My apology to ALL Hawks fans living in Metro Atlanta

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I apologize to all of those fans of the Hawks that I have ripped going on 2 years now, for not stepping up more as fans.

While I still believe everything that I've said about fan responsibility over the years, I will NEVER AGAIN criticize the people and fans in Atlanta for not supporting this team more.

This ownership group and the GM gives you NO REASON WHATSOEVER to believe that they truly want to bring a real winner to Atlanta. They just don't.

We potentially have 2 of the top 5 teams in our own division, and these guys act like everything is gonna be alright. Sund is over there singing songs . . like he's Chante Moore and ish. ( Go youtube "Chante Moore - Alright", if you don't know what I'm talking about )

I'll still make my 5 to 10 trips a year to see the team because I like watching the Hawks live and in person. But no more criticizing what others do with their money concerning the Hawks.

Shame on them for bringing up Detroit and San Antonio as the "models" that they're going by. Hell . . we haven't even reached an Eastern Conference Final yet with the Hawks in Atlanta, yet, he wants to make comparions to Detroit and San Antonio?

GTFOH with that. Sund must think the entire fan base are complete idiots, by making a statement like that.

So once again, I apologize to you men and women who took offense to my rants about the fans. This organiization is flat out afraid to take risks. That means that THEY are not a "championship caliber ownership".

(( bleep )) them.

[Uncaged]

I apologize to all of those fans of the Hawks that I have ripped going on 2 years now, for not stepping up more as fans.

While I still believe everything that I've said about fan responsibility over the years, I will NEVER AGAIN criticize the people and fans in Atlanta for not supporting this team more.

This ownership group and the GM gives you NO REASON WHATSOEVER to believe that they truly want to bring a real winner to Atlanta. They just don't.

We potentially have 2 of the top 5 teams in our own division, and these guys act like everything is gonna be alright. Sund is over there singing songs . . like he's Chante Moore and ish. ( Go youtube "Chante Moore - Alright", if you don't know what I'm talking about )

I'll still make my 5 to 10 trips a year to see the team because I like watching the Hawks live and in person. But no more criticizing what others do with their money concerning the Hawks.

Shame on them for bringing up Detroit and San Antonio as the "models" that they're going by. Hell . . we haven't even reached an Eastern Conference Final yet with the Hawks in Atlanta, yet, he wants to make comparions to Detroit and San Antonio?

GTFOH with that. Sund must think the entire fan base are complete idiots, by making a statement like that.

So once again, I apologize to you men and women who took offense to my rants about the fans. This organiization is flat out afraid to take risks. That means that THEY are not a "championship caliber ownership".

(( bleep )) them.

I don't live in the Metro Area but i feel ya. Why should anyone spend say $45 to $70 on a ticket 41 times a yIear to watch a team that is good, but not on a championship level. It's one thing to be bad but to have the talent to win and have an ownership that is just content to house 3 playoff games a year is another thing. I don't know what it is about this franchise. I think the only time the Hawks took a big risk to shake things up was in 1999 when they traded Mookie and Smitty for essentially JT and JR Rider. Ya it didnt quite work out and those moves set the Hawks back for years, but it was at least a MOVE. Tell me another team in the NBA that has 9 owners with equal voting power and say so in the team. You can't! It's just ridiculous!

[Plainview1981]

I don't live in the Metro Area but i feel ya. Why should anyone spend say $45 to $70 on a ticket 41 times a yIear to watch a team that is good, but not on a championship level. It's one thing to be bad but to have the talent to win and have an ownership that is just content to house 3 playoff games a year is another thing. I don't know what it is about this franchise. I think the only time the Hawks took a big risk to shake things up was in 1999 when they traded Mookie and Smitty for essentially JT and JR Rider. Ya it didnt quite work out and those moves set the Hawks back for years, but it was at least a MOVE. Tell me another team in the NBA that has 9 owners with equal voting power and say so in the team. You can't! It's just ridiculous!

Lack of action starts to create a cynical fanbase. You think I'm cynical, well you should check out the Van Halen board. That band has been inactive for basically 12-15 years and the people there are far more cynical than me.

