Give Marvin a Break(for now)

[terrellgroup]

I have read a lot of post about Marvin and I do understand how frustrating ya get when watching him play. But, in all fairness to Marv. Woody put him in a corner and basically siad, STAY THERE! DON'T MOVE!

Maybe, Drew offense might be what Marv. needs. A continuing ball movement sounds pretty good, lets wait and see before dogging him.

Marvin is not my frustration, mines is getting a FRICKING CENTER, and please NO SHAQ. It is simple, scout the d league and summer teams and get two true centers, none of them have to be offensive minded. Go get a rebounder/shot blocker and a rebounder/big body presence and lets go to work. In addition, go get a strong point guard whose job is to defend. IF Drew offense is any good that it sound, I believe the Hawks would be 4th, maybe 3rd, in the east.

[pimp]

Nope, no break is coming from me.

Why is it that every other player gets blamed for their own shortcoming but when it comes to Marvin and pgs, it's someone else s fault.?

[Admin]

Nope, no break is coming from me.

Why is it that every other player gets blamed for their own shortcoming but when it comes to Marvin and pgs, it's someone else s fault.?

I posted this in the Jamal thread but it's entirely about Marvin so why not post it here.

Travis Outlaw just got a 5 year 35 million dollar contract and Marvin's best season is better than Outlaws, this past season Marvin was better than Outlaw and in career averages Marvin is better. And over the next 4 years Marvin will only be paid 2 million more than Outlaw.

Tyrus Thomas just got a 5 year 40 million dollar contract and he's never had a season anywhere near as good as Marvin and he's only a couple months younger than Marvin but somehow he'll earn more than Marvin over the next 4 years.

In 07-08 Marvin (his 3rd year) averaged 15 points and 6 rebounds while being at the very least a good defender. Marvin could easily average 15 points again if he wasn't sacrificing his attempts. During 07-08 he had 918 FG attempts and 409 FT attempts but this past season when he slipped another rung down on the ISO-Offense Ladder he only had 664 FG attempts and 215 FT attempts. He shot roughly the same in FG and FT percentages in the 2 years I'm comparing so it's easy to see that it is purely usage that keeps him from being worth significantly more than his contract.

But let me guess, 15 and 6 isn't worth roughly 7.25 million a year, right? Well then why is Rashard Lewis making roughly $20 million for EACH of the next 3 seasons when last year he only averaged 14 points and 4.5 rebounds? The year before that he averaged 17.5 points and 5.5 rebounds so it's not like he dropped off much in the last year. So can you honestly say that Lewis is worth nearly 3 times as much as Marvin? Hell no you can't and that's not even considering that Marvin is a superior defender to Lewis and significantly younger as well.

[pimp]

Doesn't really matter how much Marvin is getting paid vs other guys.

His contract is fair.It's his disappearing act is what concerns me.

We got far to many 4 pt 3 reb games in 30 mins from him

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I have read a lot of post about Marvin and I do understand how frustrating ya get when watching him play. But, in all fairness to Marv. Woody put him in a corner and basically siad, STAY THERE! DON'T MOVE!

Maybe, Drew offense might be what Marv. needs. A continuing ball movement sounds pretty good, lets wait and see before dogging him.

Marvin is not my frustration, mines is getting a FRICKING CENTER, and please NO SHAQ. It is simple, scout the d league and summer teams and get two true centers, none of them have to be offensive minded. Go get a rebounder/shot blocker and a rebounder/big body presence and lets go to work. In addition, go get a strong point guard whose job is to defend. IF Drew offense is any good that it sound, I believe the Hawks would be 4th, maybe 3rd, in the east.

Man please.

Some of you have been flat out BRAINWASHED into believing that the ONLY problem that this team had, was Woody. You guys are going to be in for a RUDE AWAKENING once the season starts, because some of these same players are going to play the exact same way.

