Hawks and Josh Smith may have had enough of each other

[Vol4ever]

Joe Johnson needs to be traded is the statement of penny pinching fans who don't know much about winning. They say Joe needs to be traded but can't point to any basketball reason for it. Just penny pinching. When was the last time there was an outcry for the Celts to trade Ray Allen? Ray is older than Joe, makes more than Joe and doesn't do as much as Joe. Yet, Celts fans adore Ray... Why, because they know he's a part of their machine. Cheapo fans look at a big contract and say.. well, we didn't win it all, let's get rid of him. Wow. That's really bad planning. I bet you don't have any trade in mind, no direction, just get that money back??

If we were to do that, we'd just prove those people right who says that we don't know how to build a winning franchise. Welcome to Clippers East.

Diesel your perspective is interesting.........................and I agree/disagree with it.

My issue is that if you are the highest paid player and supposidly best player on the team you should be "the man" 90%" of the time. Joe imo is not that player. If the game is on the line he needs the ball in his hands and should be pressing the defense into making a bad decision that allows him a great shot or free throws. Joe Johnson is a great shooter and very good player but he is not imo a superstar player. Joe is not a star player, he is a great 2nd player for instance if he was with the Lakers he would be very good because Kobe is the man.

Just my .02

[Diesel]

Diesel your perspective is interesting.........................and I agree/disagree with it.

My issue is that if you are the highest paid player and supposidly best player on the team you should be "the man" 90%" of the time. Joe imo is not that player. If the game is on the line he needs the ball in his hands and should be pressing the defense into making a bad decision that allows him a great shot or free throws. Joe Johnson is a great shooter and very good player but he is not imo a superstar player. Joe is not a star player, he is a great 2nd player for instance if he was with the Lakers he would be very good because Kobe is the man.

Just my .02

To this I say...What do you mean "the Man"?

Do you mean Leading scorer? - That's Joe.

Do you mean leading offensive threat? That's Joe.

Do you mean best passer? That's still Joe.

The thing that people hate about Joe... Joe doesn't speak up. Joe is not on TV talking Smack about how great he is. Joe is not looking at the refs everytime he is touched like other guys labeled "the man". And Joe's game suffers because he's not as vocal as say Wade or Lebron. So does his marketing. I promise you, if Joe was marketed like Wade or even CP3... Nobody in Atlanta would complain about the guy who has took this team to the playoffs for the last 4 years. If he was an outstanding dunker like Vince Carter, people would never bring an acquisation about him not being the man. Joe might not be the most exciting player on the team. Nor is he the most vocal.. But best believe.. He's the man.

[Joker]

To this I say...What do you mean "the Man"?

Do you mean Leading scorer? - That's Joe.

Do you mean leading offensive threat? That's Joe.

Do you mean best passer? That's still Joe.

The thing that people hate about Joe... Joe doesn't speak up. Joe is not on TV talking Smack about how great he is. Joe is not looking at the refs everytime he is touched like other guys labeled "the man". And Joe's game suffers because he's not as vocal as say Wade or Lebron. So does his marketing. I promise you, if Joe was marketed like Wade or even CP3... Nobody in Atlanta would complain about the guy who has took this team to the playoffs for the last 4 years. If he was an outstanding dunker like Vince Carter, people would never bring an acquisation about him not being the man. Joe might not be the most exciting player on the team. Nor is he the most vocal.. But best believe.. He's the man.

He isn't our best player. He isn't marketed because he's boring. He's not a #1 option. He is all around star who doesn't do anything at an elite rate. The rest aren't happening so... He's our most important and Atlanta should keep him. They should just get a better player who is a #1 or a superstar to play with him. He is as good as you can get without seeming like he is two or three players in one.

[Diesel]

He isn't our best player. He isn't marketed because he's boring. He's not a #1 option. He is all around star who doesn't do anything at an elite rate. The rest aren't happening so... He's our most important and Atlanta should keep him. They should just get a better player who is a #1 or a superstar to play with him. He is as good as you can get without seeming like he is two or three players in one.

He isn't our best player but he's our most important???

I smell the "P" word.'

Yep, you're arguing and trying to raise potential?

Next you'll be telling me that a Forward who cannot create for himself and lives on pick and pops is our best player?

Here's the image I want in your mind before you begin to try to justify your statement.

Imagine your best player on our team:

a. Double teamed.

b. Guarded by a taller player.

or

c. Guarded by the other teams best defender.

You don't have to imagine that for Joe. He lives that every freakin night.

Did you notice that we never set picks for Joe?

Did you notice that we never run plays to get Joe Open?

So you want to come down on a guy who gets the ball, faces a double team nightly, and still gets you between 19-23 ppg per season and leads the team in assists and takes them to the playoffs with very little help.

Your best player face a double team and they will not produce.

[Joker]

He isn't our best player but he's our most important???

I smell the "P" word.'

Yep, you're arguing and trying to raise potential?

Next you'll be telling me that a Forward who cannot create for himself and lives on pick and pops is our best player?