I've had the same attitude toward the Hawks since 2000. Despite some winning seasons, the team has made several mistakes over the years that's simply impossible to ignore.

[BudBall]

GO HAWKS!!!!!!! BELIEVE IN TEAGUE!!!!!!

NOT :white flag: :shake_puter: :help wanted:

[KB21]

What exactly have they done that suggests they don't want to bring a winner to Atlanta? Is it the fact that they aren't willing to pay Shaq based on what is reputation is and not the player he is now?

I have never seen such handwringing over not signing a guy who would make a minimum impact on this team at best. The guy is barely better than a replacement level player at this point, and this ownership group is getting criticized because they don't feel signing Shaq is worth paying the luxury tax.

In this instance, this group is actually exhibiting a conservativeness with their money that they should have exhibited when they decided to grossly overpay to keep Joe Johnson. Somehow, doing that shows that they aren't committed to winning as well. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

There are other things to criticize this team over rather than criticizing them because they would rather sign Shaq at a value he's worth.

For one, they fell into the same trap many Hawks fans fell into with the thought that Joe Johnson means so much to this team that they absolutely had to resign him. As a result, they grossly overpaid for a very good but not true superstar player, and it may ultimately cost them the flexibility to keep the two young guys who do have super star ability on the team together long term.

Second, this group had a flippant outlook on the draft. They have a very good scouting staff who can find talent. The players this scouting staff focused on during the draft all performed very well in summer league action, whether it was Jordan Crawford who they draft, Dominique Jones who they had rated close to even with Jordan Crawford, or Gani Lawal, who looks like he can contribute 10 minutes a game as a rookie on a deep Phoenix Suns team, the players they focused on can all play. The one guy they liked who showed nothing was Daniel Orton, and that's mostly because they fell into another trap many Hawks fans have fallen into. That trap is valuing size over length and athleticism. Rick Sund made a brilliant move in moving down from 24 to 27 to get Jordan Crawford, and picking up the 31st pick was the reason it was brilliant. Trading that pick for nothing ruined the trade. No one can tell me that signing Jason Collins and Josh Powell is more effective on the court and more cost effective than it would have been to just draft Gani Lawal or Jarvis Varnado with the 31st pick.

There are definitely things this group can be criticized on. Not signing Shaq and not spending money they don't have isn't one of them.

[DJlaysitup]

I apologize to all of those fans of the Hawks that I have ripped going on 2 years now, for not stepping up more as fans.

Your apology is accepted and documented. Your other transgressions are still on appeal so they cannot be discussed at this time :biggrin: .

Seriously though, it IS difficult to stay positive within the ownership constraints we know we have. We also seem to miss opportunities so often...simply can't "strike when the iron is hot"...now there are very limited F/A options at the positions we need so I guess it's just go with last years team + a good looking rook.

I certainly can't simply dismiss the fact that we won 53 games last year (often in dominating/entertaining fashion). That was an accomplishment. But the next year could be different. Last year the East was relatively weak and teams were saving up for the lottery (F/A lottery)....not making moves. This year we will have Team King Kong in MIA and a much better Bulls team as well as NYK....of course the Cavs are now a mess and should be out of the mix.

At least we can get Hawks games on radio outside the perimeter though.

We still have a very competitive team.

Edited July 22, 2010 by DJlaysitup

[Uncaged]

Signing Shaq is not the issue here. I happen to be one who is glad ASG is playing harball with. Why break the bank and go into the luxury tax for a 2 year rental at best who can only give you 20 mpg with severly eroding skills. My issue with the ASG is the fact that they sell this dream that our team as currently constructed will compete for a title, when the average fan knows that's far from truth. The track record speaks for itself. When can you honestly say that the Atlanta Hawks have been aggressive in the pursuit for a championship. Other teams are filling out their rosters with players who have proven NBA resumes. What do we do? We fill the 10-13th spot with D Leaguers and Summer League invites. Maybe Sund will prove us wrong and is quietly making some legitimate moves. But I cant get excited over Jason Collins and a Summer League Invitee when we need much more than that...

