The model our owners say they are using

[sillent]

Detroits problem I think was not making the correct decisions on who their core was. IMO it was Billups ( all-star), RIP(all-star), and Big Ben(defensive all-star). Instead they kept Rasheed ( aging former all-star) and Prince ( young player with all-star potential) longer than both Big Ben and Billups. Their fluid starting positions should have been SF@ Prince and PF@ Rasheed. Not center @ Ben and PG @ Billups IMO.

This is why I say when you have a all-star core of players that compete well you build around them. And I think JJ and Horf compete well together and fit their postions in a much more rounded way ( offensively and defensively) than our other three non all-star position players.

Could we have a core of three and keep Smoove? Sure but what and how do we get replacements for Marvin and Bibby/Teague? And making up for Smoove @ PF and Horf @ Center is another delimena. IMO it is a much more classic lineup and easier to build around with just JJ and Horf. But I really do not think our owners are going to do anything other than stay under the lauxury tax.

Marvin, Teague/Bibby, nor Smoove are going anywhere. If anything we may move Craw. But I am having my doubts about that since his ten million added to Evans four coming off the books will allow the ASG to sign Al and stay under the luxury tax.

Their goal is simple, stay under the tax thresh hold. If we make moves involving our expirings to better this team, they will not accomplish that goal. The only way to really improve then is to trade Bibby/Teague, Marvin, or Smoove. Smoove is obviously the best trading peice for a good player and IMO this is where the gutless part comes in, the ASG is afraid to make a bold move like that.

We are going to be stagnant once again as it involves our starters or adding one more solid bench player. Its funny honestly, we add Craw last season and give props all year long for that one great signing. The trend to notice though is that the only position that has really stayed fluid has been our 6th man coming off the bench. We never change starters and never upgrade 7 through 9.

This is where the good teams make multiple changes almost every off season. One or two starters, and 6 through 9. We make one change every two seasons and they want to call us ( themselves included in the us ) being like the Pistons and Spurs. I think it is hilarious that some fans are actually buying into that line of B.S.

If they shock me and make a major deal, I will be more than happy to eat some crow. But right now the ASG is just running a line of B.S. as far as I am concerned.

:thumbsupsmileyanim: I was with you until I read the comments under the bold comments. http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/public/style_emoticons/default/thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif

All these talks of trading a player like Smoove but who would you trade Smoove for that will actually be a worthy improvement. You must admit his natural ability his natural ability is far and few but you must also take into account that this is a home grown talent that came straight out of high school. All players grow at their own pace but the great ones show steady improvement and the ones that have done this coming out of high school are pretty darn good. Look at Garnett, Jermaine O'neal before the injuries and after spending four years on Portland's bench. McGrady after he got out of his cousins shadows in Toronto and gaining his own team in Orlando. I shouldn't even have to mention Kobe and Lebron. What about Josh's home boy Dwight who is still getting better at his own pace. These players no doubt excel talent wise and when they understood/understand the mental aspects of their game and the nba is when they are at their best.

We have a rare talent that is not only improving year to year but can also be a convincing assists man in bringing in a force of his own if the trend that Lebron, Bosh and Wade started continues. Imagine Dwight Howard coming back to his hometown to pair up with his long time childhood friend in Josh Smith without us having to lose much. JJ's contract alone should be enough to make any intangibles work if he were to force a trade.

Trading Smoove would be a bold move but it would not be the smart bold move. Talks of traditional lineups should be thrown out the window. You don't get better by standing still you get better by evolution. Even back then you had your Charles Barkley's and Anthony Mason's who were Jordan size playing power foward. Now of days you got your tall but skinny Noah's playing center or your short but hustling/quick centers like David Lee or a 6'6 Chuck Hayes.

We are going to be stagnant once again as it involves our starters or adding one more solid bench player. Its funny honestly, we add Craw last season and give props all year long for that one great signing. The trend to notice though is that the only position that has really stayed fluid has been our 6th man coming off the bench. We never change starters and never upgrade 7 through 9.

This is where the good teams make multiple changes almost every off season. One or two starters, and 6 through 9. We make one change every two seasons and they want to call us ( themselves included in the us ) being like the Pistons and Spurs. I think it is hilarious that some fans are actually buying into that line of B.S.

