Did Horford deserve to be an All-Star?

[Diesel]

To quote "The Great One"

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/340274-marvin-williams-vs-tayshun-prince/page__hl__tayshaun+prince__st__15

This from a thread where the Grand Poobah was comparing Tayshaun Prince to Marvin.

If you take the time to read it you will notice this as only one example of where he thinks coaches' opinions in the NBA are infallible and continues to defend this idea vigorously.

Now he caught himself in tough spot with an argument with Nire in another thread and in order to win or just not admit defeat has completely turned his back on his own ideology. This is why I called him a hypocrite, the coaches voted Al into the Allstar game over all the other choices oh Great Gazoo. The hours they spend preparing and gameplanning for their opponent led them to choose Al Horford as a deserving candidate. Now I have already offered my opinion on the matter and given that Bogut would of been the only equal or better candidate for that position but I have also already given reasons why I believe the great coaches whom you honor so graciously thought Al was better.

You can continue the facade oh face the facts and figures, Al Horford was an Allstar last year and might damn well do it again this year.

There's a great difference between being voted on to the all defensive team than to be voted on to the allstar team.

In the allstar voting, record of the team has weight. In the all defensive team, they take into consideration only the players defensive ability.

My point was that Prince had been selected to the All defensive team 4 times while Marvin = 0... and you had people like yourself Craw trying to say that Marvin was just as good a defender.

The two arguments are very different.

Lee all Day.

Smoove all night.

Watchout Diesel you telling the truth again. The Super-Homers can't handle this.

Actually, I would love for Horf to have Lee's offensive game. However, I think Bogut is probably a better candidate than Lee. Bogut was better than Horf in every statistical category except maybe FG% and Team wins. Here's a case where I don't see how it benefits to look at team record.

[Packfill]

I don't really care about the all star game, but long term I would probably take Brook Lopez over Al Horford.

They would be an excellent center/power forward combo.

[MaceCase]

The two arguments are very different.

Sorry buddy, he wasn't fan voted on, he was selected by the same coaches that vote on each award. The same coaches whose opinion you trust clearly more than your own. Got them tappers laced up again.

[HawksFan87]

Smoove deserved to be an all star more than Al & Joe..

Also, if the Bucks were playing better at that time, Bogut would have made it...

[NineOhTheRino]

Al Horford is not a TRUE All Star center. I can not recall many all Star centers of the past begging for help. Shouldn't we trust Al? He's the one doing all the politicking for Sund to bring in a true 5.

Edited August 5, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[High5]

Horford certainly deserved it, but I'd say Bogut deserved it more. Horford was better than the other centers in question. David Lee is a good fantasy player, but whatever he gets he turns around and gives up. Horford would put up similar numbers on the Knicks and make them a better team.

[AHawks89]

1.Bogut

2.Josh Smith

[Plainview1981]

If you are so inclined, you may post a comment explaining your choice. Otherwise, you may simply vote anonymously in the poll.

I'll say he did. None of the other options you listed were better. A 14/9 big man shouldn't make the all star team, but he does because there are such limited big men in the NBA right now.

[lethalweapon3]

How the teams and players were faring at the time of the actual selection effects who was "most deserving" back when it was time to actually pick.

Through January 27, Bogut's Bucks were 19-25 and three games behind Charlotte and Chicago in ninth in the East. Lee's Knicks were another game behind them. All the boards and blocks Bogut was pulling down left and right, and yet the only time anyone found it worthy to mention Milwaukee was reminiscing about what that rookie kid did in November against Golden State. At least, until AFTER the actual All-Star Break, when the Deer went on a 15-2 tear and became a legitimate playoff contender.

Through January 27, Horford's Hawks were in FIRST place in the Southeast (fancy that) at 29-15, a half game ahead of the vaunted Magic. Horford also led the Hawks and most players (not just centers) in plus-minus at the time (question the stat as we wish, but it's apparently still important to the NBA people making the decisions), while Bogut and David (Ole!) Lee couldn't crack the Top 50.

If Dwight Howard is going as a starting Center, why not the cat ringing up double-doubles just ahead of him in the standings? Nahhhh, we'll take the guys six games away from .500 and flailing away outside of the playoff hunt.

~lw3

[Diesel]

Horford certainly deserved it, but I'd say Bogut deserved it more. Horford was better than the other centers in question. David Lee is a good fantasy player, but whatever he gets he turns around and gives up. Horford would put up similar numbers on the Knicks and make them a better team.

While i don't disagree about Lee's defense, Lee's offense is miles ahead of Horfs. IF Horf played for the Knicks, he would not have been as productive. Not as a first option.

How the teams and players were faring at the time of the actual selection effects who was "most deserving" back when it was time to actually pick.

