What has Horf really done?

[Diesel]

I see a lot of squawkers who suggest that Horf is untouchable.

MY QUESTION is why? What makes Horf untouchable? What has he done?

My statement: "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king!"

This is my description of Both of Horf's allstar appearances.

Negating those, Horf is a 16/10 C who plays 35 mpg.

Smoove is a 17/9 PF who plays about the same mpg and we'd trade him much easier.

I understand we need a C. However, does our need for a C make Horf unmovable? Or is there something on the court that elevates him to that level.

Because when we had Deke, he was 11/14 C and we had fans that couldn't wait to trade him.

[Bawse]

Horford is still young and has established a leadership role on this team. He still has room to grow, and if we get an actual center he will move to the PF position. With that being said, Horford is an undersized C who basically averages a double-double with good defense. Without him in our lineup there is a gaping hole, we have witnessed that.

[buckeye242424]

I see a lot of squawkers who suggest that Horf is untouchable.

MY QUESTION is why? What makes Horf untouchable? What has he done?

My statement: "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king!"

This is my description of Both of Horf's allstar appearances.

Negating those, Horf is a 16/10 C who plays 35 mpg.

Smoove is a 17/9 PF who plays about the same mpg and we'd trade him much easier.

I understand we need a C. However, does our need for a C make Horf unmovable? Or is there something on the court that elevates him to that level.

Because when we had Deke, he was 11/14 C and we had fans that couldn't wait to trade him.

I think it's a more question of character than stats. Horf is a proven winner, see Florida. His attitude, work ethic, and leadership make him a much more valuable player compared to a player that doesn't have those intangibles with similar numbers.

[niremetal]

1) 16/10 Cs are not exactly plentiful in the NBA. Last time I checked, the only center in the NBA averaging both more points and more rebounds than Al is Dwight.

2) Al is both young and consistent, which is a rare combination for a big man. Smoove is young, true, but he's in his 7th year as a pro and he still is frustratingly inconsistent. That makes it easier for me to pull the trigger to trade him.

3) As for the "kingdom of the blind" argument, people keep remembering the 1990's, a rare age when there were at least 6 Hall-of-Fame quality centers in their prime at the same time (Shaq, Hakeem, Admiral, Mourning, Ewing, and Deke), 4 of whom were 7-footers (Mourning and, by his own admission, Hakeem were 6'10), and there probably would have been another if Daugherty had stayed healthy and yet another if Sabonis had come to the NBA earlier. There were also guys like Divac and Willis who, if they entered their primes in the modern NBA, would likely have been perennial All-Stars. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the 90's were a normal era for NBA centers. That was, in fact, an exceptional era for NBA centers. Typically in the NBA's history, there have been no more than 2-3 Hall of Fame centers in their prime at the same time, and no more than 1 or 2 HOF 7-footers. In any case, the 90s era is gone. There are fewer big men with that sort of skill set around, and the skill set necessary to be a successful NBA center has changed in any case. Al is more athletic than any of the 90's-era guys save Hakeem, and athleticism is more important for big men today than it was for big men in the 90's.

In the modern NBA, Al has the size, athleticism, and skill set necessary to play either PF or center effectively most nights. He's a budding team leader, he's only 24, he's consistent, and he still seems to be improving (which surprises even me). That's why he should be untouchable unless the guy we're getting in return is All-NBA First Team caliber.

Edited February 21, 2011 by niremetal

[T21]

Well... I don't see Bill, Wilt, Hakeem, or young Shaq around... Like someone else mentioned here, you don't easily find players like Horford in this day and age...

I truly believe that he's our franchise player (until we get Dwight) for so many reasons...

[AHawks89]

This thread is about to get crazy. If anyone says anything good about Horford, then you will get a plus one, and if anything bad you will get a negative.

And let the games begin...

Edited February 21, 2011 by AHawks89

[Nicholasp27]

year before Al: No playoffs

year after Al: 23% increase in record and make Playoffs + take Boston to 7

every year since: improved record and make playoffs 2nd round

all we added in that offseason were horford and law

al is a winner; he proved it in college and he's proving it in the nba

[Bawse]

This thread is about to get crazy. If anyone says anything good about Horford, then you will get a plus one, and if anything bad you will get a negative.

