Defensive rebounding

[exodus]

This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. The Hawks have always sucked on the defensive glass. Last year they were 24th. Currently they are tied for 12th.

I am convinced that the reason for this difference is that they aren't switching screens all the time. I think this kept Horford and Smith away from the glass too often and left our guards trying (or not trying) to box out bigs.

Most of the Woody critics (I was a card carrying Woody hater) seemed to focus on the lack of ball movement but i think it was the switching defense that was causing the most problems. A smart team could routinely take advantage of it and Woody refused to make any adjustments.

[Gray Mule]

A rebound is worth it's weight in points. Sure, you don't score cvery time

that you secure a rebound but, on the other hand, your opponent doesn't

get a bucket full of second chance points either - - A stitch in time.

whether it is on their end of the floor or our end, rebounds are the lifeblood

of the team. Without them, you die.

:conversation:

[frosgrim]

This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. The Hawks have always sucked on the defensive glass. Last year they were 24th. Currently they are tied for 12th.

I am convinced that the reason for this difference is that they aren't switching screens all the time. I think this kept Horford and Smith away from the glass too often and left our guards trying (or not trying) to box out bigs.

Most of the Woody critics (I was a card carrying Woody hater) seemed to focus on the lack of ball movement but i think it was the switching defense that was causing the most problems. A smart team could routinely take advantage of it and Woody refused to make any adjustments.

Good stat and excellent obeservation. I agree that the switching defense had something to do with it. I did wonder if Collins getting so many starts has helped, but the guy doesn't play enough minutes to cause that big of an improvement.

[exodus]

Good stat and excellent obeservation. I agree that the switching defense had something to do with it. I did wonder if Collins getting so many starts has helped, but the guy doesn't play enough minutes to cause that big of an improvement.

Collins is averaging 4.68 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes which just so happens to be the exact same rate as Marvin. He sucks on the glass.

[Admin]

Collins is averaging 4.68 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes which just so happens to be the exact same rate as Marvin. He sucks on the glass.

I blame Marvin for Twin's poor rebounding nimbers!

[exodus]

I blame Marvin for Twin's poor rebounding nimbers!

While we're on the subject it isn't commonly known that Marvin is at fault for JJ's elbow injury. Apparently they were arm wrestling last june and JJ snapped Marvin's arm down so fast that he actually hurt himself.

jk

[Admin]

While we're on the subject it isn't commonly known that Marvin is at fault for JJ's elbow injury. Apparently they were arm wrestling last june and JJ snapped Marvin's arm down so fast that he actually hurt himself.

jk

Haha .. which in turn caused Marvin to wrench his back and it swelled up and the swelling never went away, it went straight to his duck booty!

[T21]

This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. The Hawks have always sucked on the defensive glass. Last year they were 24th. Currently they are tied for 12th.

I am convinced that the reason for this difference is that they aren't switching screens all the time. I think this kept Horford and Smith away from the glass too often and left our guards trying (or not trying) to box out bigs.

Most of the Woody critics (I was a card carrying Woody hater) seemed to focus on the lack of ball movement but i think it was the switching defense that was causing the most problems. A smart team could routinely take advantage of it and Woody refused to make any adjustments.

The thing about switching' D is that it's very similar to zone D, which means that there are no clear assignments on D... usually resulting in poor boxing out and D rebounding...

[DJlaysitup]

Collins is averaging 4.68 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes which just so happens to be the exact same rate as Marvin....

Actually Collins at that rate isn't terrible since he is in there with two quality rebounders in Horf and Smoove - who have considerably more hops.

But - jumping up that far (in ranking) means somebody else has to be getting considerably more boards...possibly because of the matchups that are caused with Collins at center in the "big" lineup.

OR maybe it's Bibby!...he had ten boards the other night I believe. :stirthepot:

Edited January 6, 2011 by DJlaysitup

[exodus]

Actually Collins at that rate isn't terrible since he is in there with two quality rebounders in Horf and Smoove - who have considerably more hops.

Marvin was in the game with Horford and Smith too and was rebounding at the same rate playing on the perimeter.

4.68 defensive rebounds per 36 is absolutely putrid for a center no matter what the circumstances.

[DJlaysitup]

Marvin was in the game with Horford and Smith too and was rebounding at the same rate playing on the perimeter.

4.68 defensive rebounds per 36 is absolutely putrid for a center no matter what the circumstances.

But Marvin wasn't guarding a center nor was he taking up the space in the middle allowing Horford and Smoove to be more well matched size-wise (and even creating a few mismatches inside on the boards).

And 4.68 D boards for a center isn't exactly putrid...add in a couple offensive boards or so and you are near seven total boards per game while playing alongside two of the better rebounding forwards in the game today.

[TheTruth]

But Marvin wasn't guarding a center nor was he taking up the space in the middle allowing Horford and Smoove to be more well matched size-wise (and even creating a few mismatches inside on the boards).

And 4.68 D boards for a center isn't exactly putrid...add in a couple offensive boards or so and you are near seven total boards per game while playing alongside two of the better rebounding forwards in the game today.

Yeah, but he's not even doing that. If Collins was even a halfway decent rebounder, him full-time (or at least more time) at C would make a lot more sense for us than it does now.

It is what it is...he is an absolutely terrible rebounder. Period.

