Jamal Crawford... Longterm Hawk?

[Admin]

I would be surprised if someone did not offer Horford the max. Rudy Gay got the max - and I think a few teams were willing to pay it.

Did Bogut get the max? If so, then I think that is a decent comp.

It's possible that someone could offer the max for Horford, but the max for him is nowhere near what the max for JJ is so it's not nearly as bad.

Worst case would be Horford getting a max contract which I think would be about 13 million starting out with 10.5 percent raises. Durant would be the best comparison for what Horford could get since KD is from the same draft class and just signed an extension for 5 years and 85 million, which is the similar to what Gay got as a RFA this year (5/80). We could still let Mo go and give Crawford a contract for around 7 million per and afford to keep Horford at 13 million.

It would really help a lot if we could find a deal that would shed Bibby's salary for next year though.

[spotatl]

No one knows what the max would be for Horford next season. and this could be good for hte Hawks since it could give him motivation to just go ahead and sign an extension this offseason to lock his contract in under the current CBA. Of course Sund has shown that he has no problem trying to exploit the advantage he has with RFA's so he could try and play hardball with Horford.

[Diesel]

I do think that if they had the opportunity to add a superstar that the ASG would pay the luxury tax to do so. But The problem is that to acquire a superstar you likely would have to take on both the superstar salary and another horribly bad contract and thats the part I don't think the ASG would do.

But Spot, that's still adding a superstar. You need to amend your first statement. ASG won't do anything to add a superstar.

[Diesel]

It's sad that I knew just from reading the title of this topic that not long into it the real purpose of the topic would come out.

Please. Marvin is a cancer. It's a fact that we will have to lose Crawford to keep Marvin.... and it's a shame. You can try to divert the conversation but you can't deny the truth.

[Admin]

Please. Marvin is a cancer. It's a fact that we will have to lose Crawford to keep Marvin.... and it's a shame. You can try to divert the conversation but you can't deny the truth.

You can try and label Marvin a cancer all day long but I've never heard any of his teammates say anything bad about him and I've never seen of nor heard of a coach having a problem with him in a way that could even remotely label him as a cancer. And sorry but it is NOT a fact that we'll have to lose Crawford to keep Marvin but I'd love to hear what evidence you have to support it being a fact.

[buckeye242424]

Please. Marvin is a cancer. It's a fact that we will have to lose Crawford to keep Marvin.... and it's a shame. You can try to divert the conversation but you can't deny the truth.

I think it would be a shame to lose Craws to keep Marvin, and if it plays out that way, I would be disappointed. However, to call Marvin a "cancer" is way off. He does not kill our team. Especially as a teammate. If anything, I think Marvin tries too hard to be a "team" first guy. I think he tries to make everyone else around him happy instead of being more selfish. I'm sure he's not a problem in the locker room either.

Marvin is an average SF. He will never live up to the expectations and his draft pick, but he doesn't kill us when he's on the floor. Nothing great, but nothing horrible either....

[Diesel]

He wants to trade Marvin to make us better and that is all good. Problem is I agree with this in that Crawford is more valuable to our owners as cap releif:

Now if Diesel accounts for ths ASGs cheapness, Marvin could be traded for expirings and then Crawford may very well be kept. But any move that gives us a contract that does not look affordable will not be made IMO.

Signing Big Al next season is concern #1; and tied together like inseparable Siamese twins is concern #2, which is staying under the luxury tax. You have to figure those two things into any trade senario to even have a chance with the ASG.

I agree. Signing Big Al is Job 1. I think however, in order to make the team better, we have to loose ourselves of some dead wood. Marvin, Bibby, and Zaza should be moved for capspace this season. I would actually like to see us resign both Al and Jamal. I think we should reward production... If we can frame a similar contract to Smooves with Jamal, I think that's fair.

As far as Al, if he signs his QO, that's 7.6 Million for next year, but I would follow that up with a 5 year 68 Million dollar deal. That starts at 12 Million per year.

So the place to worry under my plan is 2 years from now 2012-2013. We'd have Joe, Jamal, Smoove, Horf, Teague, and Craw2 signed for 61.1 Million dollars. By then, there will be no more LT, but we'd be over the cap (more than Likely).

