Defensive rebounding

[AHF]

...and as far as Collins having little more rebounds than Teague...useless stat...grasping at straws...Teague plays in garbage time...Collins plays at the beginning of games, when it counts. :kickcan:

It goes to the absolute pathetic rebounding ability of Collins.

For example:

Jason Collins - 7'0'' - 341 minutes played, 45 defensive rebounds

Marcus Thornton - 6'4'' - 384 minutes played, 54 defensive rebounds

Jon Brockman - 6'7'' - 311 minutes, 46 defensive rebounds

Gerald Henderson - 6'5'' - 347 minutes, 37 defensive rebounds

Sasha Vujacic - 6'7'' - 290 minutes, 32 defensive rebounds

Quincy Pondexter - 6'6'' - 301 minutes, 31 defensive rebounds

Ishmael Smith - 6'0'' - 309 minutes, 31 defensive rebounds

Call me crazy, but if you are playing in the paint and are one half to one foot taller than these guys, you should be materially outperforming them on the boards - especially when they are guarding guys on the perimeter.

[Admin]

I just realized something. This post..

might be the longest run-on sentence in HS history. Bravo! :thumbsupsmileyanim:

That's it, you're banned!! ... but wow yeah that was a terribly long run on sentence for sure.

[DJlaysitup]

It goes to the absolute pathetic rebounding ability of Collins.

For example:

Jason Collins - 7'0'' - 341 minutes played, 45 defensive rebounds

Marcus Thornton - 6'4'' - 384 minutes played, 54 defensive rebounds

Jon Brockman - 6'7'' - 311 minutes, 46 defensive rebounds

Gerald Henderson - 6'5'' - 347 minutes, 37 defensive rebounds

Sasha Vujacic - 6'7'' - 290 minutes, 32 defensive rebounds

Quincy Pondexter - 6'6'' - 301 minutes, 31 defensive rebounds

Ishmael Smith - 6'0'' - 309 minutes, 31 defensive rebounds

Call me crazy, but if you are playing in the paint and are one half to one foot taller than these guys, you should be materially outperforming them on the boards - especially when they are guarding guys on the perimeter.

What it really does say is hackers who play garbage minutes get more rebounding opportunities...and often long rebounds...because they are playing in garbage time when all the scrubs jack shots at will.

Granted Collins is a bit of an odd-ball when it comes down to comparing stats...but he plays at the beginning of games when it counts.

As far as ex's comment:

"The Hawks are getting just as many defensive rebounds in the games Collins doesn't play. "

Well of course they are - somebody has to get the rebounds...they don't just fall on the floor...duh.

[exodus]

What it really does say is hackers who play garbage minutes get more rebounding opportunities...and often long rebounds...because they are playing in garbage time when all the scrubs jack shots at will.

Granted Collins is a bit of an odd-ball when it comes down to comparing stats...but he plays at the beginning of games when it counts.

As far as ex's comment:

"The Hawks are getting just as many defensive rebounds in the games Collins doesn't play. "

Well of course they are - somebody has to get the rebounds...they don't just fall on the floor...duh.

That somebody could easily be THE OTHER TEAM.

Your whole point has been that Collins helps the Hawks get more defensive rebounds which means less offensive rebounds for the other team. However the Hawks are getting just as many defensive rebounds when he doesn't play.

So how is Collins helping the defensive rebounding?

Edited January 11, 2011 by exodus

[lethalweapon3]

(I know, "not helping," I know...)

~lw3

[DJlaysitup]

So how is Collins helping the defensive rebounding?

He helps by blocking out the opposing center...simple as that.

Does he do it 40 minutes a game? No...but he's been doing it 20+ minutes a game since LD has activated him as a starter. I realize the averages are lower since Collins wasn't starting earlier - still - since he has been starting (mostly) those averages have changed.

[AHF]

What it really does say is hackers who play garbage minutes get more rebounding opportunities...and often long rebounds...because they are playing in garbage time when all the scrubs jack shots at will.

Granted Collins is a bit of an odd-ball when it comes down to comparing stats...but he plays at the beginning of games when it counts.