[exodus]

But Marvin wasn't guarding a center nor was he taking up the space in the middle allowing Horford and Smoove to be more well matched size-wise (and even creating a few mismatches inside on the boards).

And 4.68 D boards for a center isn't exactly putrid...add in a couple offensive boards or so and you are near seven total boards per game while playing alongside two of the better rebounding forwards in the game today.

It absolutely is putrid. Out of 63 possible centers in the league Collins is 50th in defensive rebounding rate.

click

Looking at all NBA players neither Horford or Smith are top 20 in the league in defensive rebounding rate so it isn't like Collins doesn't have chances for defensive boards.

[DJlaysitup]

Looking at all NBA players neither Horford or Smith are top 20 in the league in defensive rebounding rate so it isn't like Collins doesn't have chances for defensive boards.

No but that's because Smoove and Horford are very good rebounders on the SAME TEAM...in the same starting lineup. Let's not be so silly as to think that if you had the three best rebounders in the league on the same team they would all be able to maintain their averages...there are only a limited amount of rebounds to go around in any game.

The only way you can really judge the deal is by Dolfan's initial point. We were 24th in the league in defensive rebounding last year - and we have advanced 12 spots to 12th in the league this year.

That's a pretty decent step up.

[exodus]

No but that's because Smoove and Horford are very good rebounders on the SAME TEAM...in the same starting lineup. Let's not be so silly as to think that if you had the three best rebounders in the league on the same team they would all be able to maintain their averages...there are only a limited amount of rebounds to go around in any game.

The only way you can really judge the deal is by Dolfan's initial point. We were 24th in the league in defensive rebounding last year - and we have advanced 12 spots to 12th in the league this year.

That's a pretty decent step up.

If you keep reaching you are going to sprain a ligament somewhere. Collins has been crap on the boards FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER. This is not a new development. His career average is 4.4 defensive rebounds per 36 which absolutely sucks.

Plus didn't even play in 11 of the Hawks games and only plays 11 minutes per game in the games he does play. You might as well say that the Hawks are rebounding more because of Powell (who has a better rebound rate than Collins and has played more minutes FYI).

It wasn't Dolfan who brought up the Hawks jump from 24th to 12th. It was me.

Edited January 7, 2011 by exodus

[DJlaysitup]

...It wasn't Dolfan who brought up the Hawks jump from 24th to 12th. It was me.

Ooops...sorry about that. :kickcan: but it doesn't change anything. How can you explain that kind of a jump in rebounding if not for the fact that the big lineup is putting our natural PF against another PF (instead of trying to block out a bigger center) and we have a more athletic SF who can snag rebounds away from the other SFs with ease. Collins doesn't have to actually GET the rebounds - he has to block out the opposing center. By doing that he frees up Horford to athletically go after a rebound.

Now I'm no huge Collins fan - but he is doing his job against opposing centers and we are a better rebounding team because of it (and he does get some himself).

[exodus]

Ooops...sorry about that. :kickcan: but it doesn't change anything. How can you explain that kind of a jump in rebounding if not for the fact that the big lineup is putting our natural PF against another PF (instead of trying to block out a bigger center) and we have a more athletic SF who can snag rebounds away from the other SFs with ease. Collins doesn't have to actually GET the rebounds - he has to block out the opposing center. By doing that he frees up Horford to athletically go after a rebound.

Now I'm no huge Collins fan - but he is doing his job against opposing centers and we are a better rebounding team because of it (and he does get some himself).

Can you even read?

Collins didn't even play in 11 of the Hawks games. he only plays 11 minutes per game in the games he does play.

Not to mention that he has been a crap rebounder his entire career.

I already explained the most likely reason for the Hawks jump in rebounding in my initial post but it looks like you forgot that too just like you forgot that i was the one who brought the subject up in the first place.

Edited January 7, 2011 by exodus

[DJlaysitup]

...Collins didn't even play in 11 of the Hawks games....

I trust your stats. But let's just think a few minutes OK? We have played a lot more than 11 games right?

Besides, my point about the fact that the big lineup is key to our improved defensive rebounding doesn't revolve totally around Collins...it's about the BIG LINEUP. I believe Zaza started a few games in the big lineup earlier this year too.

The main thing is that NOW Collins is performing pretty well as a center - working against an opposing center and making it to where Al Horford doesn't have to stick his butt into all the centers in the league when the ball is up in the air (and Smoove doesn't have to worry about PFs). That gives our forwards more freedom to sweep the boards. There is no way you can pin this on the guards because our best rebounding guard was out before Marvin was injured (forcing the big lineup).

As far as Collins' statistics prior to this year - I really don't care. He lost weight and got into better shape for this season (everybody can see that) and has been playing at a considerably higher level.

[tbhawksfan]

Your both bringing up contributing factors. Imagine the results if we could field a decent C in our BIG ball roration.

[frosgrim]

I think the key is that we need to find a big body to play 25 minutes a night to put a body on the opposing C. Collins is terrible but his presence allows Horford to get a break from playing the 5.

That said, the only real factor in this equation that seems to make sense is what Ex originally brought up: the change from the zone-switch defense to a pure man-to-man defense. That keeps Horford around the paint. How many times did Horford have to switch to the opposing PG over the past few years!?! Man I hated that mess.