We need to make it permanent!....Jason Collins mind as well start

[exodus]

I'm not going over the top conspiracy but the guy has a point.

And its hard to argue against if you watch the games.

The only point you guys have is the one on top of your hats. The issue isn't the lineup against Orlando, it is the lineup for all games. Whether or not Marvin sucks has no relevance to the fact that Smith is far better at the 4 than the 3.

Horford isn't just OK at center, he made the All-Star team last year and is playing better this year. Offensively he does the same things, with the same effectiveness, whether he is playing the 4 or 5. The only problem he has at center is defensively when he is facing a much bigger, high scoring post player. That is a infrequent problem.

Collins sucks. He is scoring 3 ppg in the games he starts. The opposing defense can just ignore him. Throw in the fact that Smith is far less effective at the 3 than the 4 and it should be clear to anyone without an agenda that the lineup that won 53 games last year is the Hawks best starting lineup.

Edited December 29, 2010 by exodus

[MaceCase]

Is it considered irony when you accuse people of an agenda yet alone a conspiracy by using your own agenda and conspiracy and rather ridiculous strawmen as proof?

Let's get the argument straight for those who fail to realize and want to push their Marvin agenda across the table, this hearing is not about Marvin. This is about starting one of the worst Centers in the league and moving another player who somehow managed to be 2nd team all defense and an allstar snub "playing against his nature" to a position he's ill equipped for permanently. Stop with the hyperbole that Al was just getting abused at the C position the past 3 years and while you are at it take notice that one of the conditions that allowed Smoove to play SF (his ability to hit shots) is evaporating from his arsenal.

[Diesel]

The only point you guys have is the one on top of your hats. The issue isn't the lineup against Orlando, it is the lineup for all games. Whether or not Marvin sucks has no relevance to the fact that Smith is far better at the 4 than the 3.

Horford isn't just OK at center, he made the All-Star team last year and is playing better this year. Offensively he does the same things, with the same effectiveness, whether he is playing the 4 or 5. The only problem he has at center is defensively when he is facing a much bigger, high scoring post player. That is a infrequent problem.

Collins sucks. He is scoring 3 ppg in the games he starts. The opposing defense can just ignore him. Throw in the fact that Smith is far less effective at the 3 than the 4 and it should be clear to anyone without an agenda that the lineup that won 53 games last year is the Hawks best starting lineup.

First let's clean up this Allstar stuff... shall we....

Here's the voting last year for EC Centers:

Centers: Dwight Howard (Orl) 625,279; Shaquille O'Neal (Cle) 206,657; Andrea Bargnani (Tor) 67,310; Al Horford (Atl) 52,747; Andrew Bogut (Mil) 45,920; Brook Lopez (NJ) 39,420; Jermaine O'Neal (Mia) 38,956; Rasheed Wallace (Bos) 36,855; Kendrick Perkins (Bos) 19,408; Brad Miller (Chi) 17,188; Tyson Chandler (Cha) 14,062; Samuel Dalembert, (Phi) 13,969.

Here's what was said:

"Al Horford will be making his first All-Star appearance of his career—a decision that is head scratching to say the least. Comparing Horford with Smith, it’s hard to come up with an argument that Horford deserves to be in the game more. Smith is averaging better stats in these categories: points, steals, blocks, assists, and assist-to-turnover, doing so while averaging a minute less than Horford.

Horford has a one-rebound advantage on Smith and commits less turnovers. However, Smith averages over eight rebounds and only turns the ball over two times a game, so it’s not as if he lost his All-Star vote because of those numbers."

Now, since Al got in on the fact that neither Shaq or Bargnani could make it... let's say it was a coaches choice.

If you had:

Horford, Lopez, Bogut, Perkins, and Noah and only one could be your franchise Center, who are you picking.... or better yet, Franchise C, give me your order of picking.

[exodus]

Here's what was said:

"Al Horford will be making his first All-Star appearance of his career—a decision that is head scratching to say the least. Comparing Horford with Smith, it’s hard to come up with an argument that Horford deserves to be in the game more. Smith is averaging better stats in these categories: points, steals, blocks, assists, and assist-to-turnover, doing so while averaging a minute less than Horford.

