Are we in store for a season like the 2009 76ers?

[Admin]

In 2008 after replacing Mo Cheeks when the 76ers started out 9-14 their new coach Tony DiLeo led them to a 32-27 record (41-41 overall) and the 6th seed in the playoffs, without much from their big FA signing Elton Brand. They were a team with young athletes who played an uptempo style and if I'm not mistaken also with half court similarities to the Woody offense where they let their athletes be athletes and score mostly from one on one play.

After the season DiLeo was replaced by Eddie Jordan, who installed the Princeton offense, and their group of young athletes struggled big time with it on their way to a 27-55 season and Jordan was fired in the offseason.

Now I realize that we're not the same team as the 76ers but we're trying to install a very similar offense to what Jordan ran and we're doing it with players who are not used to playing in a structured offense. So after seeing how much our players seem to be struggling with the transition to this offense, which is to be expected, do you think that they'll be able to actually make that transition or are we destined to be like the 2009 76ers and fail miserably at it?

[buckeye242424]

I'm concerned. Just read a piece written by M. Bradley for AJC, and the gist of it was there's no "buzz" so close to the season. And I completely agree. Something is off...there is no buzz, no feeling of excitement going into the season. And I think the players are feeling it too. Quote from Craws:

“Everyone has an opinion [as to how these Hawks will fare],” Crawford said, speaking after Wednesday’s practice. “It remains to be seen. We’ve got a whole new offense, a whole new system. I hope we’ll be able to take the next step. But you never know.”

"But you never know." Not sure about you guys, but that doesn't sound optimistic at all. I'm concerned. Back to the original post...

I think it's going to take time, and hopefully we'll get better at the motion offense. But there will be growing pains. It's a complete 180 from what we've done in the past, so it's going to take time, and we'll take our lumps. The first 10 possessions vs. Orlando were awful...all jumpshots, no post play, no penetration....

[Diesel]

The answer is NO.

The offense that we're installing relies on good passing and good shooting and having a three point threat. IN PHILLY, they didn't have that. Their best three point shooter was Iguodala. He barely sniffed 300 three pointers. They had no way of providing a three point threat so Teams just doubled their middle. In all actuallity, Jordan wasn't given the pieces or the time to make that system work.

Here, we're different. Last year, Joe, Jamal, and Bibby all shot over 300 3 pters. They also all shot over 37% from three compared to Iguodala's 31%.

Philly's passers were only at the PG position. Last year Smoove made more assists than their whole frontcourt and 1 of it's BUs combined.

Point is that we're more suited for this offense than Philly was. It will take time to cut down on the turnovers and to developed the right mindset, but that's what LD is here to do.

[frosgrim]

Didn't Andre Miller leave the Sixers in the 08 offseason?

That pretty much left a bunch of athletic guys without any sort of calming leader on the floor.

I fear the Hawks are in a similar boat. We really don't have a point that can lead the team. In a motion offense the point needs to be the guy that can run the offense and make sure everyone is on the same page. Bibby just can't run anything any more. His mind probably grasps everything, but his body is done. Joe just doesn't lead. The front court guys are too busy battling each other for shots to lead the team. Ergo, we need a point to really lead the team.

The organization seems to believe that Teague is the answer. I have my serious doubts as to his ability to command the floor and run the offense. He's just too timid and lacks confidence. JC2 maybe a better option, we'll have to see.

Frankly, a trade to bring in a vet PG would really help. Devin Harris is a guy that should be considered. However, maybe organization is waiting out the Hornets to see if Paul really does go on the block later in the season. I'm OK treading water if it means hording trade capital that ends up returning Paul for the 2nd half of the season.

[HawkItus]

I just keep thinking about that first pre-season game. Jeff Teague and the starters were feeling it. We were destroying that team in first half. Then Drew put the governers on and they ended up losing. I don't believe the team has been together with Teague like that sense. Look, worst case scenario we are a playoff team. I'm sorry, but even my most pessimistic side can't see us finishing worse than .500. But, before it even got to that point I think somebody would be moved.

[Diesel]

Didn't Andre Miller leave the Sixers in the 08 offseason?

That pretty much left a bunch of athletic guys without any sort of calming leader on the floor.

I fear the Hawks are in a similar boat. We really don't have a point that can lead the team. In a motion offense the point needs to be the guy that can run the offense and make sure everyone is on the same page. B

I totally disagree and this is wrong. The motion offense's whole premise is to take the pressure off of the PG to lead. The PG becomes another moving part. If the PG can shoot, he's a plus.

Here's what Rose said..

"“Everybody's loving the offense," Rose said. “It's great. If I don't have the ball, I'm always moving. Everybody is moving, so that it's hard to guard. We're looking pretty good right now."

