Life without Josh Smith

[thecampster]

We've been arguing on this board for weeks about how much better off the team would be if we traded away Josh for a center.

We've argued for just as long about who the best player / most important player on the team is.

Well in a 5 game sample without Josh, the Hawks are 1-4.

The average game score is: 92.4 - 103.4.

With Josh, the Hawks are 43 -32

The average game score is: 95.4 - 95.3.

This is just one of a series of stats that show the importance of Josh to this team.

Without Joe in the lineup the team was 6-4.

Without Al in the lineup the team was 3-2.

Small sample for games without? Yes.

Still very telling? Absolutely!!!

[MaceCase]

LMAO! Camp, the master of selective stat sampling to make his point. 3 of those five games occurred recently at the end of the season when nothing matters for the team. Before that we were 1-1 so by my Camp math we are a .500 team without Smoove and Jason Collins starting at C. God you supporters are so predictable. Like vultures looking for the first piece of carrion. We should create an Embattled Smoove section of the homecourt area where all of his blind supporters can preemptively and overreactively attack every perceived slight towards him.

Neg away.

[EazyRoc]

What you also left out in your samples were the actual teams we played during those stretches. It does matter.

[Joker]

This is a three man team. Without Joe, Josh, or Al, we suck because of that. We really are the Charlotte Bobcats with less depth without one of these three players. What's great is two of them are top 15 players usually and the other is a top 25-40 player. Otherwise we would suck. Jamal is a good player and need him but he's the only other good player on this roster. Teams like Houston have 6 good players and Denver has 10 of them. LAL have 5 good players but one of them is a top 3 player. Our problem is roster balance and a lack of a superstar.

[Supporter]

This is a three man team. Without Joe, Josh, or Al, we suck because of that. We really are the Charlotte Bobcats with less depth without one of these three players. What's great is two of them are top 15 players usually and the other is a top 25-40 player. Otherwise we would suck. Jamal is a good player and need him but he's the only other good player on this roster. Teams like Houston have 6 good players and Denver has 10 of them. LAL have 5 good players but one of them is a top 3 player. Our problem is roster balance and a lack of a superstar.

who are the top 15?

[Joker]

who are the top 15?

Horford, Joe was a top 15 player in recent years. Just not this year. He was around 13-16 with Brandon Roy. Horford is around 12-15. Josh Smith last year was top 25 (22-25) but now is 30-35 in my last count. After the top 10, the rest aren't superstars. 12-25 could be Horford or Joe depending on the person view of the players.

[thecampster]

LMAO! Camp, the master of selective stat sampling to make his point. 3 of those five games occurred recently at the end of the season when nothing matters for the team. Before that we were 1-1 so by my Camp math we are a .500 team without Smoove and Jason Collins starting at C. God you supporters are so predictable. Like vultures looking for the first piece of carrion. We should create an Embattled Smoove section of the homecourt area where all of his blind supporters can preemptively and overreactively attack every perceived slight towards him.

Neg away.

Nice and simple. you select to exclude 3 end of the season games.

Last year Josh and Al only missed one game each....there is no sample there. Joe missed 3 and we were 2-1 in those.

The reality is simple. As currently constructed 2011. Joe Johnson fills a slot on the team. The team rises and falls with Josh and Al.

[thecampster]

What you also left out in your samples were the actual teams we played during those stretches. It does matter.

Smith losses: Washington, Indiana, OKC, San Antonio (spurs were in a very long losing streak and struggling)

Smith Win: Chicago

Horford losses: New Orleans, PhiladelphiaHorford wins: Charolette, Washington, Portland

Johnson losses: Boston, Miami, San Antonio, DetroitJohnson Wins: Cleveland, Philadelphia, Memphis, Indiana, New Jersey, Orlando

the sampling only furthers the point. without Joe we lost to teams that would have been close games (sans detroit). But even without Joe 3 of the 6 team we beat are EC playoff teams this year.

now without Horford, we lose to the same Philly team we beat without Joe.

Without Smith, we lose to the same Indiana team we beat without Joe and are embarassed by Washington who we beat without Horford.

Every game is different so again this isn't scientific, it's just a small bit in the body of evidence that says Josh affects the game positively more than Joe and at least as much as Al.

there are other factors this obviously doesn't take into account like: who played hurt, who else was out, was the game on the road, back to backs....etc. But to anyone who watched that Washington game, the lack of interior D in the San Antonio game and who doesn't see the correlation, you just aren't paying attention to the defensive aspect of the game. An 11 point +/- in games he does not play in is significant.