Stagnant is not improving every year. We still have young talented players that improve every year individually and collectively. A Hawks fan that has been one at least since this core has got together would notice at least some of the steady improvement. It is hard for people to realize changes that are right in front of you when you see them every day so you may have to step back and look outside the box. For instance if you plant a seed for a tree and stare at that spot daily you are going to see little to no growth. What will happen if you leave and come back a couple years later. Growth/Greatness takes time. Patience is something thst most fans lack. Luckily our ownership is a lot more understanding than us in a basketball and business sense. If they stay the course you will see as you have seen continues improvement which we should continue to ride until we see a real peak. Getting swept in the second round because of lack of effort and intensity is not a peak unless the chemistry issues continue. "The grass is not always greener " which you may not ever know if you don't look or step over to the other side but I have to revise an old saying. "If it ain't broke don't brake it" just to have a new toy which you might get tired of just the same if not sooner because you are missing what you had. The minute our talent shows us the best they have to offer on a nightly basis including the playoffs, is the minute we can truly judge whether to keep a team that has continued to rise, together or make major changes. No team/franchise in their right mind should make drastic changes (that may or may not work out) to a team that is steadily improving. This year however and maybe next depending on circumstances( under a new coaching system/super power in Miami) should be the test.

[Buzzard]

What do you mean their rosters were fluid.

Spurs had D Robinson, Duncan, Bowen and later added Parker and Ginobilli as the core.

As already stated in an earlier post the Pistons had their core of Ben, Chauncey, Prince, Rip and Rasheed became their X Factor.

Rarely do you see a team that makes drastic moves get there and even if they do it is hard to maintain their elite status.

I took the Lakers out of the picture since our owners stated they were following the Pistons and Spurs model, Lakers payed 20 million for a young Shaq; we will not pay 5 for a older one.

My point on the Pistons is when they did try and become fluid they let the wrong players get away. Billups and Big Ben should have been kept; while Prince and your X Factor Wallace could have been moved. IMO that is what the Spurs have done. Here is their lineup for two different championship teams.

Top six players listed in minutes played 2005

Starters and 6th man in 2005

B Bowen

T Duncan

N Mohammed

T Parker

E Ginobili

R Horry

Top six players listed in minutes played 2007

Starters and 6th man in 2007

B. Bowen

T. Duncan

T. Parker

F. Oberto

M. Finley

M. Ginobili

They replaced two key players over a two year period, moved Mano to 6th man and still won a championship. Horry was still on the 2007 team but was regulated to the bench behind Finley and Mano in minutes played. This is what I mean about being fluid. I am not talking about a whole make over and trading every player they had. The Pistons messed up by losing Ben and Billups IMO. Rasheed and Prince should have been their fluid players to replace. Once they lost their defensive anchor and broke up what was probably the best backcourt in the NBA it was hopeless for them when trying to be elite. Good was all they could acomplish IMO.

JJ and Horf should be our constants to build around. Who else? Smoove, Crawford maybe. Marvin as a cheap SF like Bowen was a cheap SF to the Spurs-maybe. Teague if and only if he takes off this season. My point is I am comfortable saying JJ and Horf can be part of a championship nucleus. I am not so confident saying that about Bibby/Teague, Marvin, Crawford, and Smoove.

We have two elite championship caliber players IMO. And in the ASGs opinion they already have the complete package when making statements " to continue putting a elite team on the court". We don't have one yet as far as I am concerned. We need to be fluid just to get to elite and then once there, smart enough to know who is key and who is replaceable.

The Spurs are smart. The Pistons were not so smart.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Buzzard

[sillent]

I took the Lakers out of the picture since our owners stated they were following the Pistons and Spurs model, Lakers payed 20 million for a young Shaq; we will not pay 5 for a older one.

My point on the Pistons is when they did try and become fluid they let the wrong players get away. Billups and Big Ben should have been kept; while Prince and your X Factor Wallace could have been moved. IMO that is what the Spurs have done. Here is their lineup for two different championship teams.

Top six players listed in minutes played 2005

Starters and 6th man in 2005

B Bowen

T Duncan

N Mohammed

T Parker

E Ginobili

R Horry

Top six players listed in minutes played 2007

Starters and 6th man in 2007

B. Bowen

T. Duncan

T. Parker

F. Oberto

M. Finley

M. Ginobili

They replaced two key players over a two year period, moved Mano to 6th man and still won a championship. Horry was still on the 2007 team but was regulated to the bench behind Finley and Mano in minutes played. This is what I mean about being fluid. I am not talking about a whole make over and trading every player they had. The Pistons messed up by losing Ben and Billups IMO. Rasheed and Prince should have been their fluid players to replace. Once they lost their defensive anchor and broke up what was probably the best backcourt in the NBA it was hopeless for them when trying to be elite. Good was all they could acomplish IMO.

JJ and Horf should be our constants to build around. Who else? Smoove, Crawford maybe. Marvin as a cheap SF like Bowen was a cheap SF to the Spurs-maybe. Teague if and only if he takes off this season. My point is I am comfortable saying JJ and Horf can be part of a championship nucleus. I am not so confident saying that about Bibby/Teague, Marvin, Crawford, and Smoove.