[Plainview1981]

What exactly have they done that suggests they don't want to bring a winner to Atlanta? Is it the fact that they aren't willing to pay Shaq based on what is reputation is and not the player he is now?

I have never seen such handwringing over not signing a guy who would make a minimum impact on this team at best. The guy is barely better than a replacement level player at this point, and this ownership group is getting criticized because they don't feel signing Shaq is worth paying the luxury tax.

In this instance, this group is actually exhibiting a conservativeness with their money that they should have exhibited when they decided to grossly overpay to keep Joe Johnson. Somehow, doing that shows that they aren't committed to winning as well. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

There are other things to criticize this team over rather than criticizing them because they would rather sign Shaq at a value he's worth.

For one, they fell into the same trap many Hawks fans fell into with the thought that Joe Johnson means so much to this team that they absolutely had to resign him. As a result, they grossly overpaid for a very good but not true superstar player, and it may ultimately cost them the flexibility to keep the two young guys who do have super star ability on the team together long term.

Second, this group had a flippant outlook on the draft. They have a very good scouting staff who can find talent. The players this scouting staff focused on during the draft all performed very well in summer league action, whether it was Jordan Crawford who they draft, Dominique Jones who they had rated close to even with Jordan Crawford, or Gani Lawal, who looks like he can contribute 10 minutes a game as a rookie on a deep Phoenix Suns team, the players they focused on can all play. The one guy they liked who showed nothing was Daniel Orton, and that's mostly because they fell into another trap many Hawks fans have fallen into. That trap is valuing size over length and athleticism. Rick Sund made a brilliant move in moving down from 24 to 27 to get Jordan Crawford, and picking up the 31st pick was the reason it was brilliant. Trading that pick for nothing ruined the trade. No one can tell me that signing Jason Collins and Josh Powell is more effective on the court and more cost effective than it would have been to just draft Gani Lawal or Jarvis Varnado with the 31st pick.

There are definitely things this group can be criticized on. Not signing Shaq and not spending money they don't have isn't one of them.

What have they done to improve this team?

NOTHING. If they don't have money to spend, sell the franchsies. Owners that can't afford to spend have NO BUSINESS owning a franchise. They continue to PROVE through their lack of action that they can't make this team into anything more than it was in 1998. They should be a way to FORCE them to sell the team. They have no right owning a team at all.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[KB21]

Signing Shaq is not the issue here. I happen to be one who is glad ASG is playing harball with. Why break the bank and go into the luxury tax for a 2 year rental at best who can only give you 20 mpg with severly eroding skills. My issue with the ASG is the fact that they sell this dream that our team as currently constructed will compete for a title, when the average fan knows that's far from truth. The track record speaks for itself. When can you honestly say that the Atlanta Hawks have been aggressive in the pursuit for a championship. Other teams are filling out their rosters with players who have proven NBA resumes. What do we do? We fill the 10-13th spot with D Leaguers and Summer League invites. Maybe Sund will prove us wrong and is quietly making some legitimate moves. But I cant get excited over Jason Collins and a Summer League Invitee when we need much more than that...

Which players in that 10th to 13th spot on this roster played on the Hawks summer league team or played in a summer league at all this summer? None, and that's part of the problem, IMO. There is too much reliance upon veteran players, even if those veterans don't give the team anymore than what a D-Leaguer or a Summer League player would give them. Signing Jason Collins, Josh Powell, or Kwame Brown to fill the end of the bench slots on the team is a waste. These guys are not going to make an impact on this team, and they don't have the potential to make an impact on this team down the road. I would much rather give one of those spots to a guy like Alade Aminu, who wouldn't contribute this year but could develop into a solid role player with his length and athleticism down the road than to use it on a veteran player who isn't going to help this team.

When has this group been aggressive in the pursuit of a championship? How about when they gave Joe Johnson a 6 year, $123 million contract this summer when they could have easily just let him go to Chicago or New York? Somehow, that gets ignored here.

[KB21]

What have they done to improve this team?

NOTHING. If they don't have money to spend, sell the franchsies. Owners that can't afford to spend have NO BUSINESS owning a franchise. They continue to PROVE through their lack of action that they can't make this team into anything more than it was in 1998. They should be a way to FORCE them to sell the team. They have no right owning a team at all.