If we don't follow my plan.... in 2 years, 2012-2013 we'd have: Joe, Marvin, Zaza, Smoove, Teague, and Craw signed for 50.2 Million dollars. We won't be quite over the LT, but we'd be close and needing a decision on Horf.

You can try and label Marvin a cancer all day long but I've never heard any of his teammates say anything bad about him and I've never seen of nor heard of a coach having a problem with him in a way that could even remotely label him as a cancer. And sorry but it is NOT a fact that we'll have to lose Crawford to keep Marvin but I'd love to hear what evidence you have to support it being a fact.

I'm not talking about a lockerroom cancer, he's a financial/production cancer. Check my post.

[Buzzard]

I agree. Signing Big Al is Job 1. I think however, in order to make the team better, we have to loose ourselves of some dead wood. Marvin, Bibby, and Zaza should be moved for capspace this season. I would actually like to see us resign both Al and Jamal. I think we should reward production... If we can frame a similar contract to Smooves with Jamal, I think that's fair.

As far as Al, if he signs his QO, that's 7.6 Million for next year, but I would follow that up with a 5 year 68 Million dollar deal. That starts at 12 Million per year.

So the place to worry under my plan is 2 years from now 2012-2013. We'd have Joe, Jamal, Smoove, Horf, Teague, and Craw2 signed for 61.1 Million dollars. By then, there will be no more LT, but we'd be over the cap (more than Likely).

If we don't follow my plan.... in 2 years, 2012-2013 we'd have: Joe, Marvin, Zaza, Smoove, Teague, and Craw signed for 50.2 Million dollars. We won't be quite over the LT, but we'd be close and needing a decision on Horf.

72 Million will be Horfs starting offer(s). Just look at what Bogut, Al Jefferson, and David Lee are playing for to get an idea. I would take Horf over all three of them for various reasons. So would a lot of other GMs I think. 72 Million will be Als starting point. If we low ball him like the Suns did JJ, it will only make matters worse.

Rudy Gay got 80 million. Horf will not be signing for much less than that if any less at all.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Buzzard

[Admin]

I'm not talking about a lockerroom cancer, he's a financial/production cancer. Check my post.

Sorry but you are still wrong. Marvin makes less than 1 million more than the MLE this coming season and I can assure you that he'd easily get the full MLE from just about anyone and he'd get more from teams needing a SF.

Proof of how Marvin is not a "financial/production cancer":

Travis Outlaw just got a 5 year 35 million dollar contract and Marvin's best season is better than Outlaws, this past season Marvin was better than Outlaw and in career averages Marvin is better. And over the next 4 years Marvin will only be paid 2 million more than Outlaw.

Tyrus Thomas just got a 5 year 40 million dollar contract and he's never had a season anywhere near as good as Marvin and he's only a couple months younger than Marvin but somehow he'll earn more than Marvin over the next 4 years.

In 07-08 Marvin (his 3rd year) averaged 15 points and 6 rebounds while being at the very least a good defender. Marvin could easily average 15 points again if he wasn't sacrificing his attempts. During 07-08 he had 918 FG attempts and 409 FT attempts but this past season when he slipped another rung down on the ISO-Offense Ladder he only had 664 FG attempts and 215 FT attempts. He shot roughly the same in FG and FT percentages in the 2 years I'm comparing so it's easy to see that it is purely usage that keeps him from being worth significantly more than his contract.

But let me guess, 15 and 6 isn't worth roughly 7.25 million a year, right? Well then why is Rashard Lewis making roughly $20 million for EACH of the next 3 seasons when last year he only averaged 14 points and 4.5 rebounds? The year before that he averaged 17.5 points and 5.5 rebounds so it's not like he dropped off much in the last year. So can you honestly say that Lewis is worth nearly 3 times as much as Marvin? Hell no you can't and that's not even considering that Marvin is a superior defender to Lewis and significantly younger as well.

So now that you've seen PROOF that Marvin isn't even remotely a "financial/production cancer" what will your next argument be?

[Buzzard]

Sorry but you are still wrong. Marvin makes less than 1 million more than the MLE this coming season and I can assure you that he'd easily get the full MLE from just about anyone and he'd get more from teams needing a SF.