Read more: http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/69557/20101014/motion_offense_creating_more_assists_for_chicago/#ixzz130pd7jq

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The problem, is that we really can't afford to struggle in November, trying to learn the offense. We have 7 very winnable road games in October and November that we really need to win. We do have some tough home games during that time, but we've traditionally been a good home team.

But for all of the talk about offense, it should be the defensive play of the Hawks that should scare people. People are getting their wish with the abandoment of the switching defense, but that's the move that may be the most detrimental for the Hawks.

While the switching defense was nowhere near perfect, it did cause opponents who didn't have high quality PGs major problems. Drew wants us to be a hard-nosed man to man team. But if we can't play that way, Drew simply must go with what works the best.

The bottom line is that Philly didn't have the personnel to play a Princeton style offense, because you need good shooters to make it work. And while the Hawks have better shooters than Philly, the truth is that we're not a great outside shooting team either . . nor do we have a legit low post presence to throw the ball to.

Drew better be extremely careful. We can't waste the first 20 or so games trying to make Drew's systems work. If we don't take advantage of the "easy" road schedule next month, the Hawks may find themselves fighting to stay just above .500 all year and fighting for their playoff lives..

Edited October 21, 2010 by northcyde

[lethalweapon3]

For Drew's sake I just hope it ain't the 1992 76ers. Doug Moe, anyone?

~lw3

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I totally disagree and this is wrong. The motion offense's whole premise is to take the pressure off of the PG to lead. The PG becomes another moving part. If the PG can shoot, he's a plus.

Here's what Rose said..

"“Everybody's loving the offense," Rose said. “It's great. If I don't have the ball, I'm always moving. Everybody is moving, so that it's hard to guard. We're looking pretty good right now."

Read more: http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/69557/20101014/motion_offense_creating_more_assists_for_chicago/#ixzz130pd7jq

But Rose still needs to be the stabilizer of the offense, seeing that he's the guy on the Bulls that can create his own shot when the shot clock is running down. Even if it's Rose making the pass, the ball does need to eventually get back to him in a motion offense.

Drew wants a "dog" in Teague, because Drew knows that Teague will have to have sigificant control of the flow of the game. And when push comes to shove, Teague will have to break down the defense himself, and create a shot for himself or for someone else.

Let me ask you a question. Do you want JJ's shots to be reduced to 15 shots a game, just so Marvin's shots per game can be increased? Because that's what we're talking about with this motion offense, seeing that the offense isn't going to feature just JJ.

Drew has to be flexible if this offense doesn't work for us. At that point, he has to play to our strengths.

[jerrywest]

Great discussions everybody!We are lucky to have an easy schedule early on. Players can always adust to Woody ball in the 2nd half if we don't do well with Drew ball in the 1st half. They have played Woody ball too long to have any problem with that. Hopefully by the end of November, the players will be fluent in both languages.

[DeacKillsaDevil]

If our offense relies on good shooting, we're doomed.

[jerrywest]

<br />If our offense relies on good shooting, we're doomed.<br />

&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br /><br />JJ, Marvin, Mo, Bibby, JC1, Zaza, Al are above average mid range shooters for their position.<br /><br />Josh &amp; Teague are below average shooters for their position. Edited October 21, 2010 by jerrywest

[Admin]

JJ, Marvin, Mo, Bibby, JC1, Zaza, Al are above average mid range shooters for their position.

Josh &amp; Teague are below average shooters for their position.

They're all good shooters when they create for themselves but the question is can they be good catch and shooters, which is a big part of the motion offense. And where are the guys cutting to the basket that cause disruption and open lanes? I certainly didn't see much of that against Orlando and that should happen regardless of who is or isn't on the floor.

[frosgrim]

But Rose still needs to be the stabilizer of the offense, seeing that he's the guy on the Bulls that can create his own shot when the shot clock is running down. Even if it's Rose making the pass, the ball does need to eventually get back to him in a motion offense.

Drew wants a "dog" in Teague, because Drew knows that Teague will have to have sigificant control of the flow of the game. And when push comes to shove, Teague will have to break down the defense himself, and create a shot for himself or for someone else.

Let me ask you a question. Do you want JJ's shots to be reduced to 15 shots a game, just so Marvin's shots per game can be increased? Because that's what we're talking about with this motion offense, seeing that the offense isn't going to feature just JJ.

Drew has to be flexible if this offense doesn't work for us. At that point, he has to play to our strengths.

Exactly. The PG in motion has to manage the game and the offense. He ideally would do the same for the defense. Mookie was terrific at this. Mookie is just the sort of player this version of the Hawks need.

[Diesel]

But Rose still needs to be the stabilizer of the offense, seeing that he's the guy on the Bulls that can create his own shot when the shot clock is running down. Even if it's Rose making the pass, the ball does need to eventually get back to him in a motion offense.

Drew wants a "dog" in Teague, because Drew knows that Teague will have to have sigificant control of the flow of the game. And when push comes to shove, Teague will have to break down the defense himself, and create a shot for himself or for someone else.