I know this may be difficult for you to understand, but there is such a thing in the NBA as a salary cap. You see, this prevents teams from just throwing money around and signing whoever they want to sign.

Maybe there is hope for you though. Maybe Obama will buy the Hawks. He will need a job in a couple of years, and he has no problem with throwing money around that he doesn't have.

[Plainview1981]

I know this may be difficult for you to understand, but there is such a thing in the NBA as a salary cap. You see, this prevents teams from just throwing money around and signing whoever they want to sign.

Maybe there is hope for you though. Maybe Obama will buy the Hawks. He will need a job in a couple of years, and he has no problem with throwing money around that he doesn't have.

Lots of other teams make moves to improve their team.

Oh wait.... Maybe if they didn't have deadweight like Mike Bibby, ZaZa Pachula, and Marvin Williams on the team they could make deals. If you're capped out with a team that is only talented as this team, you've done a poor job. It's that simple. The Hawks aren't talented enough that they should be capped out. Jamal Crawford aside, this team is strapped for at least 5 years. That's what I told you would happen 3 or 4 years ago. I told you this is the road this team would end up at. And now their here... Capped out and unable to improve a team that can BARELY get out of the first round.

This team is stuck in the 2nd round just as they were the last two teams they tried to build a team.

I picture Jamal will be gone next year so they can keep Al... Then, Jordan Crawford will be the 6th man and the team will be the same as it is now and it will be that way until this team has a firesale in 2-4 years.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[Uncaged]

Which players in that 10th to 13th spot on this roster played on the Hawks summer league team or played in a summer league at all this summer? None, and that's part of the problem, IMO. There is too much reliance upon veteran players, even if those veterans don't give the team anymore than what a D-Leaguer or a Summer League player would give them. Signing Jason Collins, Josh Powell, or Kwame Brown to fill the end of the bench slots on the team is a waste. These guys are not going to make an impact on this team, and they don't have the potential to make an impact on this team down the road. I would much rather give one of those spots to a guy like Alade Aminu, who wouldn't contribute this year but could develop into a solid role player with his length and athleticism down the road than to use it on a veteran player who isn't going to help this team.

When has this group been aggressive in the pursuit of a championship? How about when they gave Joe Johnson a 6 year, $123 million contract this summer when they could have easily just let him go to Chicago or New York? Somehow, that gets ignored here.

I am by no means opposed to having a D Leaguer or Summer Leaguer fill out the roster. But I think you better have intentions on developing that player and not just letting him be window dressing. If i had a choice of a proven NBA vet who can step in and provide you with a spark or a raw D Leauge, I'd take the vet all day long. We simply have put ourselves in a position where we have no choice but to fill out the roster with unproven talent. And as far as Joe's contract signing is concerned, they were so quick to offer him the max, not considering the other needs on this roster. I know he was priority number 1, but why hand tie your GM with the bare minimum just to sign a player who will be 35 at the end of his deal and has not proven to be worthy of that type of contract? Joe Johnson is great but he he is not a once in a lifetime talent.

[KB21]

I am by no means opposed to having a D Leaguer or Summer Leaguer fill out the roster. But I think you better have intentions on developing that player and not just letting him be window dressing. If i had a choice of a proven NBA vet who can step in and provide you with a spark or a raw D Leauge, I'd take the vet all day long. We simply have put ourselves in a position where we have no choice but to fill out the roster with unproven talent. And as far as Joe's contract signing is concerned, they were so quick to offer him the max, not considering the other needs on this roster. I know he was priority number 1, but why hand tie your GM with the bare minimum just to sign a player who will be 35 at the end of his deal and has not proven to be worthy of that type of contract? Joe Johnson is great but he he is not a once in a lifetime talent.

I agree that Joe is not worth the contract he got, but I think Joe getting that contract is a function of the NBA as a whole. Amare Stoudemire isn't worth the contract he got either, but he got it because that's what the market set for him. The Hawks knew that if they didn't offer the max, they were likely going to lose Joe Johnson, and it was their throught process that they couldn't afford to lose him.