And let the games begin...

What can you really say negative about Al Horford?

[EazyRoc]

This thread is about to get crazy. If anyone says anything good about Horford, then you will get a plus one, and if anything bad you will get a negative.

And let the games begin...

I mean what can you honestly say bad about Horford though ? He rebounds, he scores, and he plays defense. He does this all while playing smart and for the most part in control. He's one of the more efficient players in the league.

[AHawks89]

Why are you quoting me? I said get ready for negatives if you say anything negative. I didn't say anything about me. Funny how quickly people get offended.

However, I think Horford needs to stay at the center position. He's an All-Star at the Center, stop complaining. He might be under sized, but I think that's the right fit for him. We just need another big body to come in. I can't see him playing as good at PF than he is at Center; especially in the NBA level on a consistent basis. He's not as quick and athletic as most PF's in this league (Oh god, here we go). I would rather keep Horford & Smoove. Maybe move Smoove to the SF if we can bring in a PF with a proven or legit PG in a trade. I'd like to see Horford/Hickson/Smoove/Joe/Sessions.

Edited February 21, 2011 by AHawks89

[coachx]

I see a lot of squawkers who suggest that Horf is untouchable.

MY QUESTION is why? What makes Horf untouchable? What has he done?

The ability to defend the center position better then any Hawk since Mutumbo.

No one wants to see ZaZa and Collins as our only centers on the team.

Smoove is a 17/9 PF who plays about the same mpg and we'd trade him much easier.

1. PFs are easier to find then centers.

2. Josh cannot play C.

3. Josh makes much more mental mistakes then does Horford.

4. Josh is only locked up for 2 more seasons......Horford is locked up for 5 more seasons under contract.

Edited February 21, 2011 by coachx

[EazyRoc]

Why are you quoting me? I said get ready for negatives if you say anything negative. I didn't say anything about me. Funny how quickly people get offended.

However, I think Horford needs to stay at the center position. He's an All-Star at the Center, stop complaining. He might be under sized, but I think that's the right fit for him. I can't see him playing as good at PF than he is at Center; especially in the NBA level on a consistent basis. He's not as quick and athletic as most PF's in this league (Oh god, here we go). I would rather keep Horford & Smoove. Maybe move Smoove to the SF if we can bring in a PF with a proven or legit PG in a trade. I'd like to see Horford/Hickson/Smoove/Joe/Sessions.

What are you talking about ? You are the one who's getting defensive.

That just isn't true. There's only a handful of PFs who are quicker or more athletic than Horford. Blake Griffin, Chris Bosh, Josh Smith, Michael Beasley (though I don't know which F position he plays in Minnesota), and Jeff Green (though I don't consider him to be a real PF).

Edited February 21, 2011 by EazyRoc

[Bawse]

What are you talking about ? You are the one who got defensive

Yeah bro... we are quoting you because you were the one that made the first comment about the massive Horford love.

[Diesel]

year before Al: No playoffs

year after Al: 23% increase in record and make Playoffs + take Boston to 7

every year since: improved record and make playoffs 2nd round

all we added in that offseason were horford and law

al is a winner; he proved it in college and he's proving it in the nba

Year before Bibby: No playoffs.

With Bibby: Playoffs.

In fact, when Bibby joined up, we played better.

We were 15-14 in a 37 win season.

Bibby was a 14 and 6.5 PG at that point.

That means that we were 22-31 with Al and no Bibby.

[MaceCase]

What hasn't he done?

Scores efficiently, defends fantastically, rebounds greatly, passes phenomenally, leads superbly....I'm running out of superlatives here.

Only in his 4th season yet the only thing missing from his game is a baseline move and the ability to get to the line more and those don't seem to far off in the realm of possibility.

Year before Bibby: No playoffs.

With Bibby: Playoffs.

In fact, when Bibby joined up, we played better.

We were 15-14 in a 37 win season.

Bibby was a 14 and 6.5 PG at that point.

That means that we were 22-31 with Al and no Bibby.

Bibby's role has decreased since while Al's has risen so you could credit Bibby for the first year and Al ever since. Fair nuff'?

[AHawks89]

Wow. I hope yall are kidding. I'm the one wanting to keep Horford & Smoove. I don't see where yall are trying to get? Also coming from the dude named "Boss".