As far as ex's comment:

"The Hawks are getting just as many defensive rebounds in the games Collins doesn't play. "

Well of course they are - somebody has to get the rebounds...they don't just fall on the floor...duh.

If you don't like scrubs who play on the perimeter and outrebound Collins, here are some others who rebound at a higher rate than Collins despite playing on the perimeter and giving up serious height:

Damion James

Roger Mason

Evan Turner

Quentin Richardson

Thabo Sefolosha

J.R. Smith

Andre Iguodala

Here are forwards that stand 6'8'' or shorter and outrebound him (excluding scrubs):

Reggie Evans

Udonis Haslem

DeJuan Blair

Paul Millsap

Gerald Wallace

Carmelo Anthony

Landry Fields

Chuck Hayes

Mike Miller

Andres Nocioni

Terrence Williams

Antawn Jamison

Elton Brand

LeBron James

Corey Maggette

James Posey

Linus Kleiza

Matt Barnes

Jamario Moon

Tracy McGrady

Quentin Richardson

Shawn Marion

Trevor Ariza

Brandon Bass

Anthony Tolliver

Wilson Chandler

Paul Pierce

Chase Budinger

Now in terms of comparing apples to apples, 63 of the 80 guys standing 6'11'' or higher rebound better than Collins.

Is it a coincidence that out of the 80 players standing 6'11'' or higher, #64 and #80 based on DRB% happen to be twins with the last name of Collins?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=gkEMk

Edited January 11, 2011 by AHF

[DJlaysitup]

Landry Fields

Just picking a player at random out of your list...Landry Fields...rookie from Stanford...6-7...for the New York Knickerbockers.

Plays 32 minutes per game. Averages 1.7 offensive rebounds in that time period...and 5.7 defensive rebounds in the same. Pretty good.

Now don't get me wrong - even with his limited offense - this guy looks like he would be a nice guy to have..nowhere near Smoove...but nice. But he is simply too small to play center. (I can't believe a 6-7 200+ lb guy is thought of as small these days)

So basically - comparing a SF/PF to a center is like comparing apples to oranges. :sad:

[exodus]

He helps by blocking out the opposing center...simple as that.

Does he do it 40 minutes a game? No...but he's been doing it 20+ minutes a game since LD has activated him as a starter. I realize the averages are lower since Collins wasn't starting earlier - still - since he has been starting (mostly) those averages have changed.

So why do the Hawks get just as many defensive rebounds when he doesn't play at all?

*crickets*

[Diesel]

I would argue that Smith's increased perimeter shooting is the reason for his decreased offensive rebounding.

To answer your question though i have no problem giving up 1 or 2 offensive rebounds to have better transition defense. For every offensive rebound that you get there will probably be 2 or 3 that you don't get and in those cases you will be trailing the play in transition.

Side note to Dolfan, where does this "dictatorship" business come from? That seems like a pretty bizarre accusation.

I know Smoove's OR numbers are down and he is farther out but the truth is:

On offense, Smoove is not a low post player and with him being high post and getting back in transition, our defense is better. The big lineup improves us by moving Al to PF. He gets less PFs and he also has a higher percentage shooting. I agree with Dol that we need to find an upgrade to twin there but for now, it's working.

So why do the Hawks get just as many defensive rebounds when he doesn't play at all?

*crickets*

If it were about statistics, maybe you should look at how many rebounds the opp C gets when Collins is in the game. What is the FG% of the opposing C when Collins play vs. when Horf plays?

I think just going by how many boards Collins get is not enough to evaluate his effect.

[exodus]

I know Smoove's OR numbers are down and he is farther out but the truth is:

On offense, Smoove is not a low post player and with him being high post and getting back in transition, our defense is better. The big lineup improves us by moving Al to PF. He gets less PFs and he also has a higher percentage shooting. I agree with Dol that we need to find an upgrade to twin there but for now, it's working.

If it were about statistics, maybe you should look at how many rebounds the opp C gets when Collins is in the game. What is the FG% of the opposing C when Collins play vs. when Horf plays?

I think just going by how many boards Collins get is not enough to evaluate his effect.

It abolutely shows his effect. Per 48 stats don't distinguish between someone who plays 5 minutes and someone who plays 30.