Here's the thing though. Had they let him go, they wouldn't have had anymore flexibility to go out and fill the other needs on the team than they do now. So, basically we are looking at a team with holes with Joe Johnson or a team with holes without Joe Johnson. The difference is, without Joe Johnson, we would have had cap flexibility down the road.

Again though. I don't see anything that suggests this ownership group doesn't want to field a championship team. I guarantee you that if a deal can be made to bring Chris Paul here, the Hawks will make that deal, or if they could get a Danny Granger, they would do it. The thing is, it is easy for fans to say so and so should make a trade for Chris Paul or Danny Granger. Getting a deal done is a lot harder though.

[Chickenstanley]

Do we really have to go back to Kwame? I mean, IF KWAME is GONE (when we pick), then (and ONLY then do we) proceed to some plan B. Sorry, couldn't resist :)

And just for the record, I wanted Eddie Griffin ---- which goes to show how completely ignorant we all can be when it comes to the draft. I think building by the draft "might" one of those things that seems like the perfect plan --- but only in retrospect.

Anyway, players 10 -13 aren't going to win championships or playoff series for you. But they may help you to some regular season wins --- especially in the case of injuries. It's hard to imagine a legitimate organization would have given Jason Collins a contract last year, considering the shape he was in. And it's equally hard to imagine that even the ASG would do this again. This wouldn't even give the appearance of making an effort to improve.

I actually like Josh Powell. Decent player -- but not a key to reach the ECF.

I repeat, unless this team learns to WIN ON THE ROAD, it will not stand a chance of winning more than two games in the second round ---- and also be a huge threat to lose in the first round.

That Detroit team was hell on the road. They laughed at superstar-led teams for years. Had no legitimate superstars themselves (that is --- until AFTER they completely humiliated the Shaq/Kobe/Jackson Lakers). Then a few of their players were considered "elite". It was 100% TEAM and a lockdown defense. And that can (and did) defeat the biggest superstar team since the Jordan Bulls. So, enough with all this "you have to have a superstar" logic. That was proven false in this very era. Yes, having that "superstar" or two certainly plays to the odds, but it can be done other ways. Play the hand you are dealt.

WIN ON THE ROAD --- and you will never have any doubt that you can win any game, against anyone, anytime, anywhere. No road/no contender.

CS

[Uncaged]

I agree that Joe is not worth the contract he got, but I think Joe getting that contract is a function of the NBA as a whole. Amare Stoudemire isn't worth the contract he got either, but he got it because that's what the market set for him. The Hawks knew that if they didn't offer the max, they were likely going to lose Joe Johnson, and it was their throught process that they couldn't afford to lose him.

Here's the thing though. Had they let him go, they wouldn't have had anymore flexibility to go out and fill the other needs on the team than they do now. So, basically we are looking at a team with holes with Joe Johnson or a team with holes without Joe Johnson. The difference is, without Joe Johnson, we would have had cap flexibility down the road.

Again though. I don't see anything that suggests this ownership group doesn't want to field a championship team. I guarantee you that if a deal can be made to bring Chris Paul here, the Hawks will make that deal, or if they could get a Danny Granger, they would do it. The thing is, it is easy for fans to say so and so should make a trade for Chris Paul or Danny Granger. Getting a deal done is a lot harder though.

I agree with you that the consequenses of not having Joe Johnson would be worse than those with him under a max deal. I just wish they would've been realistic with his contract figures and considered the other needs. But i disagree that the ASG's main priority is winning a championship. Saving money seems to be their main objective and you just can't operate a million dollar business that way. You don't hear San Antonio's owner or the Laker's GM talk all day about avoiding the luxury tax or selling 2nd round picks like its a yard sale. Championships are their bottom line. You can't have 9 different people with equal say so running a professional basketball team. Doesn't work well. Go back 30 years and name me one team that won the NBA title with shaky ownership. You won't find it.

[Buzzard]

What exactly have they done that suggests they don't want to bring a winner to Atlanta? Is it the fact that they aren't willing to pay Shaq based on what is reputation is and not the player he is now?