We have two elite championship caliber players IMO. And in the ASGs opinion they already have the complete package when making statements " to continue putting a elite team on the court". We don't have one yet as far as I am concerned. We need to be fluid just to get to elite and then once there, smart enough to know who is key and who is replaceable.

The Spurs are smart. The Pistons were not so smart.

I agree about the comment directly above all I'm saying is won't we be doing the same thing as the Pistons if we trade or let someone like Smoove get away. He is our best shot blocker( shortest to record as many blocks as him last season) and is the tallest player last year to record as many steals as him. Once you realize how much of an impact Smoove is to our team you don't give up value like that unless your getting a Lebron or Wade. Remember Smoove has plenty of room to grow and has been doing just that year to year.

Why would you trade Marvin for being exactly what our team former coach has asked of him. If we needed Marvin to be a league leading scorer he would be. He has a pure stroke and the added three point shooting is definitely a plus. He knows how to draw the foul and is pretty good scoring around the basket. He is still very athletic although most of our players starting with Smoove on down to Teague spoil us when it comes to that aspect. Marvin is also a lot more focused on defense and has done a good job versus the Peirce's and Lebron's of the game. Would you really trade a promising second year guard that can penetrate and is willing and capable to run down and block shots like Josh use to. Teague is also an underrated shooter. I can only imagine how Boston would feel/felt if they got rid of Rondo prematurely only for him to blossom like he is now. So my question is who do we trade that will be worth more value than we are giving up. Why make a move just to say we made a move. Sometimes the best move is no move and while were coveting others players we need to take pride in our own.

Josh Childress is going to be a prime example of this when we see him under a system that he can flourish in. Let's see LD's system that he specially designed for the current players we have before we come to any sudden conclusions. One thing I believe all Hawks fans can agree on is that the Evil Genius Woody did not aid/allow our players in reaching their full potential. Yeah we want to win now just the same but lets not make the same mistake until we see our revamped product on the floor. If we felt like any one of our young players have seriously reached their ceiling that's one thing but I think we know deep down inside there is a lot more than what has been currently shown by all of our (young 25 -) players.

[Joker]

I agree about the comment directly above all I'm saying is won't we be doing the same thing as the Pistons if we trade or let someone like Smoove get away. He is our best shot blocker( shortest to record as many blocks as him last season) and is the tallest player last year to record as many steals as him. Once you realize how much of an impact Smoove is to our team you don't give up value like that unless your getting a Lebron or Wade. Remember Smoove has plenty of room to grow and has been doing just that year to year.

Why would you trade Marvin for being exactly what our team former coach has asked of him. If we needed Marvin to be a league leading scorer he would be. He has a pure stroke and the added three point shooting is definitely a plus. He knows how to draw the foul and is pretty good scoring around the basket. He is still very athletic although most of our players starting with Smoove on down to Teague spoil us when it comes to that aspect. Marvin is also a lot more focused on defense and has done a good job versus the Peirce's and Lebron's of the game. Would you really trade a promising second year guard that can penetrate and is willing and capable to run down and block shots like Josh use to. Teague is also an underrated shooter. I can only imagine how Boston would feel/felt if they got rid of Rondo prematurely only for him to blossom like he is now. So my question is who do we trade that will be worth more value than we are giving up. Why make a move just to say we made a move. Sometimes the best move is no move and while were coveting others players we need to take pride in our own.

Josh Childress is going to be a prime example of this when we see him under a system that he can flourish in. Let's see LD's system that he specially designed for the current players we have before we come to any sudden conclusions. One thing I believe all Hawks fans can agree on is that the Evil Genius Woody did not aid/allow our players in reaching their full potential. Yeah we want to win now just the same but lets not make the same mistake until we see our revamped product on the floor. If we felt like any one of our young players have seriously reached their ceiling that's one thing but I think we know deep down inside there is a lot more than what has been currently shown by all of our (young 25 -) players.

No one disagrees. You do not trade Smith unless it's for a top 10 player like CP3 or Melo. No one wants to trade him for anything less and it wouldn't make sense. I agree with all you wrote.

[Buzzard]

No one disagrees. You do not trade Smith unless it's for a top 10 player like CP3 or Melo. No one wants to trade him for anything less and it wouldn't make sense. I agree with all you wrote.

So unless we get a potential HOF player in return we can't trade Smith. Well maybe 6 to 8 years from now we will be able to do that. Smiths expiring, plus a younger talent, filler, and picks for a HOF bound CP3 or Melo to hopefully put us over the top. Like Boston did to get a older Garnett.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Buzzard