Marvin couldn't make OPEN JUMPSHOTS last year. Marvin wasn't active nearly enough on the defensive end. Why should he ( or anybody else on this team ) get a pass, but he be coddled for yet another year?

Marvin is 6 - 9 . . 235 - 240 lbs. Why can't HE be that 3rd big time rebounder? Why can't HE be the guy that steps up and be the energy player that Childress was?

I could give Marvin the benefit of the doubt, as long as he was making that open jumper. But when he started missing the one shot that he could consistently make, he basically became useless to this team from a dependability standpoint. We couldn't even depend on that dude.

So why ALWAYS blame Woody?

I tell you what. If Woody was the problem here . . . I want to see Marvin average 15 ppg . . while shooting 50% FG and 40% 3FG.

Marvin doesn't deserve any more of a break than anybody else here. Either he steps up and be a consistent role player, or we need to get his butt outta here.

We are a PLAYOFF TEAM . . not a LOTTERY TEAM looking to rebuild. The patience level on players totally change, once you get to be a good team.

[pimp]

Man please.

Some of you have been flat out BRAINWASHED into believing that the ONLY problem that this team had, was Woody. You guys are going to be in for a RUDE AWAKENING once the season starts, because some of these same players are going to play the exact same way.

Marvin couldn't make OPEN JUMPSHOTS last year. Marvin wasn't active nearly enough on the defensive end. Why should he ( or anybody else on this team ) get a pass, but he be coddled for yet another year?

Marvin is 6 - 9 . . 235 - 240 lbs. Why can't HE be that 3rd big time rebounder? Why can't HE be the guy that steps up and be the energy player that Childress was?

I could give Marvin the benefit of the doubt, as long as he was making that open jumper. But when he started missing the one shot that he could consistently make, he basically became useless to this team from a dependability standpoint. We couldn't even depend on that dude.

So why ALWAYS blame Woody?

I tell you what. If Woody was the problem here . . . I want to see Marvin average 15 ppg . . while shooting 50% FG and 40% 3FG.

Marvin doesn't deserve any more of a break than anybody else here. Either he steps up and be a consistent role player, or we need to get his butt outta here.

We are a PLAYOFF TEAM . . not a LOTTERY TEAM looking to rebuild. The patience level on players totally change, once you get to be a good team.

+1 :thumbsupsmileyanim:

[terrellgroup]

Man please.

Some of you have been flat out BRAINWASHED into believing that the ONLY problem that this team had, was Woody. You guys are going to be in for a RUDE AWAKENING once the season starts, because some of these same players are going to play the exact same way.

Marvin couldn't make OPEN JUMPSHOTS last year. Marvin wasn't active nearly enough on the defensive end. Why should he ( or anybody else on this team ) get a pass, but he be coddled for yet another year?

Marvin is 6 - 9 . . 235 - 240 lbs. Why can't HE be that 3rd big time rebounder? Why can't HE be the guy that steps up and be the energy player that Childress was?

I could give Marvin the benefit of the doubt, as long as he was making that open jumper. But when he started missing the one shot that he could consistently make, he basically became useless to this team from a dependability standpoint. We couldn't even depend on that dude.

So why ALWAYS blame Woody?

I tell you what. If Woody was the problem here . . . I want to see Marvin average 15 ppg . . while shooting 50% FG and 40% 3FG.

Marvin doesn't deserve any more of a break than anybody else here. Either he steps up and be a consistent role player, or we need to get his butt outta here.

We are a PLAYOFF TEAM . . not a LOTTERY TEAM looking to rebuild. The patience level on players totally change, once you get to be a good team.

By no means am I taking up for Marvin. What I am saying is that perhaps Marvin needs some type of set offense, Woody was a free style for JJ coach. Maybe this coach will bring some balance to the offense.

About Marvin jumper, who ever said that he was a pure shooter. And to be honest the whole team did not go the basket except Smoove. So the entire team needs so offensive coaching. Smooove and Childress are players that takes whatever they get, Marvin might need some structure offense, we shall see.

