Merged: Cavs trying to use Shaq to lure Williams

[Admin]

you saying that now and then we run into Orlando again causing Dwight Howard to destroy our frontline. It does makes us closer to contending.

Dwight Howard isn't a problem for the Hawks ... if we run a traditional defense. We've beaten the Magic with Howard playing in years past, we won a game last year (were winning another at halftime) and could have won game 2 of the playoffs and that's with us playing a defense that puts us in the worst possible position to defeat the Magic. But if we try and run that switching defense the Magic have learned how to defeat that by swinging the ball and constantly finding open shooters.

I honestly believe that if we switch to a more traditional defense against the Magic and get some size at the backup PF position we'll be fine.

[Admin]

I agree with Diesel this time. We can get rid of Marvin's ridiculous contract, bring in the back up center we need, and we still have the MLE to sign a better SF to a shorter more reasonable contract.

People are getting stuck on the trade aspect of this. What if we signed Shaq and traded Marvin for an equal or better SF to a shorter and cheaper contract? That is essentially what we are doing.

Plus we will be on TV almost every game next year for Shaq's farewell tour. If you are the ASG you do this move without question.

How is Marvin's contract ridiculous? He's making 800k more than the MLE this year and it doesn't go up that much over the remaining few years. Compare that with contracts that have been given out this year and his production easily falls in line and let's not forget that Marvin has been a 15/7 player for us so it's not like he isn't capable of more than earning his 6.5 million this year.

[Guest]

I agree with Diesel this time. We can get rid of Marvin's ridiculous contract, bring in the back up center we need, and we still have the MLE to sign a better SF to a shorter more reasonable contract.

People are getting stuck on the trade aspect of this. What if we signed Shaq and traded Marvin for an equal or better SF to a shorter and cheaper contract? That is essentially what we are doing.

Plus we will be on TV almost every game next year for Shaq's farewell tour. If you are the ASG you do this move without question.

You are saying we trade MV for Shaq to be the back up center? Shaq ain coming off the bench if he comes here buddy. Who is the better SF you wanna pay the5.8 MLE to?

[Chaze]

it 's off topic , but at least 1 atlanta team made a trade today

Braves trade Yunel Escobar for Alex Gonzalez

2010: 17 HR, .259 BA, 50 RBI,

Wish the Hawks could make a move to try to get to the finals.

seriously wow i didnt no that. yunel had a bad year this year

Edited July 15, 2010 by Chaze

[Diesel]

Seriously, how many centers does the Hawks have trouble with? Dwight Howard that's it, with LBJ in Miami a wing defender is just as important if not more important. I don't care how much you dislike Marvin, trading Marvin to pay Shaq more money to sit on the bench in a suit half the year, makes no sense. Making such a deal doesn't move the Hawks any closer to being a contender.

LBJ isnt going to be stopped by Marvin. I would rather get Shaq as Dwight coverage and grab Matt Barnes for 3 Mil to cover LBJ. Marvin is not worth the money.

[Diesel]

you saying that now and then we run into Orlando again causing Dwight Howard to destroy our frontline. It does makes us closer to contending.

Didn't Howard shot like 80+% against us in the playoffs?

Who are we kidding!!!

[Diesel]

Dwight Howard isn't a problem for the Hawks ... if we run a traditional defense. We've beaten the Magic with Howard playing in years past, we won a game last year (were winning another at halftime) and could have won game 2 of the playoffs and that's with us playing a defense that puts us in the worst possible position to defeat the Magic. But if we try and run that switching defense the Magic have learned how to defeat that by swinging the ball and constantly finding open shooters.

I honestly believe that if we switch to a more traditional defense against the Magic and get some size at the backup PF position we'll be fine.

Last years version of Dwight Howard that we met in the playoffs (games that count).

Game 1: 21 points, 12 rebs, 80% FG%. 5 blocks.

Game 2: 29 points, 17 rebs, 88% FG%. 1 Block.

Game 3: 21 points, 16 rebs, 75% FG%. 1 Block.

Game 4: 13 points, 8 rebs, 100% FG%. 4 Blocks.

You say Dwight Howard is not a problem? IN what Freakin world?? What I see is a guy who have matured over the years and just dominated our frontline like he was playing high schoolers. Even when we so called stopped him in game 4, he still outscored Horf.

Then when you bring in what Marvin did...

8 points, 9 points, 6 points, 2 points.... This is in the playoffs playing more than 20 minutes per game.

Shaq vs. Boston you say?

11 points (19 mins), 9 points (18 mins), 12 points (22 minutes), 17 points (27 mins), 21 points (26 mins), 11 points, (24 mins).

Make the damn trade!!!

[DrReality]

this is a wet dream for Diesel

[Admin]

Last years version of Dwight Howard that we met in the playoffs (games that count).

Game 1: 21 points, 12 rebs, 80% FG%. 5 blocks.