Collins rarely plays and sucks on the boards when he does play. He averages only 1.15 rebounds a game. That is a joke.

[lethalweapon3]

~lw3

[Atlantaholic]

Jason Collins has only played 341 minutes out of 1872 + minutes. (18% of the time) And he doesn't rebound when he is in there (2.2 RPG). How the heck can anyone say that we are rebounding better because of Collins? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

A few facts to illustrate the sheer absurdity of this claim: 1) The Hawks have 1580 total rebounds on the season. Jason Collins has 62, which means that he has accounted for a little under 4% of our rebounds this season. 2) In the games Jason Collins has not played in the Hawks average 31.25 defensive rebounds per game, which is higher than their season average of 31.1.

Jason Collins is a dude that has had a positive impact on the team maybe in three or four games all season. He is still one of the worst players in the league and our success on the defensive glass is obviously due to our change in defensive philosophy, just like the decrease in offensive rebounds is due to our shift in offensive philosophy. Point is: Out of all our rotation players I can't think of anyone outside of Mo Evans who does less than Collins. Both of them are usually doing absolutely nothing while they are out there other than staying out of the way of Josh Smith, Al Horford, Joe Johnson, and Jamal Crawford.

[jhay610]

What it really does say is hackers who play garbage minutes get more rebounding opportunities...and often long rebounds...because they are playing in garbage time when all the scrubs jack shots at will.

Granted Collins is a bit of an odd-ball when it comes down to comparing stats...but he plays at the beginning of games when it counts.

The point of the comment was not about Teague's amazing defensive rebounding numbers -- it was made to point out how awful Collins' rebounding numbers are. Teague is not a good rebounder, so there is no need to rationalize as to why his defensive rebounding rate is up, because it's not. Collins' is just really bad.

This has been demonstrably borne out over the course of his career. This is Twin. As Colin Cowherd would say, "Own your baggage".

[AHF]

Just picking a player at random out of your list...Landry Fields...rookie from Stanford...6-7...for the New York Knickerbockers.

Plays 32 minutes per game. Averages 1.7 offensive rebounds in that time period...and 5.7 defensive rebounds in the same. Pretty good.

Now don't get me wrong - even with his limited offense - this guy looks like he would be a nice guy to have..nowhere near Smoove...but nice. But he is simply too small to play center. (I can't believe a 6-7 200+ lb guy is thought of as small these days)

So basically - comparing a SF/PF to a center is like comparing apples to oranges. :sad:

So let me get this right.

Collins improves our rebounding and we know this because:

* Even though he has fewer defensive rebounds than a scrub, perimeter-playing point guard like Teague, scrubs like Teague don't count because the minutes they play are in scrub time and not "real" time like Collins.

* When you eliminate the scrubs, you can come up with dozens of guys who are dramatically shorter, many of whom play on the perimeter, and still actually outrebound Collins but those guys don't count because they are point guards, shooting guards, and forwards and Collins is a center.

* When you look at centers, Collins ranks 64th out of 80 guys 6'11'' or higher. Both he and his twin are among the very worst rebounders in the entire league but this isn't a meaningful comparison because not all those guys play with rebounding studs like Josh and Al so it isn't a real comparison.

* When you look at our team, our team actually gets more defensive rebounds in games that Collins doesn't play in but that doesn't count because we faced different opponents in those games and so it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Is that about right?

If wecan't compare him to other scrubs,

we can't compare him to anyone who isn't similarly situated by position,

we can't compare him to other guys his size,

and we can't compare the performance of the Hawks on the defensive boards in games in which he does and oesn't play,

where do you suggest we look to see the sign of this improved defensive rebounding that is attributable to Collins' studly efforts on the boards?

[jhay610]

where do you suggest we look to see the sign of this improved defensive rebounding that is attributable to Collins' studly efforts on the boards?

In our hearts and minds. Duh. :snowballfight:

[DJlaysitup]

So let me get this right.

Collins improves our rebounding and we know this because:

*1 Even though he has fewer defensive rebounds than a scrub, perimeter-playing point guard like Teague, scrubs like Teague don't count because the minutes they play are in scrub time and not "real" time like Collins.