Horford has a one-rebound advantage on Smith and commits less turnovers. However, Smith averages over eight rebounds and only turns the ball over two times a game, so it’s not as if he lost his All-Star vote because of those numbers."

And who exactly said that?

[Diesel]

Is it considered irony when you accuse people of an agenda yet alone a conspiracy by using your own agenda and conspiracy and rather ridiculous strawmen as proof?

Let's get the argument straight for those who fail to realize and want to push their Marvin agenda across the table, this hearing is not about Marvin. This is about starting one of the worst Centers in the league and moving another player who somehow managed to be 2nd team all defense and an allstar snub "playing against his nature" to a position he's ill equipped for permanently. Stop with the hyperbole that Al was just getting abused at the C position the past 3 years and while you are at it take notice that one of the conditions that allowed Smoove to play SF (his ability to hit shots) is evaporating from his arsenal.

One thing, we don't have to guess about Al at the Center position, we have numbers to prove it:

2009-2010:

Season average: 14.2/9.9

Boston averages: 12/10.

Orlando averages: 8/7.3

Milwaukee average: 14/11.3

NJ average: 13/10

Cleveland average: 10.7/8.0

2008-2009

Season Average: 11.5/9.3

Boston average: 8.3/9

Orlando average: 10.3/9.8

Milwaukee Average: 20/9

NJ average: 9.3/8.3

Cleveland average: 10/9.5

These are not great teams. However, these are teams with Bigs. What happens? He doesn't or barely reaches his season average vs. bigs. Also does he stop Bogut, Howard, Lopez, or any of those guys from implementing their offense?

[MaceCase]

I'm sorry but you were supposed to prove that he was terrible against those teams.

[Diesel]

And who exactly said that?

As if it matters... http://bleacherreport.com/articles/344510-josh-smith-and-carlos-boozer-legitimate-all-star-game-snubs

Point is... I see no response on my question.

I'm sorry but you were supposed to prove that he was terrible against those teams.

How about we say below average and we table it until we see how he performs against the same teams at PF.

BTW...

Against Orlando while playing PF,

He's averaging: 18.7/8.7

Just for a reference...

Compared to: 10.3/9.8

and

8.0/7.3

Edited December 29, 2010 by Diesel

[MaceCase]

Bleacher report?! My goodness this is becoming a comedy of errors.

[exodus]

As if it matters... http://bleacherreport.com/articles/344510-josh-smith-and-carlos-boozer-legitimate-all-star-game-snubs

Point is... I see no response on my question.

The bleacher report? Do they even know that Horford wasn't in competition with Smith since they play different positions? I guess not.

I don't pick the reserves, the coaches do. They are going to be reluctant to pick guys from teams that suck or guys who have been hurt. It isn't exactly news, and Horford is playing better this year than last year.

How about we say below average and we table it until we see how he performs against the same teams at PF.

BTW...

Against Orlando while playing PF,

He's averaging: 18.7/8.7

Just for a reference...

Compared to: 10.3/9.8

and

8.0/7.3

Of course he is going to have an easier time scoring against Rashard/Bass than Dwight. Thank you Captain Obvious.

[Diesel]

The bleacher report? Do they even know that Horford wasn't in competition with Smith since they play different positions? I guess not.

I don't pick the reserves, the coaches do. They are going to be reluctant to pick guys from teams that suck or guys who have been hurt. It isn't exactly news, and Horford is playing better this year than last year.

Are you sure about that???

2009 East Allstar reserves..

Joe Johnson

Rashard Lewis

Paul Pierce

Ray Allen

Devin Harris

Mo Williams

Danny Granger

These were the reserves for the 2009 allstar game. Who exactly is the BU Center here Ex?

Exactly, there were none.

The bottom line here is that the reserves are choosen by coaches and no position is mandated. That means that Al and Smoove were in competition. So was Bogut, Lee, Noah, Lopez and the rest. Also, before you try to march too hard on "Record"... what was our Record the first time Joe went to the Allstar game as a Hawk?

I think that's enough debunking for now. I'm sure you will say something? or Maybe not? Point is... Al was Lucky to get in and Smoove was snubbed.

