams have enough to offer us for a S and T. And that eliminates half of the teams. We are in the driver's seat at this point.

[DrReality]

Hawks are actively looking to find a starting caliber center. That player is reportedly Beidrins via trading Marvin

I would be tickled pink if we pullled this off but I don't understand why GS would do this? That would leave them without a center and they have multiple guys who play forward.

[JJFAN4LF]

Hawks are actively looking to find a starting caliber center. That player is reportedly Beidrins via trading Marvin

I would be tickled pink if we pullled this off but I don't understand why GS would do this? That would leave them without a center and they have multiple guys who play forward.

They might want to start Ekpe Udoh right away and develop him as fast as possible. I wouldn't do it for Golden State's sake, but if they do, I'm not complaining. Heck, we should look for more trades with Golden State if this happens. We would get two players that really help that were in Golden State in Jamal Crawford and Biedrins with giving little value.

[ATLBob]

Joe is probably not worth 20 million per season if you only take it at face value but if you look at the ripple effect of signing or not signing JJ it all comes down to we're a better team with a better chance of winning with JJ than we are without and if it takes 20 million to sign him then IMO we have to do it.

But but but Dolfan ... ESPN called it the worst contract ever ... and I don't like JJ!

:sobbing:

Waa!!! Does anyone have a tissue?

:grimace:

[bird_dirt]

the worth of his contract is not directly linked to his stat line.

on top of what dolfan and other have pointed out, signing jj back (which required us to offer such a huge contract) gives us the ability to have a payroll over the league cap. if jj leaves, then we construct the whole team staying under the cap with only the mle to go above that. then everyone would screaming how cheap the owners are because of how low our payroll is compared to other teams. we wouldn't be able to go above the cap until next year when we resign horf.

this is could potentially be a great move for the team. in a year or two, we could still trade jj as a means to acquiring players of need and keeping our payroll up, plus we could be much more likely to get players we would want more when we wouldn't have our backs against the wall and be forced to deal with only one that jj would pick if we were to do a s-n-t. we could deal him to the pacers, the bucks, the clippers, the wizards, anywhere. jj contract haters just need to keep a mental clip in their head picturing us sending jj to the t-wolves with claw marks stretching from atlanta to minnesota as he is being dragged against his will to the tundra.

[WraithSentinel]

Is Joe "Money Bags" Johnson an acceptable nickname for him if he agrees? lol

I will be calling him MAD MAX if I get pissed off at him.

[Swiftkick]

think we should call Joe " Allan Houston " from now on

[sturt]

I'm just not that interested in taking a step backwards for the sake of the future at this point... we're on the precipice of having our greatest level of success since 1987...

If it were the case that we had no assets at all to improve the team in the off-season, I might think differently, but indeed, we do... and that, plus the fact that most of us agree there is improvement to be had just by virtue of gaining a less predictable offense, tell me that the adage strike while the iron is hot fits.

[sturt]

Hawks are actively looking to find a starting caliber center. That player is reportedly Beidrins via trading Marvin

I would be tickled pink if we pullled this off but I don't understand why GS would do this? That would leave them without a center and they have multiple guys who play forward.

Biedrins doesn't excite me... not enough meat and offensively his game is almost completely limited to transition.

Having said that... one answer to your question might be the 3-way rumored b/t NYK, MIN, and GSW, wherein Al Jefferson ends up moving to the Bay, Ellis to New York, and David Lee takes a SnT to Minny... though I'm highly skeptical that David Lee would have anything to do with that idea.

[ggp]

I think the premise is good, but my argument against it is that it is not a strong basketball decision because of the financial burden it is going to put on the team down the road. The Hawks have put themselves into a position where they have to make another major move or two to make this work. Joe isn't going to get any better. I don't see him suddenly becoming an efficient player that will drive to the basket and get to the free throw line. The probability of Joe declining in the last three years of this deal are very high. The Hawks traded Steve Smith when he was 29 because the perception was that the Hawks were an old, slow paced team that had no room for improvement. Joe is a very similar player to Steve Smith, with the biggest difference being that Joe doesn't have Steve's creaky knees. In a sense, had the Hawks given Steve Smith a max deal at the age of 29, it would have been a similar move to this.

With the current situation and knowing the the future salary structure of this team is already wrecked, the Hawks now have to pursue moves that will make this team a legitimate contending team now.