[Dejay]

Man please.

Some of you have been flat out BRAINWASHED into believing that the ONLY problem that this team had, was Woody. You guys are going to be in for a RUDE AWAKENING once the season starts, because some of these same players are going to play the exact same way.

Marvin couldn't make OPEN JUMPSHOTS last year. Marvin wasn't active nearly enough on the defensive end. Why should he ( or anybody else on this team ) get a pass, but he be coddled for yet another year?

Marvin is 6 - 9 . . 235 - 240 lbs. Why can't HE be that 3rd big time rebounder? Why can't HE be the guy that steps up and be the energy player that Childress was?

I could give Marvin the benefit of the doubt, as long as he was making that open jumper. But when he started missing the one shot that he could consistently make, he basically became useless to this team from a dependability standpoint. We couldn't even depend on that dude.

So why ALWAYS blame Woody?

I tell you what. If Woody was the problem here . . . I want to see Marvin average 15 ppg . . while shooting 50% FG and 40% 3FG.

Marvin doesn't deserve any more of a break than anybody else here. Either he steps up and be a consistent role player, or we need to get his butt outta here.

We are a PLAYOFF TEAM . . not a LOTTERY TEAM looking to rebuild. The patience level on players totally change, once you get to be a good team.

The force is strong with this lad. Now, let go of your anger and join the dark side..... :angry22:

Edited July 20, 2010 by Dejay

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL @ DeJay.

I'm just saying . . . . what people are saying now, is the exact same thing Philly was thinking when they hired Eddie Jordan and his "Princeton Offense". Then, when his offense didn't transform that Philly team into a good offense, they blamed Jordan and fired him.

But the real problem in Philly, was that they had a bunch of inconsistent shooters and post players on that team.

So if a few players don't rasie their level of play within Drew's offense, they better not dare blame Drew. They better put full responsibility on that player.

All I'm asking out of Marvin, is to play consistent basketball. If he and Bibby were more consistent last year, JJ averages close to 6 assists a game easily, because those were the two guys left wide open on most occasions.

[MaceCase]

Why do you blame a coach, hmm let's see. You have a player whose jumpshot has been off all year but he is shooting a career high from inside so what's the gameplan? Have him continue to sit at the corner 3 point line where the opposing defense know he is no longer effective from thus, you know, why he is left open for all those jumpers. Come on North, we all know you are nutty for Woody and would rather this team fail just to validate the guy but there is no way you can justify a coach not realizing where his players are and aren't effective from and adjusting. This doesn't just go for Marvin, It's gone for Smoove, It's gone for Joe and it's the number one reason why he wasn't resigned, the man doesn't know how to adjust to save his life. Any and every poster on this board can give you a rundown of Woody's plays, his sub patterns, his sets, his timeouts, etc without fail and you think a seasoned NBA vet or coach couldn't? The draft is no longer relevant, the "long" list of players "better" than him has been disputed, and his contract has been deemed fair for his production so why does it continue? So the guy is average, get's paid averagely and produces averagely yet he receives an above average amount of posts as though he is the root of all evil. I don't get it but I guess it's a popular trend so this thread was made in vain.

[Peoriabird]

Why do you blame a coach, hmm let's see. You have a player whose jumpshot has been off all year but he is shooting a career high from inside so what's the gameplan? Have him continue to sit at the corner 3 point line where the opposing defense know he is no longer effective from thus, you know, why he is left open for all those jumpers. Come on North, we all know you are nutty for Woody and would rather this team fail just to validate the guy but there is no way you can justify a coach not realizing where his players are and aren't effective from and adjusting. This doesn't just go for Marvin, It's gone for Smoove, It's gone for Joe and it's the number one reason why he wasn't resigned, the man doesn't know how to adjust to save his life. Any and every poster on this board can give you a rundown of Woody's plays, his sub patterns, his sets, his timeouts, etc without fail and you think a seasoned NBA vet or coach couldn't? The draft is no longer relevant, the "long" list of players "better" than him has been disputed, and his contract has been deemed fair for his production so why does it continue? So the guy is average, get's paid averagely and produces averagely yet he receives an above average amount of posts as though he is the root of all evil. I don't get it but I guess it's a popular trend so this thread was made in vain.