[Joker]

Are you sure about that???

2009 East Allstar reserves..

Joe Johnson

Rashard Lewis

Paul Pierce

Ray Allen

Devin Harris

Mo Williams

Danny Granger

These were the reserves for the 2009 allstar game. Who exactly is the BU Center here Ex?

Exactly, there were none.

The bottom line here is that the reserves are choosen by coaches and no position is mandated. That means that Al and Smoove were in competition. So was Bogut, Lee, Noah, Lopez and the rest. Also, before you try to march too hard on "Record"... what was our Record the first time Joe went to the Allstar game as a Hawk?

I think that's enough debunking for now. I'm sure you will say something? or Maybe not? Point is... Al was Lucky to get in and Smoove was snubbed.

Al deserve it more. Smith had great games without question but his ability to have a MVP type game and then a I need to sit on the bench game is Smoove main issue. Too many coaches caught the great and awful Smoove. The same could be said this year as well.

[High5]

I don't know why people think Horford struggles against Bogut. He had a rough rookie year, but since then he's gotten the better of Bogut basically every time. Howard and Lopez are match up problems, but Horford is a better player than Lopez.

[Diesel]

Al deserve it more. Smith had great games without question but his ability to have a MVP type game and then a I need to sit on the bench game is Smoove main issue. Too many coaches caught the great and awful Smoove. The same could be said this year as well.

I think its just a case that Al is more likable. The truth is that statistically, the only stat that Smoove wasn't ahead of Al was rebounds and mpg. When you consider everybody, I have a very hard time Justifying Al over Smoove, Bogut, or Lee (last year).

[Diesel]

I don't know why people think Horford struggles against Bogut. He had a rough rookie year, but since then he's gotten the better of Bogut basically every time. Howard and Lopez are match up problems, but Horford is a better player than Lopez.

Honestly, if we had our same team and the question was who do you want Horford or Lopez...

I would pick Lopez 9 times out of 10. While Lopez is not the rebounder that Horf is, Lopez is 22 average 19.3 ppg. I love Horf, I just think it would be difficult for him to get close to that. Plus Lopez has a grown up post game and he can run the floor. Avery is going to make this kid into a beast.

[exodus]

Are you sure about that???

2009 East Allstar reserves..

Joe Johnson

Rashard Lewis

Paul Pierce

Ray Allen

Devin Harris

Mo Williams

Danny Granger

These were the reserves for the 2009 allstar game. Who exactly is the BU Center here Ex?

The backup center was the guy you left out, Horford.

WTF

[Diesel]

The backup center was the guy you left out, Horford.

WTF

Horford was a 2010 allstar you ninny!!

2009 allstar game....

There's your sign.

[MaceCase]

Mo Williams was an injury replacement for the F/C Chris Bosh and was a decision solely made by Stern. If you don't remember, the lack of size for the East squad was talked about at length that game.

[Diesel]

Mo Williams was an injury replacement for the F/C Chris Bosh and was a decision solely made by Stern. If you don't remember, the lack of size for the East squad was talked about at length that game.

We don't have to go round and round with this but position has not been a factor in reserve selections. I recall one year when Iverson was considered the only PG for the east.

No coach is going to snubb a guy because the team needs a Center and Brendan Heywood is next in line.

[exodus]

We don't have to go round and round with this but position has not been a factor in reserve selections. I recall one year when Iverson was considered the only PG for the east.

No coach is going to snubb a guy because the team needs a Center and Brendan Heywood is next in line.

Yes position is a factor. Bosh was the backup center two years ago.

Using Iverson as an example is silly because there is no distiction on the NBA All-Star ballot between point guards and shooting guards. There are just guards.

Edited December 29, 2010 by exodus

[MaceCase]

We don't have to go round and round with this but position has not been a factor in reserve selections. I recall one year when Iverson was considered the only PG for the east.

No coach is going to snubb a guy because the team needs a Center and Brendan Heywood is next in line.

No coach had a decision in replacing a big with a small, that decision was left entirely to the commissioner and he did it because the best team in the league that year kept bitching that they had only one allstar representative. Dynamics of a roster apply more to a coach than a lawyer.