I have never seen such handwringing over not signing a guy who would make a minimum impact on this team at best. The guy is barely better than a replacement level player at this point, and this ownership group is getting criticized because they don't feel signing Shaq is worth paying the luxury tax.

In this instance, this group is actually exhibiting a conservativeness with their money that they should have exhibited when they decided to grossly overpay to keep Joe Johnson. Somehow, doing that shows that they aren't committed to winning as well. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

There are other things to criticize this team over rather than criticizing them because they would rather sign Shaq at a value he's worth.

For one, they fell into the same trap many Hawks fans fell into with the thought that Joe Johnson means so much to this team that they absolutely had to resign him. As a result, they grossly overpaid for a very good but not true superstar player, and it may ultimately cost them the flexibility to keep the two young guys who do have super star ability on the team together long term.

Second, this group had a flippant outlook on the draft. They have a very good scouting staff who can find talent. The players this scouting staff focused on during the draft all performed very well in summer league action, whether it was Jordan Crawford who they draft, Dominique Jones who they had rated close to even with Jordan Crawford, or Gani Lawal, who looks like he can contribute 10 minutes a game as a rookie on a deep Phoenix Suns team, the players they focused on can all play. The one guy they liked who showed nothing was Daniel Orton, and that's mostly because they fell into another trap many Hawks fans have fallen into. That trap is valuing size over length and athleticism. Rick Sund made a brilliant move in moving down from 24 to 27 to get Jordan Crawford, and picking up the 31st pick was the reason it was brilliant. Trading that pick for nothing ruined the trade. No one can tell me that signing Jason Collins and Josh Powell is more effective on the court and more cost effective than it would have been to just draft Gani Lawal or Jarvis Varnado with the 31st pick.

There are definitely things this group can be criticized on. Not signing Shaq and not spending money they don't have isn't one of them.

If they do not have money to make us better they do not need to be in this business. Shaqs old self btw averaged 16 ppg, 8 rpg, and 2.5 blocks last season in just over twenty five minutes of work against Orlando. Now if they truly feel we are elite, adding Shaq to play just against the Howards, Perks, Boguts, etc...is exactly what we need to get over the top and compete against a team like Orlando.

If you do not get that then you are living in denial about this team and its needs. Its the old company line for you now just as it was with BK and all those blown draft picks. At least I am man enough to know when I am wrong and more than man enough to admit it. BK was a draft blundering GM if there ever was one; and our ownership is pinching pennies when compared to the other top four to six teams in the east.

We need Shaq and if it takes the MLE and a two year guarantee, get it done. Its not like a five year deal at ten mill a year. Its not like a dead end contract like Redd ( which the Bucks have worked around quite nicely btw) It is just two years at 5.8 million and then we can compete with Orlando. Period end of friggin story.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Buzzard

[Dejay]

No prob, my man. Again, if there were championship banners hanging in the rafters at Philips, you'd have every right to question us not showing up to the building. But c'mon, they haven't made an ECF since moving here in 1968. The Bucks have a title. So does Golden State. Even the Nets and Pacers have been to the Finals. For this team's GM to say that having a top-4 team in the East is the goal is beyond insulting....

[DJlaysitup]

If they do not have money to make us better they do not need to be in this business....

Well that's a silly thing to say Buzz. You and I may think of it that way (as fans)...but owners have to look at things a tad differently. The key (IMHO) is to enhance the value of your asset....and just as importantly (or more) don't let the value of your asset decline. This is why JJ is the highest paid F/A in the league right now.

[pimp]

I feel like I should bill the ASG for this, but I would get a bounced check.

:lol6:

[AtLaS]

Glad to see you finally came around northcyde, and sorry to hear about that story hawksfanatic. That series was flat out embarassing.

When you pay that much money to Joe Johnson, why not go all the way and truly try to build a contender? Don't half-*ss it and give a ton of money to pretty good player and then slack on coach signings and other role players to finish out the roster. What's the purpose?

I don't blame Sund, his hands are obviously tied. There is absolutely no doubt that he wasn't the one making the coaching decision and I'm sure he's not the one insisting on standing pat with the roster.