Agree with the above post

[Diesel]

I posted this in the Jamal thread but it's entirely about Marvin so why not post it here.

Travis Outlaw just got a 5 year 35 million dollar contract and Marvin's best season is better than Outlaws, this past season Marvin was better than Outlaw and in career averages Marvin is better. And over the next 4 years Marvin will only be paid 2 million more than Outlaw.

Dol, what if there were no Marvin here and Sund paid Outlaw 5 years 35 Million? What would you have said?

The problem is that you want ot justify Marvin by pointing to other players with bad contracts and saying... Look, this gimp got a 5 yr 35 Million dollar deal. Marvin's deal isn't that bad.

Tyrus Thomas just got a 5 year 40 million dollar contract and he's never had a season anywhere near as good as Marvin and he's only a couple months younger than Marvin but somehow he'll earn more than Marvin over the next 4 years.

Again Dol... What has Thomas done to earn this contract. Say it with me... Nothing. If Sund would have signed Thomas at 5 years 40 Million, you would have pitched a b*tch. Therefore this can't be justification for Marivn.

In 07-08 Marvin (his 3rd year) averaged 15 points and 6 rebounds while being at the very least a good defender. Marvin could easily average 15 points again if he wasn't sacrificing his attempts. During 07-08 he had 918 FG attempts and 409 FT attempts but this past season when he slipped another rung down on the ISO-Offense Ladder he only had 664 FG attempts and 215 FT attempts. He shot roughly the same in FG and FT percentages in the 2 years I'm comparing so it's easy to see that it is purely usage that keeps him from being worth significantly more than his contract.

But let me guess, 15 and 6 isn't worth roughly 7.25 million a year, right? Well then why is Rashard Lewis making roughly $20 million for EACH of the next 3 seasons when last year he only averaged 14 points and 4.5 rebounds? The year before that he averaged 17.5 points and 5.5 rebounds so it's not like he dropped off much in the last year. So can you honestly say that Lewis is worth nearly 3 times as much as Marvin? Hell no you can't and that's not even considering that Marvin is a superior defender to Lewis and significantly younger as well.

Again, point out Rashard Lewis.. The mother of all overpaid, one dimensional dudes....

Try this one... Marvin makes more than NBA champion Ron Artest and Trevor Ariza.

Last year: Ariza - 14.9 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 39.4% shooting, 34.4% from 3.

Last year we saw how Artest stepped up in the playoffs. He's the reason LAL has rings. If you want to talk about playing good defense, then here's the guy. People hate playing against Artest. Not Marvin.

[Diesel]

Why do you blame a coach, hmm let's see. You have a player whose jumpshot has been off all year but he is shooting a career high from inside so what's the gameplan? Have him continue to sit at the corner 3 point line where the opposing defense know he is no longer effective from thus, you know, why he is left open for all those jumpers. Come on North, we all know you are nutty for Woody and would rather this team fail just to validate the guy but there is no way you can justify a coach not realizing where his players are and aren't effective from and adjusting. This doesn't just go for Marvin, It's gone for Smoove, It's gone for Joe and it's the number one reason why he wasn't resigned, the man doesn't know how to adjust to save his life. Any and every poster on this board can give you a rundown of Woody's plays, his sub patterns, his sets, his timeouts, etc without fail and you think a seasoned NBA vet or coach couldn't? The draft is no longer relevant, the "long" list of players "better" than him has been disputed, and his contract has been deemed fair for his production so why does it continue? So the guy is average, get's paid averagely and produces averagely yet he receives an above average amount of posts as though he is the root of all evil. I don't get it but I guess it's a popular trend so this thread was made in vain.