Perhaps. But, if they approach the situation correctly, they have the opportunity to set the team up for success with quality young talent. I admit that I am not as knowledgeable about basketball as you. So, here are my thoughts and I'd like to hear what you think. It's OK to rip me apart. I am here to learn.

1. Johnson gets the max deal. No other player that we could have acquired would be allowed to make that much. So, the Hawks lock in a player that is very good and that can play SG as well as SF. In four years, JJ should still be healthy enough to perform at a high level. Judging from his health history, he is a good risk. I remember Steve Smith and the way he gutted out many a game. JJ's knees are intact and should withstand the length of his contract. Heck, if Shaq carry his weight for as long as he has, JJ should be OK.

2. Josh Smith just signed a big contract. You can fill in the details, but I am guessing that he makes 10-15 million per year. JS is a crowd pleaser, but he lacks the ability to score from the perimeter enough to be considered a versatile offensive threat. His great value is on the defensive side of the ball, but he is often out of position to make the routine stop. He makes up for this with this incredible physical athleticism. Hence, we are treated to his spectacular blocks. But, how many times does he leave our Center alone to guard the interior? Probably more often than we care to admit. I suspect that Horford had Josh in mind when he publicly asked for more help. We can assume that Josh has not been coached properly, but I am guessing that all that Woody/Smoove conflict came from Josh's slowness to pick up his defensive role. He might respond to a different HC, but chances are that Josh will always have a selfish instinct that he will have to work to overcome. From my perspective, JS is not a good fit for the long term of this team. Fortunately, he has been featured on ESPN with all those spectacular plays. He is a valuable trade asset and could render the team a starting Center or more. An example of one such trade would be with Dallas. I hear they have an up and coming PG on their roster and that Cuban might be willing to move him, and a back up Center, in order to satisfy Dirk's request to add a high profile player now.

3. Marvin Williams was signed to a major deal. He is young and the Hawks have been very patient with him. All of the hate for him comes from the fact that he was chosen instead of Deron or CP3. That hate should be directed towards BK, not Marvin. MW is a good young player that has improved every season. He will never be as good as Deron or CP3, but he will have a respectable career when all is said and done. Apparently, the Warriors like him enough to work a trade. If that is the case, the Hawks will have an opportunity to get his contract off their books and make more room for future contracts. Biedrins is a good, solid defensive Center that is still young, move up and down the court well and he has shown that he can start in this league. The trade allows Horford to move to PF. A combo of Horford and Biedrins should provide the Hawks with a solid interior defense for years.

4. Al Horford. We all know that this kid is quality through and through. The Hawks must make room for him. Perhaps trading Marvin will provide enough cap space to do just that. I just outlined two possible trades that, together, will certainly provide enough room for the Hawks to keep Al and still have room to grow. Take the ten million from MW's contract and the Hawks should be able to offer Horford a max contract.

From my point of view, the JJ signing should not hinder this franchise from continuing its upward trend. Let me know what you think. I respect your opinion.

[benhillboy]

Dirk left 16 million on the table so Dallas can get him some extra help.

Most of us who haven't made tens of millions of dollars for the past decade+ can't see the logic in this, but I can damn sure see the honor. I think he has become a better player than the one who won the MVP award, yet his focus is still on 12 or 13 guys, and hell, even a synchronized, smooth running front office. When your best player exhibits this type of stand-up-ness, unlike our "best" player, it's huge. If this contract does in fact rear it's ugly head when it comes time to sign Al (you know, a more popular, efficient player with promise for the future), it will be awful for Hawks' P.R., as if it isn't a nightmare already. We all know that there will be friction between Joe and Josh stemming from this contract also because everyone and their mother knows he is worth half, even you guys here with the weak, defeated excuse of "What better option do we have?" Does Coach Drew have any idea how to coach and manage a guy who makes 120 mil?

I'm hot and cold on Chipper Jones, but will always respect his willingness to take less to sign Rafael Furcal way back when. As Great a player as K.G. was/ is, his legacy for me is capped with restructuring his then unprecedented contract to help Minny sign Spreewell and Cassell, only for Spree to say "I need to feed my family" after reaching the Conference Finals, barely knowing each other. Hopefully LeBron and Wade will realize that money isn't everything and they can easily make up salary in endorsements, which are mainly based on hoisting the Jim O'Brian. I guess I can see where Joe is coming from in that aspect, though. He's lucky enough to have endorsements for some energy drink and Brand Jordan, because he's as marketable as a KFC Double-Down Chicken sandwich with chicken as the bread.