Proof of how Marvin is not a "financial/production cancer":

Travis Outlaw just got a 5 year 35 million dollar contract and Marvin's best season is better than Outlaws, this past season Marvin was better than Outlaw and in career averages Marvin is better. And over the next 4 years Marvin will only be paid 2 million more than Outlaw.

Tyrus Thomas just got a 5 year 40 million dollar contract and he's never had a season anywhere near as good as Marvin and he's only a couple months younger than Marvin but somehow he'll earn more than Marvin over the next 4 years.

In 07-08 Marvin (his 3rd year) averaged 15 points and 6 rebounds while being at the very least a good defender. Marvin could easily average 15 points again if he wasn't sacrificing his attempts. During 07-08 he had 918 FG attempts and 409 FT attempts but this past season when he slipped another rung down on the ISO-Offense Ladder he only had 664 FG attempts and 215 FT attempts. He shot roughly the same in FG and FT percentages in the 2 years I'm comparing so it's easy to see that it is purely usage that keeps him from being worth significantly more than his contract.

But let me guess, 15 and 6 isn't worth roughly 7.25 million a year, right? Well then why is Rashard Lewis making roughly $20 million for EACH of the next 3 seasons when last year he only averaged 14 points and 4.5 rebounds? The year before that he averaged 17.5 points and 5.5 rebounds so it's not like he dropped off much in the last year. So can you honestly say that Lewis is worth nearly 3 times as much as Marvin? Hell no you can't and that's not even considering that Marvin is a superior defender to Lewis and significantly younger as well.

So now that you've seen PROOF that Marvin isn't even remotely a "financial/production cancer" what will your next argument be?

Plus 1

I agree with you 100% Dolfan and stats like those above is exactly why Cleveland would love to get him for nothing more than a aging Shaq who has no plans to play for them again anyway. If you look for players who at least average 14 and 6, the forwards/players/contracts you will find are Caron Butler, Andre Iguodala, Gerald Wallace, Luol Deng, our own Josh Smith, and Kevin Durant.

Is it any wonder the ASG is scared to death to trade Marvin at all; much less for a two year rental in Shaq? I am not saying he is as good as all the above. But 14 and 6 does not grow on trees and it is not cheap to come by either.

Here is a challenge, go find one player who has averaged 14 and 6 or better in the last three seasons that makes less money than Marvin.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Buzzard

[Sothron]

I don't like Marvin but I'm not willing to trade him unless we get a superstar SF back (Carmelo) or he's part of another trade and we get a starting quality SF back. His contract after this summer looks very reasonable. All the people who want to trade Marvin for chicken and rice need to realize we have ZERO small forwards on our roster outside of Marvin.

[Diesel]

Crawford is pretty one dimensional and is definitely not worth 10 mill per season. Would consider resigning him for half his current salary though.

When you say 1-dimensional... are you talking about ball handling or scoring or getting to the free throw line?

[Diesel]

If we don't make any major moves this summer, I think we will know his fate during the season. If Marvin does not step up, he will be traded and Jamal will have a shot of staying. I think Bibby and Mo are gone also!

If Marvin doesn't step up, there will be no teams that would want him in a trade? Right now, there are teams that are willing to take Marvin's contract and give us back stuff because they have capspace. Marvin fans want to see one more time if Marvin can produce. Marvin has been on the biggest stage and disappeared, you don't get production from that. What will happen if we don't move now is that we will live out his contract just like we did with Chris Crawford, Ken Norman, and any contract that kept us from being a contender.

[Buzzard]

If Marvin doesn't step up, there will be no teams that would want him in a trade? Right now, there are teams that are willing to take Marvin's contract and give us back stuff because they have capspace. Marvin fans want to see one more time if Marvin can produce. Marvin has been on the biggest stage and disappeared, you don't get production from that. What will happen if we don't move now is that we will live out his contract just like we did with Chris Crawford, Ken Norman, and any contract that kept us from being a contender.

I think the Cavs would take him anytime we wanted. He is a model citizen and apparently a standup guy (no issues from Marvin inside or outside the locker room). IMO he is exactly the type of player Cavs managent is looking for after all the BS Bron showboating they have dealt with the last few years. But Marvin for Shaq straightup is a solid no.

[Peoriabird]

When you say 1-dimensional... are you talking about ball handling or scoring or getting to the free throw line?

You got it he is a hired gun!