Through January 27, Bogut's Bucks were 19-25 and three games behind Charlotte and Chicago in ninth in the East. Lee's Knicks were another game behind them. All the boards and blocks Bogut was pulling down left and right, and yet the only time anyone found it worthy to mention Milwaukee was reminiscing about what that rookie kid did in November against Golden State. At least, until AFTER the actual All-Star Break, when the Deer went on a 15-2 tear and became a legitimate playoff contender.

Through January 27, Horford's Hawks were in FIRST place in the Southeast (fancy that) at 29-15, a half game ahead of the vaunted Magic. Horford also led the Hawks and most players (not just centers) in plus-minus at the time (question the stat as we wish, but it's apparently still important to the NBA people making the decisions), while Bogut and David (Ole!) Lee couldn't crack the Top 50.

If Dwight Howard is going as a starting Center, why not the cat ringing up double-doubles just ahead of him in the standings? Nahhhh, we'll take the guys six games away from .500 and flailing away outside of the playoff hunt.

~lw3

The problem with that is that Al was not responsible for us being in that winning position. We had Josh, JJ, and Jamal who argubly were ahead of Al in the pecking order. Who did Bogut have ahead of him? He had a rookie PG at the time and most of his teammates were on the IL. Even when they played us, they were missing Bogut and Redd. You can't penalize Bogut for where his team was, neither can you elevate Horf because he was on a winning team.

Like one Hawks fan said.. Where was Marvin's invite?

[lethalweapon3]

The problem with that is that Al was not responsible for us being in that winning position. We had Josh, JJ, and Jamal who argubly were ahead of Al in the pecking order. Who did Bogut have ahead of him? He had a rookie PG at the time and most of his teammates were on the IL. Even when they played us, they were missing Bogut and Redd. You can't penalize Bogut for where his team was, neither can you elevate Horf because he was on a winning team.

Like one Hawks fan said.. Where was Marvin's invite?

All the more reason. With no one ahead of him pecking about, Bogut should have done more to make his numbers stand out (especially that wins stat). Through January, he failed to do so... so the more deserving Center (with a plus-minus showing he's doing something right on both ends of the floor) went to Dallas.

I can't penalize Bogut for not contributing enough on a losing team to stand out, but the coaches and GMs can. After the All-Star Break, when the Bucks started winning, in earnest, it was Bogut who made 3rd Team All-NBA... for which he was "more deserving."

And Marvin's invite was "stolen" by Carlos Delfino! ;-)

~lw3

Also Horf was "elevated" over Josh (and Jamal, and "cough" Marvin) because none of the three could play the 5. Sure Al can't do much with Dwight by himself, but he does good enough to be a primary backup for an exhibition against the likes of Amar'e and Kaman.

~lw3

Edited August 5, 2010 by lethalweapon3

[benhillboy]

Hell Yeah he did. If you think that the Hawks starting a run of playoff appearances the year he arrived was a coincidence you are mistaken.

[exodus]

All the more reason. With no one ahead of him pecking about, Bogut should have done more to make his numbers stand out (especially that wins stat). Through January, he failed to do so... so the more deserving Center (with a plus-minus showing he's doing something right on both ends of the floor) went to Dallas.

I can't penalize Bogut for not contributing enough on a losing team to stand out, but the coaches and GMs can. After the All-Star Break, when the Bucks started winning, in earnest, it was Bogut who made 3rd Team All-NBA... for which he was "more deserving."

And Marvin's invite was "stolen" by Carlos Delfino! ;-)

~lw3

Also Horf was "elevated" over Josh (and Jamal, and "cough" Marvin) because none of the three could play the 5. Sure Al can't do much with Dwight by himself, but he does good enough to be a primary backup for an exhibition against the likes of Amar'e and Kaman.

~lw3

Bogut averaged 19/10.5 in November. He averaged 17/11 in January with 2.7 blocks. He only played 24 of his 69 games after the break. He made 3rd team All-NBA because he had a better year than Horford.

[clicklandshopping]

Al Horford is not a TRUE All Star center. I can not recall many all Star centers of the past begging for help. Shouldn't we trust Al? He's the one doing all the politicking for Sund to bring in a true 5.

Sorry, I meant to give you a +1. How do I correct it?

[clicklandshopping]

I think all players deserves any accolade they receive. But I will say I was surprised Al was even in the conversation of being a All-star. I'm happy he was chosen though because it helps our team get recognized and give our players confidence and something to strive for.

[lethalweapon3]

Bogut averaged 19/10.5 in November. He averaged 17/11 in January with 2.7 blocks. He only played 24 of his 69 games after the break. He made 3rd team All-NBA because he had a better year than Horford.

... AND because the Bucks started actually winning in those 24 games. As you've shown, Bogut's numbers obviously did not improve from November to January enough for voters to notice. Maybe 25/15/4 blocks would've gotten him some more attention, especially while Jennings struggled after his coming-out show, but short of that, being the same also-ran the Bucks were in November did not help his cause at All-Star selection time.