*2 When you eliminate the scrubs, you can come up with dozens of guys who are dramatically shorter, many of whom play on the perimeter, and still actually outrebound Collins but those guys don't count because they are point guards, shooting guards, and forwards and Collins is a center.

*3 When you look at centers, Collins ranks 64th out of 80 guys 6'11'' or higher. Both he and his twin are among the very worst rebounders in the entire league but this isn't a meaningful comparison because not all those guys play with rebounding studs like Josh and Al so it isn't a real comparison.

*4 When you look at our team, our team actually gets more defensive rebounds in games that Collins doesn't play in but that doesn't count because we faced different opponents in those games and so it is like comparing apples to oranges.

Is that about right?....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually - YES!

#1 Yes..he has been playing real time against actual big NBA centers.

#2 Yes...Collins is a center...just like the Coach of the Atlanta Hawks said, he blocks out opposing centers which allows our quality rebounding forwards to sweep the boards.

#3 Yes...it is not a fair comparison at all since Smoove and Al Horford are very athletic rebounders and grab the ball while he is blocking out the opposing center.

#4 Yes - Exactly - because Collins is only used against the teams with taller players ( and bigger )...so it only makes sense that our team will have to fight harder to get rebounds against those teams. When we are up against smaller teams Collins is not a factor...and we get D rebounds more easily....therefore - we get more.

apples to oranges

Edited January 15, 2011 by DJlaysitup

[exodus]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually - YES!

#1 Yes..he has been playing real time against actual big NBA centers.

#2 Yes...Collins is a center...just like the Coach of the Atlanta Hawks said, he blocks out opposing centers which allows our quality rebounding forwards to sweep the boards.

#3 Yes...it is not a fair comparison at all since Smoove and Al Horford are very athletic rebounders and grab the ball while he is blocking out the opposing center.

#4 Yes - Exactly - because Collins is only used against the teams with taller players ( and bigger )...so it only makes sense that our team will have to fight harder to get rebounds against those teams. When we are up against smaller teams Collins is not a factor...and we get D rebounds more easily....therefore - we get more.

apples to oranges

It is amazing how you can rationalize anything to fit your agenda, ignoring all facts/evidence. You have no evidence that rebounds are easier to get in garbage time and you have no evidence that Collins even makes any attempt to block out anyone yet you believe both to be facts. Like i said you see what you want to see. That is why you believed Zaza had started several games even though he hasn't started 1 game.

But then what can we expect from a Belkin fan.

Edited January 15, 2011 by exodus

[AHF]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually - YES!

#1 Yes..he has been playing real time against actual big NBA centers.

#2 Yes...Collins is a center...just like the Coach of the Atlanta Hawks said, he blocks out opposing centers which allows our quality rebounding forwards to sweep the boards.

#3 Yes...it is not a fair comparison at all since Smoove and Al Horford are very athletic rebounders and grab the ball while he is blocking out the opposing center.

#4 Yes - Exactly - because Collins is only used against the teams with taller players ( and bigger )...so it only makes sense that our team will have to fight harder to get rebounds against those teams. When we are up against smaller teams Collins is not a factor...and we get D rebounds more easily....therefore - we get more.

apples to oranges

If you think everything is apples to oranges why are you saying he improves our rebounding? You can't compare apples and oranges and therefore can't know if there is improvement or not.

[DJlaysitup]

If you think everything is apples to oranges why are you saying he improves our rebounding? You can't compare apples and oranges and therefore can't know if there is improvement or not.

The "apples to oranges" part was only in response to your fourth point...in that we may get less D rebounds when Collins (or another big at center) is in the game. The point was, if we are using a Big Lineup - it is in response to a team that has us at a disadvantage due to their size. Therefore, the Big Lineup (often including Collins) will actually get less D rebounds in a game than a Horford/Smoove/Marvin lineup against a poorer rebounding team.

Still...while the Collins/Horford/Smoove starting front line may produce less D rebounds against a team like ORL...that starting lineup lessens the differential that would be there if we simply started the smaller lineup.

It would be worse if we went small against big teams.

LD has said as such. :kickcan:

Edited January 15, 2011 by DJlaysitup