Game 2: 29 points, 17 rebs, 88% FG%. 1 Block.

Game 3: 21 points, 16 rebs, 75% FG%. 1 Block.

Game 4: 13 points, 8 rebs, 100% FG%. 4 Blocks.

You say Dwight Howard is not a problem? IN what Freakin world?? What I see is a guy who have matured over the years and just dominated our frontline like he was playing high schoolers. Even when we so called stopped him in game 4, he still outscored Horf.

Then when you bring in what Marvin did...

8 points, 9 points, 6 points, 2 points.... This is in the playoffs playing more than 20 minutes per game.

Shaq vs. Boston you say?

11 points (19 mins), 9 points (18 mins), 12 points (22 minutes), 17 points (27 mins), 21 points (26 mins), 11 points, (24 mins).

Make the damn trade!!!

Howard can score ALL DAY LONG against us for all I care because he can't beat a team on his own. The problem is the other 4 guys around him shooting 50% or better from 3pt land. That's where we lost the games. You get out there and guard those players instead of letting them have wide open after wide open shot and it's an entirely different series. I'm not saying we don't need another big man but we need our ONLY SF a hell of a lot more than we need a center to compete against ONE TEAM every once in a while and maybe in the playoffs. I know you hate Marvin and would get rid of him for any player in the league but without having someone to replace him it would be absolutely foolish to trade him. And yes I know you don't appreciate the defense that he provides or the willingness to play the 4th or 5th shooter role without complaining and while being treated like crap by the fans but the fact is that you won't find many SF's who can play defense as well as Marvin does that can also score the basketball as much as Marvin does when he is asked to do so.

[Guest]

Last years version of Dwight Howard that we met in the playoffs (games that count).

Game 1: 21 points, 12 rebs, 80% FG%. 5 blocks.

Game 2: 29 points, 17 rebs, 88% FG%. 1 Block.

Game 3: 21 points, 16 rebs, 75% FG%. 1 Block.

Game 4: 13 points, 8 rebs, 100% FG%. 4 Blocks.

You say Dwight Howard is not a problem? IN what Freakin world?? What I see is a guy who have matured over the years and just dominated our frontline like he was playing high schoolers. Even when we so called stopped him in game 4, he still outscored Horf.

Then when you bring in what Marvin did...

8 points, 9 points, 6 points, 2 points.... This is in the playoffs playing more than 20 minutes per game.

Shaq vs. Boston you say?

11 points (19 mins), 9 points (18 mins), 12 points (22 minutes), 17 points (27 mins), 21 points (26 mins), 11 points, (24 mins).

Make the damn trade!!!

Dwight's numbers vs Cavs in regular seasaon last year:

Nov 11: 11points, 7 rebounds

Feb 11: 19 points, 11 rebounds

Feb 21: 22 points, 16 rebounds

April 11: 22 points, 13 rebounds

This is a quote from one of the games:

"At the other end of the floor, Howard used his youth and agility to wiggle around O'Neal almost at will, slicing through the paint for layups and hook shots and making the elder center sprint down the court"

[Diesel]

Howard can score ALL DAY LONG against us for all I care because he can't beat a team on his own. The problem is the other 4 guys around him shooting 50% or better from 3pt land. That's where we lost the games. You get out there and guard those players instead of letting them have wide open after wide open shot and it's an entirely different series. I'm not saying we don't need another big man but we need our ONLY SF a hell of a lot more than we need a center to compete against ONE TEAM every once in a while and maybe in the playoffs. I know you hate Marvin and would get rid of him for any player in the league but without having someone to replace him it would be absolutely foolish to trade him. And yes I know you don't appreciate the defense that he provides or the willingness to play the 4th or 5th shooter role without complaining and while being treated like crap by the fans but the fact is that you won't find many SF's who can play defense as well as Marvin does that can also score the basketball as much as Marvin does when he is asked to do so.

When you have a big man shooting 100% on you, eventually, your three point shooters will be wide open and will start draining threes. No defense has been created to just let a guy shoot 100% from down low.. You say he can't beat us on his own. I say he can score until he gets tired. We will look like the team who let Wilt get 100.

Or..

We try defending him with a 7 foot 325 pounder who has good footwork. Shaq alone will not stop him, but I doubt he shoots 88 percent with shaq guarding him. Then our other teams members can stop their other team members.

[Admin]

When you have a big man shooting 100% on you, eventually, your three point shooters will be wide open and will start draining threes. No defense has been created to just let a guy shoot 100% from down low.. You say he can't beat us on his own. I say he can score until he gets tired. We will look like the team who let Wilt get 100.

Or..

We try defending him with a 7 foot 325 pounder who has good footwork. Shaq alone will not stop him, but I doubt he shoots 88 percent with shaq guarding him. Then our other teams members can stop their other team members.