The moment it becomes apparent that he won't be traded and will realize every single penny of this dumbfounding contract will be one of the worst moments in Hawks' history. Even that won't deter me from saying "Let's Go, Hawks" though. Just don't let my homegirl call me often about good seats she got close to the floor, because I will certainly be thrown out of Philips for Mr. 120 (that's how Joe will be referred to in my posts henceforth) wanting to fight me after his dribble is picked cleanly, or worse, ricocheting off his knee, throws up a women's basketball lay-up off the bottom of the rim, or fails to shoot a single free throw the whole game. My God.

Edited July 4, 2010 by benhillboy

[Admin]

FYI Dirk signed the MAXIMUM contract amount for the MAXIMUM amount of years that he could. He was only able to sign a 4 year deal because he is 32 years old and the NBA won't allow him to sign for more than 4 years at a max salary since that contract would carry over past the limit of 36 years old for max contracts. So for those who are trying to use him as an example of a real team player you should probably check out the facts first before trying to make our star player look bad in comparison.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think the premise is good, but my argument against it is that it is not a strong basketball decision because of the financial burden it is going to put on the team down the road. The Hawks have put themselves into a position where they have to make another major move or two to make this work. Joe isn't going to get any better. I don't see him suddenly becoming an efficient player that will drive to the basket and get to the free throw line. The probability of Joe declining in the last three years of this deal are very high. The Hawks traded Steve Smith when he was 29 because the perception was that the Hawks were an old, slow paced team that had no room for improvement. Joe is a very similar player to Steve Smith, with the biggest difference being that Joe doesn't have Steve's creaky knees. In a sense, had the Hawks given Steve Smith a max deal at the age of 29, it would have been a similar move to this.

With the current situation and knowing the the future salary structure of this team is already wrecked, the Hawks now have to pursue moves that will make this team a legitimate contending team now.

That's the point KB. To maximize the potential of this team NOW.

And while I loved Smitty, Joe Johnson was a better player than he was, both on offense and defense.

You talk about how this team is going to be put into a financial burden down the road, like there's no possibility that JJ can't be traded near the end of his contract. There has been too many instances in this league in which a large contract has been traded before his deal was up.

But seriously . . what is the plan if we don't bring JJ back? Who is coming to ATL to be the star player that we need? Do you really think the Hawks are a better team without JJ?

Forget the money. JJ won't be making 20 mill until that 4th year. Are the Hawks better off without Joe Johnson? The teams we'd be signing and trading with, would probably be Chicago, Dallas, or New York. Do people covet Luou Deng, Caron Butler, and Chris Duhon to the point that they'd rather see JJ traded for them? Because those are the types of players we'd be talking about getting in a sign and trade.

We would still have to make moves to upgrade the team, regardless if JJ were here or not. We still may have to trade Horford or Smoove for a star or better player, to see this team get to the next level.

JJ and this group has improved every year ( and people can say that without giving Woody partial credit ). The last hurdle they need to overcome before they become serious contenders, is winning more than 50% of their road games.

We are as close as we have been to getting to that next level since the mid 90s. And people are willing to throw that all away, simply because they believe JJ is overpaid, and will be financially hurting the team in years 4 through 6 of his deal?

[99PROBL3MS]

It amazes me how concerned everyone is about what happens four years from now (as if the next for years until then don't matter). Some people will say anything to hate on JJ. If we let him walk and the team goes backwards, what kind of message does that send to Horford? Would he even want to stick around???? I am more concerned about this coming season than 4-5 years from now.

[BusBoyIsBack]

This will go down as worth of the worst contracts in NBA history just wait and see. Signing Joe Johnson does not get us any closer to an NBA championship we should have did a sign and trade. joe johnson does not deserve superstar money.

We are a lot closer to a championship WITH Joe Johnson than without him.

Not one single person who complains about this trade locally or nationally can explain the alternative to not signing him and why it's so pie in the sky.

Yeah we may not win a championship with Joe, ,but that doesn't mean be frugal and settle for a team that would have even a worse shot at competing

And it's not even your money being spent as the front office tries to make the team as competitive as possible