This is a terrible assumption Craw. I say that because those times that Joe played Sf, he didn't go to the corner? If this was Woody's gameplan, then why isn't it systematic? Probably because it wasn't a system. Marvin's own preference (and his personality) is to get out of the way. When J-Chill was here, he didn't stay in the corner. He worked the baseline. Why doesn't Marvin do that? There's a lot of assumptions about what Woody coached Marvin to do, I think the truth is that Marvin feel in love with being by himself in the corner...and defenses let him have that shot.

[terrellgroup]

This is a terrible assumption Craw. I say that because those times that Joe played Sf, he didn't go to the corner? If this was Woody's gameplan, then why isn't it systematic? Probably because it wasn't a system. Marvin's own preference (and his personality) is to get out of the way. When J-Chill was here, he didn't stay in the corner. He worked the baseline. Why doesn't Marvin do that? There's a lot of assumptions about what Woody coached Marvin to do, I think the truth is that Marvin feel in love with being by himself in the corner...and defenses let him have that shot.

Then it is still Woody's fault for allowing Marvin to stay in the corner.

There is no way any one can guage Marvin's decision making and over all skills, until he gets on the floor this season.

It is my opinion that Woody either allowed Marvin to say in the corner or instructed him to. Either way Woody has apart to play in Marvin's last year production.

I am relieved to see Woody go.

Now get SOME centers! TWO OF THEM, PLEASE!!!

[SmooveTheFuture]

um noooooo marvin is a bust he deserves everything he gets

[Admin]

Try this one... Marvin makes more than NBA champion Ron Artest and Trevor Ariza.

Last year: Ariza - 14.9 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 39.4% shooting, 34.4% from 3.

Last year we saw how Artest stepped up in the playoffs. He's the reason LAL has rings. If you want to talk about playing good defense, then here's the guy. People hate playing against Artest. Not Marvin.

Well first off you obviously don't understand supply and demand as it's abundantly clear that what Marvin supplies in terms of production is in demand in the NBA since guys who are less productive than he is are making as much and in some cases much, much more than him. The point of me showing those guys that I listed earlier is that you are extremely unlikely to match Marvin's production for less money than we're paying him and I damn sure guarantee that they won't find someone who wouldn't complain about watching the ISO Joe and Crawford show or the Smoove 3pt construction company the way that Marvin remains quiet and a good teammate.

But let's look at your chosen players here since you want to ignore the facts on what Marvin is worth in the NBA.

For Ariza to average 14.9 PPG with the Rockets last year he had to attempt 1,000 FG's and he shot under 40%. In 07-08 when Marvin took a comparable amount of shots (actually 81 less) he averaged 14.8 PPG and averaged 5.7 RPG (Ariza averged 5.6 FYI) and Marvin played 2 less minutes per game and shot 46% and also shot nearly 20% higher at the FT line while making twice as many as Ariza. In fact the only thing Ariza did better than Marvin was shoot the 3, although Marvin only attempted 10 for the season and came back the next season to shoot a higher 3pt% than Ariza has ever shot in his career. Now if you'd like to talk salary Marvin will average roughly 500k more per season over the next 4 seasons than Ariza will. Ariza is also shorter, weaker, older and has missed a hell of a lot more games in his career than Marvin.

Now for Artest ... first off I'd like to mention that the Lakers won the title the year before with Ariza in his place and did it against an arguably better Orlando team and in fewer games, and we've already established that Ariza isn't quite as valuable as Marvin is, so let's not try and make it sound like Artest is the reason why the Lakers won the championship here. And I'd argue that if you put Marvin in the SF spot for the Lakers that they would have won the championship last year and this year just as they did with Ariza and Artest. Now as far as defense is concerned there's no doubt that Artest is the better player, but offensively he's not better than Marvin and at best you can argue that they're comparable at this stage of their careers.