Let me ask you a question. Do you want JJ's shots to be reduced to 15 shots a game, just so Marvin's shots per game can be increased? Because that's what we're talking about with this motion offense, seeing that the offense isn't going to feature just JJ.

Drew has to be flexible if this offense doesn't work for us. At that point, he has to play to our strengths.

Do you think we don't have guys who can "create" their own shot?

I wouldn't mind JJ's shot benig decrease if it means that our offense runs more efficiently. With JJ having the ball in his hands and having the green light all the time, we are predictable and easily beaten. With a motion offense, we spread the ball and we take advantage of our atheleticism, our passing and the fact that we have more than 1 good shooter.

It's like having a boxer vs a MMA person who also box. It's great to have a good boxer, but he is confined by just using his arms as offense. However, if you have an MMA fighter who also is a good boxer, that person has the use of arms, legs, knees, elbows, and takedowns. That's how I see what we did before compared to what we're going to do.

[niremetal]

But Rose still needs to be the stabilizer of the offense, seeing that he's the guy on the Bulls that can create his own shot when the shot clock is running down. Even if it's Rose making the pass, the ball does need to eventually get back to him in a motion offense.

Drew wants a "dog" in Teague, because Drew knows that Teague will have to have sigificant control of the flow of the game. And when push comes to shove, Teague will have to break down the defense himself, and create a shot for himself or for someone else.

Except that that's not true in a flex offense. After the first pass is made, no one player is any more in control of the "flow" than any other. And since the first pass will be made by whoever the outlet pass is thrown to (which will be 2 or the 3 as often as the 1 in a classic flex offense), the guy who makes that first pass will, more often than not, NOT be Teague. Even when it is, the first pass is usually a simple, uncontested pass to an open player on the wing or in the high post. A retarded walrus could make that pass.

The guy who gets the ball at the end of the clock is most certainly not going to be Teague in our case. At least not this year. This year, he'll be option #4 or #5 almost the whole time he's on the floor, which is not unusual for PGs these days, especially in motion offenses.

Let me ask you a question. Do you want JJ's shots to be reduced to 15 shots a game, just so Marvin's shots per game can be increased? Because that's what we're talking about with this motion offense, seeing that the offense isn't going to feature just JJ.

Puh-leeze. Sorry, but that's just laughable. It's as laughable as the people who said that Will Perdue could end up taking as many shots as Michael Jordan in the Triangle. Even in an "equal opportunity" style of system, teammates still know each other's strengths and weaknesses, and will endeavor to get the ball to the best offensive players. So the more talented and aggressive an offensive player is, the more shots he'll get.

Now I realize that we're not the same team as the 76ers but we're trying to install a very similar offense to what Jordan ran and we're doing it with players who are not used to playing in a structured offense.

Yeah, but we didn't just lose our starting PG and our only source of inside toughness. So we're nothing like the '09 Sixers, thanks.

Edited October 21, 2010 by niremetal

[Admin]

Yeah, but we didn't just lose our starting PG and our only source of inside toughness. So we're nothing like the '09 Sixers, thanks.

My point is not that we're the same team as the 76ers, my point is that we could very easily struggle in this system just as they did. I'm not suggesting that we'll win fewer than 30 games, but I could absolutely see us be 10 games worse if it takes a while for the players to adjust to the system, and that's assuming that they're capable of adjusting to it. I'm hopeful that we'll do well in this system and I'm very much in favor of this style of play, but that doesn't mean it will work with the players we currently have.

[HawkItus]

I think the real answer lies in one fundamental question.....does sund/ownership want believe in Drew or this roster more? First glance I say it would be the roster. More money, more guaranteed years etc. But, then you think about what Drew said a few days back about JJ having bought completely in. That tilts the scale. Let's say we struggle, but JJ is having a career year in Drews system? I think the ownership would be willing to role with the coach and highest paid player and send any misfits off for whatever we can.

[Atlantaholic]

We will be alright. People forget these guys have been playing together for like four seasons. Philadelphia was kind of a one year wonder type of team, and didn't have NEARLY the same amount of experience as our guys. We may still be relatively young (very relatively considering we got Bibby, Joe and Craw who are all over 29 years old), but our young guys have been around for a while, they aren't inexperienced players. If we can win 53 games with Woodson's crayola offense I think we will probably be able to hover around 50 wins with Drew's motion offense, even with probably injuries here and there (no team will stay totally injury free two years in a row) The East has gotten a little better at the top but it is also pretty weak at the bottom. We will get plenty of wins. And after the Miami game I think at worst Drew's approach to the halfcourt offense is an upgrade to Woodson's... the guys ran it well tonight and it defeated Iso Lebron at crunch time. I think we can chalk up the early preseason struggles to a veteran team that just didn't get up to play meaningless games.