[Supporter]

Smith losses: Washington, Indiana, OKC, San Antonio (spurs were in a very long losing streak and struggling)

Smith Win: Chicago

Horford losses: New Orleans, PhiladelphiaHorford wins: Charolette, Washington, Portland

Johnson losses: Boston, Miami, San Antonio, DetroitJohnson Wins: Cleveland, Philadelphia, Memphis, Indiana, New Jersey, Orlando

the sampling only furthers the point. without Joe we lost to teams that would have been close games (sans detroit). But even without Joe 3 of the 6 team we beat are EC playoff teams this year.

now without Horford, we lose to the same Philly team we beat without Joe.

Without Smith, we lose to the same Indiana team we beat without Joe and are embarassed by Washington who we beat without Horford.

Every game is different so again this isn't scientific, it's just a small bit in the body of evidence that says Josh affects the game positively more than Joe and at least as much as Al.

there are other factors this obviously doesn't take into account like: who played hurt, who else was out, was the game on the road, back to backs....etc. But to anyone who watched that Washington game, the lack of interior D in the San Antonio game and who doesn't see the correlation, you just aren't paying attention to the defensive aspect of the game. An 11 point +/- in games he does not play in is significant.

Dude it's the freakin end of the SEASON the guys don't give a rats *ss, and the starters play less minutes to close out the year. Stop trying to make up stuff just to endorse Josh's case, if he's as good as you make him seem then he doesn't need any defending aside from his play.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This is a three man team. Without Joe, Josh, or Al, we suck because of that. We really are the Charlotte Bobcats with less depth without one of these three players. What's great is two of them are top 15 players usually and the other is a top 25-40 player. Otherwise we would suck. Jamal is a good player and need him but he's the only other good player on this roster. Teams like Houston have 6 good players and Denver has 10 of them. LAL have 5 good players but one of them is a top 3 player. Our problem is roster balance and a lack of a superstar.

Excellent summation.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Johnson losses: Boston, Miami, San Antonio, DetroitJohnson Wins: Cleveland, Philadelphia, Memphis, Indiana, New Jersey, Orlando

the sampling only furthers the point. without Joe we lost to teams that would have been close games (sans detroit). But even without Joe 3 of the 6 team we beat are EC playoff teams this year.

Philly was an absolute dismal team back then . . just 5 - 13 at the time we played them.

Jersey was dismal . . . 6 - 15

Memphis was still trying to find their groove as a team . . . 8 - 10

Indiana was just above .500 . . . at 11 - 10

And we all know about Cleveland's struggles

Even with Orlando . . the "excuse" is that we beat them when they were sick

Fact is . . . we need all 3 guys ( JJ, Smith, Horford ) . . and for 3 different reasons

Smith - the QB of the defense, and one of the few energy, game changing guys we have on the defensive end

Horford - usually the steady rock on offense and defense that keeps our frontline one of the best in the league ( not lately, but normally )

JJ - the leader of the offense in which most plays flow through, coupled with his ability to create and make shots, plus create offense for others

Take away any of those guys, and the Hawks are a .500 or below team throughout the course of the season. Maybe if Jamal plays at an extremely high level, his loss may not be as impactful. But we need all 3 of the precious "core". It's the fringe players around the core that need significant upgrading, so that we don't miss too much of a beat when one of the core is out. Maybe if we had a Jamal Crawford equivalent at PF/C, we wouldn't miss Smith or Horford as much. But when your replacements are Collins, Pachulia, and Josh Powell . . . that's a huge problem.

[frosgrim]

We've been arguing on this board for weeks about how much better off the team would be if we traded away Josh for a center.

We've argued for just as long about who the best player / most important player on the team is... [Partial quote to save space]

You aren't factoring in the player in return.

Big point is that the current Hawks roster is fatally flawed. The players have retreated to their corners and aren't playing together. Until that is fixed, this team will go no where. Movement of players in the offseason is a must to:

1. improve chemistry

2. balance the skill sets- we need a post player and a pg :beathorse:

3. re-energize the fan base. This playoff series is probably going to set all-time attendance lows.

To paraphrase the Joker "This team needs an enema."

[Diesel]

We've been arguing on this board for weeks about how much better off the team would be if we traded away Josh for a center.

We've argued for just as long about who the best player / most important player on the team is.

Well in a 5 game sample without Josh, the Hawks are 1-4.

The average game score is: 92.4 - 103.4.

With Josh, the Hawks are 43 -32

The average game score is: 95.4 - 95.3.

This is just one of a series of stats that show the importance of Josh to this team.

Celtics, Spurs, Pacer, Wizards, Rockets. The losses were to teams with dominant bigs and still had a reason to play. We didn't.

Without Joe in the lineup the team was 6-4.

Without Al in the lineup the team was 3-2.

Small sample for games without? Yes.

Still very telling? Absolutely!!!

OK, where to start..

1. Replace Josh with a C, not a 3 point combination of Zaza and twin.

2. Josh's 5 games... were against who? JJ's against Who? Al against who?

Yes, we need Josh's defense. Sure, we like his scoring. However,he has to stop the foolishness