[Diesel]

Then it is still Woody's fault for allowing Marvin to stay in the corner.

There is no way any one can guage Marvin's decision making and over all skills, until he gets on the floor this season.

It is my opinion that Woody either allowed Marvin to say in the corner or instructed him to. Either way Woody has apart to play in Marvin's last year production.

I am relieved to see Woody go.

Now get SOME centers! TWO OF THEM, PLEASE!!!

I don't disagree about Woody being at fault. The bottom line is that Woody didn't care about offense as long as it didn't bother his defense. Still, when others played Sf, there was nobody who imitated what Marvin did. That tells me that Marvin chose to get out of the way.

[Diesel]

Well first off you obviously don't understand supply and demand as it's abundantly clear that what Marvin supplies in terms of production is in demand in the NBA since guys who are less productive than he is are making as much and in some cases much, much more than him.

We've been shopping Marvin. No takers yet. So much for the demand.

[Chickenstanley]

The only two bright spots I see in Marvin's game are above average on-ball defense and a decent ability to finish in transition. There is NO excuse for his lack of rebounding. Marvin has good hops and is more than capable of snagging (quite intimidating) rebounds against virtually anybody. But these are few and far between. His outside shot is "not what it used to be" --- based on this past year, anyway. ( I personally watched Marvin miss 11 straight jumpers while warming-up before a game that I attended this year --- most of us could do better than that -- for much less than $7 million per annum, I'm sure)

Marvin is also quite clumsy and is a complete embarrasment when attempting any dribble-drive move in a half-court set. Hopefully LD will get the team running and play and Marvin's strength of finishing on the break --- or at least on the move. Otherwise he is useless in a halfcourt offensive set, imo.

I'm very dissapointed in the situation with Childress. What the Hawks got for him was beyond ridiculous. I understand the politics involved, but Childress was a guy who made things happen -- and would be a "must-pick" for me if I were picking a squad. To me, the Hawks haven't been nearly the "energetic, very athletic, exiting" team that played (as advertised) against Boston in the 2008 series --- and I think that the loss of Childress is at least partly responsible for that. I can't count the times when I could hardly believe what this guy "swooped-in" and did --- seemingly out of nowhere. I mean, really --- a second round pick in exchange for a starter/top 6th man ? There can no defense of ASG on this one unless they've got something really serious up their sleeve that they haven't revealed as of yet.

CS

[MaceCase]

This is a terrible assumption Craw. I say that because those times that Joe played Sf, he didn't go to the corner? If this was Woody's gameplan, then why isn't it systematic? Probably because it wasn't a system. Marvin's own preference (and his personality) is to get out of the way. When J-Chill was here, he didn't stay in the corner. He worked the baseline. Why doesn't Marvin do that? There's a lot of assumptions about what Woody coached Marvin to do, I think the truth is that Marvin feel in love with being by himself in the corner...and defenses let him have that shot.

You continue with this nonsensical argument that Woody dictated that the SF position stand in the corner and not the particular player. Joe could play Center and the ball would still be in his hands because he is Joe and Woody's offense revolves around him no matter what position he is in on the court. When Joe was in with Jamal you were number one in clamoring about Joe never passing to Jamal, well Diesel, where exactly was Jamal standing when he allegedly wasn't receiving passes from Joe? Bibby is our PG yet can you tell me what area of the court he occupies when Joe Johnson is in the game? It is systematic and there is no way you can argue that the offense was not built around 4 players spacing the floor so that Joe can work his ISO to the point that the number one thing our starting Center worked on last offseason was his 18 footer and our starting PF continues to jack up jumpers despite being the worst shooter in the league. Invent all the reasons to hate the guy you want but it's hard for me to believe that Woody was just letting Marvin freelance all these years without correcting his behavior or benching him unless that's what he wanted out of him all along.