Wondering where all the people who wanted to trade Josh are now

[AHF]

Expendable for the greater good. If Josh's trade can help us shore up our weaknesses, he is expendable. Not exactly addition by subtraction but we also realize that we have a PF playing out of Position and Josh is playing PF.

I approved the quote (and have said repeatedly) that no one is untouchable and you always make the trade the benefits the team. What I mean by expendable is someone that you get rid of to clear the deck for a better core for the team. Gilbert Arenas was expendable in Washington because the team was now Wall's and Gilbert was kind of just in the way and overpaid. Josh is a core guy here until we get offered something better than him - and that goes for Joe and Al as well.

[NineOhTheRino]

Honestly games like this make me like Josh less. Why is he not working the boards every night? Shouldn't take an All Star snub to motivate a player to do what he's paid to do.

Edited February 7, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[thecampster]

I am in no way discussing the "untouchable" status of any player. I was commenting on the ridiculous knee jerk reaction of a couple nights ago when Josh had a bad game and 9 or 10 members were yelling he was a bum and to get him out of town. I hate those fair weather, can't see the forest for the trees approach posts. You could have Josh having bad shooting nights but still shooting around 50%, blocking shots, getting steals, boards, assists and playing good team defense or you can get a different forward in here playing matador defense and getting abused.

The same people yelling he's a bum are the ones screaming we should get an all star PG and NBA quality starting center in return for him. Which is it? Is he a bum or is he worth and allstar and a starter? Then he comes back on a night with AL out, other players hobbled and rescues the team on a night they probably should have lost to a very low quality opponent.

News Flash, no Josh in that game and you lose to the Wizards. Just like the previous night...no Horford that night and you lose to the Clippers. More often than not it's Horf and Smith that win this team games by doing what it takes to win. Other players get their points, Horford and Smith win ball games.

Edited February 8, 2011 by thecampster

[Atlantaholic]

I am in no way discussing the "untouchable" status of any player. I was commenting on the ridiculous knee jerk reaction of a couple nights ago when Josh had a bad game and 9 or 10 members were yelling he was a bum and to get him out of town. I hate those fair weather, can't see the forest for the trees approach posts. You could have Josh having bad shooting nights but still shooting around 50%, blocking shots, getting steals, boards, assists and playing good team defense or you can get a different forward in here playing matador defense and getting abused.

The same people yelling he's a bum are the ones screaming we should get an all star PG and NBA quality starting center in return for him. Which is it? Is he a bum or is he worth and allstar and a starter? Then he comes back on a night with AL out, other players hobbled and rescues the team on a night they probably should have lost to a very low quality opponent.

News Flash, no Josh in that game and you lose to the Wizards. Just like the previous night...no Horford that night and you lose to the Clippers. More often than not it's Horf and Smith that win this team games by doing what it takes to win. Other players get their points, Horford and Smith win ball games.

I see what you are saying but really there is literally only like one poster on the entire site who is a Josh hater. The rest of us I think are pretty much fair with the guy. We are all Hawks fans and have watched Smith play since he was a teenager so these reactions are hardly "knee jerk", they are simply frustrations that arise form seeing a 7 year pro continue to make the same damn mistakes over and over again. The guy is obviously talented and a rare multi demensional player, and you are totally kidding yourself if you don't know that 99% of posters on this site fully understand this. Problem is the guy has been up and down his whole career and we already have a player on the roster who could play his position at a higher level with better consistency and without all the whining and childish antics. For me the main reason I was always against the idea of trading Smith was because of his potential to become a Kevin Garnett (in his prime) type of player... well, that possibility is starting to seem pretty damn unlikely. At this stage, considering the state of our franchise if we can trade Smith for a player of close to equal value at a position of need, it is the right move.

[thecampster]

I see what you are saying but really there is literally only like one poster on the entire site who is a Josh hater. The rest of us I think are pretty much fair with the guy. We are all Hawks fans and have watched Smith play since he was a teenager so these reactions are hardly "knee jerk", they are simply frustrations that arise form seeing a 7 year pro continue to make the same damn mistakes over and over again. The guy is obviously talented and a rare multi demensional player, and you are totally kidding yourself if you don't know that 99% of posters on this site fully understand this. Problem is the guy has been up and down his whole career and we already have a player on the roster who could play his position at a higher level with better consistency and without all the whining and childish antics. For me the main reason I was always against the idea of trading Smith was because of his potential to become a Kevin Garnett (in his prime) type of player... well, that possibility is starting to seem pretty damn unlikely. At this stage, considering the state of our franchise if we can trade Smith for a player of close to equal value at a position of need, it is the right move.