What is Dwights career avg FG% against the Hawks? What about against the Bobcats? Because they damn sure held Dwight down like no other in the playoffs. Or other teams who don't start 7' 325 lb centers? I GUARANTEE you that the Magic can be beaten without having Shaq as the starting center. You simply have to defend the other players and have enough depth to be able to absorb fouls against Dwight. It also helps to get Dwight in foul trouble and that is difficult to do when you don't try and score in the paint.

[Diesel]

Dwight's numbers vs Cavs in regular seasaon last year:

Nov 11: 11points, 7 rebounds 42% FG%

Feb 11: 19 points, 11 rebounds 67% FG%

Feb 21: 22 points, 16 rebounds 47% FG%

April 11: 22 points, 13 rebounds Shaq = DNP.. But 70% FG%.

Thought I'd complete your numbers...

Notice... These numbers and notice the FG%s against us in the playoffs. Dwight's lowest FG% against us was 75%.

[Admin]

Nov 11: 11points, 7 rebounds 42% FG%

Feb 11: 19 points, 11 rebounds 67% FG%

Feb 21: 22 points, 16 rebounds 47% FG%

April 11: 22 points, 13 rebounds Shaq = DNP.. But 70% FG%.

Thought I'd complete your numbers...

Notice... These numbers and notice the FG%s against us in the playoffs. Dwight's lowest FG% against us was 75%.

What were his numbers against the Bobcats in the playoffs?

[Guest]

Nov 11: 11points, 7 rebounds 42% FG%

Feb 11: 19 points, 11 rebounds 67% FG%

Feb 21: 22 points, 16 rebounds 47% FG%

April 11: 22 points, 13 rebounds Shaq = DNP.. But 70% FG%.

Thought I'd complete your numbers...

Notice... These numbers and notice the FG%s against us in the playoffs. Dwight's lowest FG% against us was 75%.

Fair enough...but their is no guarantee that we will meet Orlando in the playoffs, just like Cleveland got Shaq to play against the Magic in the playoffs and ended up playing Boston. We do play other teams...Shaq is horrible against the PnR and as big as he is he doesn't rebound and that was one of our problems last year.

[lethalweapon3]

I do agree that trading Shaq for Marvin straight-no-chaser is not prudent when we seem to be competing with nobody except maybe the Knicks for his services. However, I do think if we can do a sign-and-trade to ship Marvin it should involve Jamario or Candace's Big Bro to join the Diesel. Toss in whatever to make the numbers work. I also think Cleveland would be a breath of fresh, cool air for Marvin (and vice versa).

~lw3

[capstone21]

How is Marvin's contract ridiculous? He's making 800k more than the MLE this year and it doesn't go up that much over the remaining few years. Compare that with contracts that have been given out this year and his production easily falls in line and let's not forget that Marvin has been a 15/7 player for us so it's not like he isn't capable of more than earning his 6.5 million this year.

I agree...Marvin has a very reasonable contract. I remember Diesel even being happy with it what MW got signed.

He did have a little bit of an off year but I expect him to have a much better season this year.

We should not trade him for Shaq. Shaq should not be getting 8 million per anyway. Either sign Shaq outright or look for other center options.

[Diesel]

Fair enough...but their is no guarantee that we will meet Orlando in the playoffs, just like Cleveland got Shaq to play against the Magic in the playoffs and ended up playing Boston. We do play other teams...Shaq is horrible against the PnR and as big as he is he doesn't rebound and that was one of our problems last year.

We are versatile. That's why we have Horf... Shaq doesn't have to play against Boston or whoever we meet. He's our Dwight container. What you are saying is let's go with no insurance for Dwight Howard and live with it when he scores over us with 80+% accuracy from the field... or he draws a double and passes out to wide open shooters and they kill us. Right now, we have no answer for Orlando with as much talent as we have. If we get Shaq, we have a better chances against them...at the same time, it doesn't hurt us against other matchups.

[Diesel]

I agree...Marvin has a very reasonable contract. I remember Diesel even being happy with it what MW got signed.

He did have a little bit of an off year but I expect him to have a much better season this year.

We should not trade him for Shaq. Shaq should not be getting 8 million per anyway. Either sign Shaq outright or look for other center options.

Yeah, I was happy because as I said then, he has a good tradable contract. That means that we can't be shy about pulling the trigger on a trade. To me, it's stupid to waste talent and not get anything in return for it.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Fair enough...but their is no guarantee that we will meet Orlando in the playoffs, just like Cleveland got Shaq to play against the Magic in the playoffs and ended up playing Boston. We do play other teams...Shaq is horrible against the PnR and as big as he is he doesn't rebound and that was one of our problems last year.

Actually the reason why we should get Shaq more than anything is because if we make the playoffs we are almost guaranteed to face Orlando not just in the playoffs but in the FIRST ROUND

If Miami gets the 1st seed as they should. That means Hawks and Magic can't do any better than the 4th seed. So one of us is 4th seed and one of us is the 5th seed. We are screwed if we don't have a big who can matchup with Howard.