Like I said, Horford needs to stay at the Center position. It has it's pro's and con's and I think the pro's outweigh the cons. Horford NEEDS to stay at the Center position if he is going to be on this team. We NEED Josh on this team for his defense and impact. Like I said, I want Horford & Smoove both on this team, so you Horford lovers don't need to get offended. I like him too, chill. Like I said, it would be great if we could get Horford/Hickson/Smoove/Joe/Sessions.

Edit: As much as I like Josh & Al, I'm not a homer one bit. If Al looks like crap, I'll say it and vice versa with Josh. Let's be real here. This is not a pick your favorite guy and be a homer. I like to get on Josh or any other play when they have bad games. It's just crazy how people go overboard by tryin to protect their "guy". This is the Atlanta Hawks, not the Al Horford's.

Anyways, just to make yall even more mad.. Al looked completely lost out there in the All Star game, hence why he had no minutes. Hopefully, he won't look like that next year along JSmoove on his side. Joe look a hell lot better than the previous years.

Go Hawks!

Edited February 21, 2011 by AHawks89

[Bawse]

Wow. I hope yall are kidding. I'm the one wanting to keep Horford & Smoove. I don't see where yall are trying to get? Also coming from the dude named "Boss".

What does my name have to do with anything? I'm a huge supporter of Horford, and your original post seemed like you were taking shots at the members on the board for the unconditional love for him.

Re-word your post next time so it doesn't confuse the hell out of people.

[Diesel]

The ability to defend the center position better then any Hawk since Mutumbo.

No one wants to see ZaZa and Collins as our only centers on the team.

1. PFs are easier to find then centers.

2. Josh cannot play C.

3. Josh makes much more mental mistakes then does Horford.

4. Josh is only locked up for 2 more seasons......Horford is locked up for 5 more seasons under contract.

If we could get a very good PG and a C that's better than Collins for Horf, would you do it?

Say we could use Horf and Filler to get Nene and Felton.

or

Horf and Fliller to get us Gasol and Mayo...

or

Horf/Filler for McGee and Hinrich.

[EazyRoc]

Wow. I hope yall are kidding. I'm the one wanting to keep Horford & Smoove. I don't see where yall are trying to get? Also coming from the dude named "Boss".

Like I said, Horford needs to stay at the Center position. It has it's pro's and con's and I think the pro's outweigh the cons. Horford NEEDS to stay at the Center position if he is going to be on this team. We NEED Josh on this team for his defense and impact. Like I said, I want Horford & Smoove both on this team, so you Horford lovers don't need to get offended. I like him too, chill. Like I said, it would be great if we could get Horford/Hickson/Smoove/Joe/Sessions.

Edit: As much as I like Josh & Al, I'm not a homer one bit. If Al looks like crap, I'll say it and vice versa with Josh. Let's be real here. This is not a pick your favorite guy and be a homer. I like to get on Josh or any other play when they have bad games. It's just crazy how people go overboard by tryin to protect their "guy". This is the Atlanta Hawks, not the Al Horford's.

Anyways, just to make yall even more mad.. Al looked completely lost out there in the All Star game, hence why he had no minutes. Hopefully, he won't look like that next year along JSmoove on his side. Joe look a hell lot better than the previous years.

Go Hawks!

Kidding about what ?

I don't agree with your opinion regarding Horford's position. However, if we cannot get a center that can protect the rim and rebound there's no need to move him to PF.

Yes, Al did not look that good in the All Star game, but neither did Dwight Howard. So what's your point ? It's an All Star game. Basically like a pick up game at the gym.

[Watchman]

If we could get a very good PG and a C that's better than Collins for Horf, would you do it?

Say we could use Horf and Filler to get Nene and Felton.

or

Horf and Fliller to get us Gasol and Mayo...

or

Horf/Filler for McGee and Hinrich.

Who's gonna rebound if you trade Horford for Nene? Horford is a better scorer than Nene, a better rebounder and defender. Heck even Josh out rebounds Nene. Gasol and Mayo. I hope you mean Pau Gasol and mayonnaise, because the other Gasol ain't that good. McGee is intriguing but Hinrich seems to be in a rapid decline to me.