Let's put it this way. On the list of problems on this team to deal with...Smith is behind

Mo Evans getting real minutes

Marvin's inconsistency

Bibby's defensive deficiencies/age

Jamal's looming contract

The size of Joe's contract

Teague's lack of development

Insert other common complaints

Here

Here

Here

Josh has shot less than 40% 14 times this year in 51 games. Of those times, he took more than 14 shots 4 times. I choose these numbers because the sampling is easily skewed with lower shot totals and shows a willingness in that game to defer. at 15 shots it takes 6 makes to shoot 40%. 8 to shoot over 50%. So only 4 times all year the guy has missed at that rate and continued to shoot.

Compare that with Joe. in 10 less games played he shot less than 40% 18 times (4 more than Josh in 10 less games). 12 of those times he took 15 shots or more (8 more than Smith). Now I understand with JJ much of this was the elbow (I'm not saying switch the rhetoic to him). But I'm saying, the hate Josh gets is extraordinary comparitively. 12 of 41 games (29% of the time), Joe did what people were losing their minds at Josh for. 4 of 51 times Josh did it (8% of the time). It's so ridiculous it's beyond belief. If this was enough to call for Josh's head, by those numbers alone, Joe should have had the same happen 4 times as often (especially considering he makes 40% more).

The overreaction a little over a week ago was crazy. When you look at the stats among the top minutes people on the team (lets say top 9). Josh is 1st in Steals, Blocks, 2nd in Points, 3pt %, rebounds, 3rd in FT attempts.

I think the Hawks issues go much deeper than Josh Smith.

If you really want a person to ship out of town, I would have to say tops of the list is Mo Evans. He's getting almost 18 minutes a game and is shooting 39%, 31% from 3, 1.8 rebounds a game, his defense is less than average, he's slow to rotate on the wing and it seems every game, at least once I see him cut left when someone is trying to feed him going to the basket or he stops short, pass goes off his hands...something. I think you can just up the t/o ratio of the team by his very presence. That Mo is getting 18 minutes a game when Damien Wilkens (at 1/10th the price) was out of a job 50 days ago is ludicrious.

[Atlantaholic]

Let's put it this way. On the list of problems on this team to deal with...Smith is behind

Mo Evans getting real minutes

Marvin's inconsistency

Bibby's defensive deficiencies/age

Jamal's looming contract

The size of Joe's contract

Teague's lack of development

Insert other common complaints

Here

Here

Here

Josh has shot less than 40% 14 times this year in 51 games. Of those times, he took more than 14 shots 4 times. I choose these numbers because the sampling is easily skewed with lower shot totals and shows a willingness in that game to defer. at 15 shots it takes 6 makes to shoot 40%. 8 to shoot over 50%. So only 4 times all year the guy has missed at that rate and continued to shoot.

Compare that with Joe. in 10 less games played he shot less than 40% 18 times (4 more than Josh in 10 less games). 12 of those times he took 15 shots or more (8 more than Smith). Now I understand with JJ much of this was the elbow (I'm not saying switch the rhetoic to him). But I'm saying, the hate Josh gets is extraordinary comparitively. 12 of 41 games (29% of the time), Joe did what people were losing their minds at Josh for. 4 of 51 times Josh did it (8% of the time). It's so ridiculous it's beyond belief. If this was enough to call for Josh's head, by those numbers alone, Joe should have had the same happen 4 times as often (especially considering he makes 40% more).

The overreaction a little over a week ago was crazy. When you look at the stats among the top minutes people on the team (lets say top 9). Josh is 1st in Steals, Blocks, 2nd in Points, 3pt %, rebounds, 3rd in FT attempts.

I think the Hawks issues go much deeper than Josh Smith.

If you really want a person to ship out of town, I would have to say tops of the list is Mo Evans. He's getting almost 18 minutes a game and is shooting 39%, 31% from 3, 1.8 rebounds a game, his defense is less than average, he's slow to rotate on the wing and it seems every game, at least once I see him cut left when someone is trying to feed him going to the basket or he stops short, pass goes off his hands...something. I think you can just up the t/o ratio of the team by his very presence. That Mo is getting 18 minutes a game when Damien Wilkens (at 1/10th the price) was out of a job 50 days ago is ludicrious.