Conversely, Gerald Wallace got the nod over Smoove because he AND the then-losing-record Bobcats got hot (10-4, including a six-game homestand sweep) just in time for the selection show (and since nobody was keen on giving the Hawks 3 All-Stars). If the Bucks were winning at the 'Cats clip at the time, Bogut's case would have been stronger.

Here was the thread when Al got selected... were there any impassioned pleas for Bogut in it? (I'm just starting to snoop myself)

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/343137-looks-like-al-horford-made-the-allstar-team-and-not-josh/

~lw3

Sorry, I meant to give you a +1. How do I correct it?

I plussed it for ya clickland.

~lw3

Edited August 6, 2010 by lethalweapon3

[High5]

While i don't disagree about Lee's defense, Lee's offense is miles ahead of Horfs. IF Horf played for the Knicks, he would not have been as productive. Not as a first option.

Lee is better offensively, but definitely not "miles." Horford would outproduce him overall by playing "miles" better defensively.

[lethalweapon3]

Not much I could find on our end. Here's a handful of arguments from America's Dairyland at the time Bogut got "snubbed" (twice, after big-media-market darling Lee got a late injury selection)

http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blogs/the_bob_boozer_jinx/archive/2010/01/27/nba-all-stars-does-andrew-bogut-deserve-a-reserve-spot.aspx

http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blogs/the_bob_boozer_jinx/archive/2010/02/11/nba-all-stars-bogut-and-milwaukee-snubbed-again.aspx

"Bogut has certainly overpowered Horford ever since he came into the league," says the blogger. Can you find the last time Bogut and Horford played each other (before the All-Star selections)? The article and the handful of head-nodders make it sound as though GMs and coaches would just pop in their ATL-MIL tapes and see, yet they hadn't matched up by then in 2009-10, and they apparently didn't play each other at all in 2008-09. Voters are supposed to make head-to-head choices based on some meaningless contests in 2007-08?

~lw3

Edited August 6, 2010 by lethalweapon3

[exodus]

... AND because the Bucks started actually winning in those 24 games. As you've shown, Bogut's numbers obviously did not improve from November to January enough for voters to notice. Maybe 25/15/4 blocks would've gotten him some more attention, especially while Jennings struggled after his coming-out show, but short of that, being the same also-ran the Bucks were in November did not help his cause at All-Star selection time.

Conversely, Gerald Wallace got the nod over Smoove because he AND the then-losing-record Bobcats got hot (10-4, including a six-game homestand sweep) just in time for the selection show (and since nobody was keen on giving the Hawks 3 All-Stars). If the Bucks were winning at the 'Cats clip at the time, Bogut's case would have been stronger.

Here was the thread when Al got selected... were there any impassioned pleas for Bogut in it? (I'm just starting to snoop myself)

~lw3

You are looking on a Hawks board for posts that Horford shouldn't have gotten in? That is pretty funny. Go to any general NBA board and you will find as many of those posts as you have time to read.

Bogut played his best basketball before the break. Bogut went from not making the All-Star team to trouncing Horford in the All-NBA voting in 24 games even though Bogut didn't do much after the break. The only argument you can make in Horford's defense is team record which is self explanatory.

[Diesel]

All the more reason. With no one ahead of him pecking about, Bogut should have done more to make his numbers stand out (especially that wins stat). Through January, he failed to do so... so the more deserving Center (with a plus-minus showing he's doing something right on both ends of the floor) went to Dallas.

I can't penalize Bogut for not contributing enough on a losing team to stand out, but the coaches and GMs can. After the All-Star Break, when the Bucks started winning, in earnest, it was Bogut who made 3rd Team All-NBA... for which he was "more deserving."

And Marvin's invite was "stolen" by Carlos Delfino! ;-)

~lw3

Also Horf was "elevated" over Josh (and Jamal, and "cough" Marvin) because none of the three could play the 5. Sure Al can't do much with Dwight by himself, but he does good enough to be a primary backup for an exhibition against the likes of Amar'e and Kaman.

~lw3

Actually LW,

Being the first option means that you see all of the defensive pressure. Especially on a team with little or weak 2nd options. That means that for all of their wins at the time of the voting, Bogut was responsible for them. ON the other hand, Horf was the 4th option. He was not under the defensive pressure that Bogut was under. They were not drawing up gameplans to stop Horf. Horf was just another cog in the machine. That doesn't make him worthy of an individual award. Was Scott Williams worthy of an allstar pick? What about Bill Wennington? That's what you're saying. You're saying because Horf was a 4th option and put up respectable numbers that he deserves more credit than a guy who was always the focus of the other teams defense and put up better numbers than Horf?

And Somebody gave you a +1 for that?

I promise you, if the shoe was on the other foot, there would be no way that anybody here would say that Horf was more worthy. We have a lot of Homerism here. Hell, Horf was not more worthy than Smoove either.