Ok. I thought I had been pretty clear in previous posts, but here goes once more: I, and I think I speak for pretty much the majority of the posters who have discussed trading Josh, am not saying Josh Smith is a PROBLEM. Josh Smith is our third or perhaps even second best player. The problem is our TEAM is not good enough,because we have no PG and we lack size and depth. In order to improve significantly we will have to make a BIG move that addresses one of those problems. The only players that will net us anything of value are Horford and Smith. Considering that Horford is the better player it makes sense to trade Smith IF we can get a potential All Star at PG or Center from the deal. (or a very good PG AND CENTER). If we make moves like cut Mo Evans, and Trade Jamal for Oj Mayo we will still be the same damn team with the same damn problems: No PG and lack of size in the front-court. OBVIOUSLY, if we can address one of those issues without trading Smith than we should do so, but REALISTICALLY if the Hawks are to acquire an impact player the most likely candidate to be moved is Josh, who is a VERY talented but flawed player.

[EazyRoc]

Let's put it this way. On the list of problems on this team to deal with...Smith is behind

Mo Evans getting real minutes

Marvin's inconsistency

Bibby's defensive deficiencies/age

Jamal's looming contract

The size of Joe's contract

Teague's lack of development

Insert other common complaints

Here

Here

Here

Josh has shot less than 40% 14 times this year in 51 games. Of those times, he took more than 14 shots 4 times. I choose these numbers because the sampling is easily skewed with lower shot totals and shows a willingness in that game to defer. at 15 shots it takes 6 makes to shoot 40%. 8 to shoot over 50%. So only 4 times all year the guy has missed at that rate and continued to shoot.

Compare that with Joe. in 10 less games played he shot less than 40% 18 times (4 more than Josh in 10 less games). 12 of those times he took 15 shots or more (8 more than Smith). Now I understand with JJ much of this was the elbow (I'm not saying switch the rhetoic to him). But I'm saying, the hate Josh gets is extraordinary comparitively. 12 of 41 games (29% of the time), Joe did what people were losing their minds at Josh for. 4 of 51 times Josh did it (8% of the time). It's so ridiculous it's beyond belief. If this was enough to call for Josh's head, by those numbers alone, Joe should have had the same happen 4 times as often (especially considering he makes 40% more).

The overreaction a little over a week ago was crazy. When you look at the stats among the top minutes people on the team (lets say top 9). Josh is 1st in Steals, Blocks, 2nd in Points, 3pt %, rebounds, 3rd in FT attempts.

I think the Hawks issues go much deeper than Josh Smith.

If you really want a person to ship out of town, I would have to say tops of the list is Mo Evans. He's getting almost 18 minutes a game and is shooting 39%, 31% from 3, 1.8 rebounds a game, his defense is less than average, he's slow to rotate on the wing and it seems every game, at least once I see him cut left when someone is trying to feed him going to the basket or he stops short, pass goes off his hands...something. I think you can just up the t/o ratio of the team by his very presence. That Mo is getting 18 minutes a game when Damien Wilkens (at 1/10th the price) was out of a job 50 days ago is ludicrious.

It's not hate, nor is it extraordinary. First off, their roles are different on this team so expectations should be different. Most importantly, people aren't getting mad at a basketball player (Josh Smith) for taking a jumpshot, per se. They're upset that instead of playing to his strength offensively, he is doing the thing he is worst at. Could you imagine how people would feel about Shaq if he pump faked and flopped in an attempt to draw a foul, instead of just dunking the ball in the first place ?

Joe Johnson was receiving a lot of criticism during his slump as well, so that makes your point null and void. It's also hard to get mad at a player who is actually playing to his strength, but just hasn't been getting things to drop.

The problem with trying to ship Mo Evans out of town is that you would get absolutely nothing for him. So what would be the point ? Most of us don't to trade Josh Smith for a bag of peanuts and a Bud Light. We want to gather either a superstar or a good player that will fill a position of need. I don't think that's hateful at all, and unless he plays with consistency and within himself, he'd be the one I want to trade first.

[AHF]

I think a lot of the Josh frustration is because of those team issues you list, Josh's bad jumpers and distraction from yelling at the refs are by far the easiest problems to fix. Bibby can't fix his foot speed. Crawford's contract is a complicated issue made more complicated to those of us on the Squawk since we don't know the underlying budget numbers for the team, there is no quick fix that makes Mo Evans a significantly better player, etc.