Here's the image I want in your mind before you begin to try to justify your statement.

Imagine your best player on our team:

a. Double teamed.

b. Guarded by a taller player.

or

c. Guarded by the other teams best defender.

You don't have to imagine that for Joe. He lives that every freakin night.

Did you notice that we never set picks for Joe?

Did you notice that we never run plays to get Joe Open?

So you want to come down on a guy who gets the ball, faces a double team nightly, and still gets you between 19-23 ppg per season and leads the team in assists and takes them to the playoffs with very little help.

Your best player face a double team and they will not produce.

Only lives with PnP with our current personnel which I complain about regularly. Jamal is double teamed too. So Jamal is our best player as well by your logic. We always set picks for Joe. Diesel, this is why I don't like talking with you. You always say something that's beyond stupid. We try to run plays to get Joe open but are plays are weak at times. Joe does get open jumpers and at times it is set to plays but rarely. He wasn't doubled like that till Bibby got traded. Same for Jamal. From your logic, Jamal and Joe= our best players because of doubles even though every NBA team knows we run our offense though Joe and Jamal. Great post Diesel.

Edited May 25, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[Diesel]

Only lives with PnP with our current personnel which I complain about regularly. Jamal is double teamed too. So Jamal is our best player as well by your logic. We always set picks for Joe. Diesel, this is why I don't like talking with you. You always say something that's beyond stupid. We try to run plays to get Joe open but are plays are weak at times. Joe does get open jumpers and at times it is set to plays but rarely. He wasn't doubled like that till Bibby got traded. Same for Jamal. From your logic, Jamal and Joe= our best players because of doubles even though every NBA team knows we run our offense though Joe and Jamal. Great post Diesel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8TBcjX8RCk

Waiting for that pick?

[coachx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8TBcjX8RCk

Waiting for that pick?

On the very 1st play of the very 1st video Bibby came over and set a pick for JJ who then drove to the hole.

I remember Drew calling more pick and rolls / pick and pops then did Woodson.

[High5]

We wouldn't be be making the playoffs 4 years in a row if it wasn't for JJ. We get rid of him, we're getting rid of the all the progress we have made. Sure we payed too much, but ownership knew if we didn't get him back, we were going back to square one. JJ needs to be in Atlanta if we're going to continue the progress we've made. The roster needs to be changed, I agree....but not Joe.

The problem is we're never going to reach our goal with Joe as our leader. He's just not capable of being the man in the playoffs, and it's only going to get worse as he ages. We have already seen a steep decline in his efficiency and durability since he's been in Atlanta. Most guys don't turn it around after 30. We're in a bad spot. The novelty of being a 2nd round exit has long since worn off, something drastic needs to be done or we're going to be stuck in mediocrity for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately there aren't many options out there to turn our team with Joe into a serious contender.

[thescout5]

I measure players on how they do in the post season and JJ just plain disappears. He'll have some big games but does he really make other players better when he isn't hitting his shots? Players like Lebron, Kobe or other top players if their game is off they make their team better by playing great defense or passing the ball. The Hawks usually die by the sword in the playoffs because their outside game lets them down against better teams. Joe isn't worth his contract and I'd be happy to deal him if anything to get rid of the contract.I can live with it if we have a better all around team for it. When you have just a few players as the big offensive threats good defenses know this and will take it away from you if the other players don't step up. I'd rather have an improved front court than continue to depend on guards who rely on jump shots to win in the playoffs.

Edited May 25, 2011 by thescout5

[Eddielives]

This is very simple. Joe is paid superstar money. A superstar is defined by his ability to lead his team to a championship or to be such a ticket draw that he deserves to be paid as such. Is Joe a ticket draw? Hell to the no! Is Joe leading his team to a championship? No. He cannot overcome the pressure that is put on him, by his paycheck or the defense other teams put on him, to still achieve his goal which is to still be able to score enough to make him a legitimate threat or to be so amazingly entertaining that people will pay to see him play anyway. He is not worth what he makes. He is not a leader(for you Diesel, I mean leader in the sense that he overcomes adversity to still lead his troops to victory more than just in the regular season). He is boring. He has regressed as a player the very first year of his biggest paycheck. Sorry to hurt the feelings of those of you who think your allegiance as Hawks fans is to still cheer for your most handsomely paid player despite his shortcomings. But Joe is laughing all the way to the bank while he knows he needs someone still better than he is if his team is ever going to contend for a title. Learn to live with it guys. The Atlanta spirit paid him to keep their product competitive and somewhat valuable and that is it.

[GameTime]

Joe as da man is not working. Honestly getting a scorer at the 2 is not as difficult as y'all make it.

[Diesel]

The problem is we're never going to reach our goal with Joe as our leader. He's just not capable of being the man in the playoffs, and it's only going to get worse as he ages. We have already seen a steep decline in his efficiency and durability since he's been in Atlanta. Most guys don't turn it around after 30. We're in a bad spot. The novelty of being a 2nd round exit has long since worn off, something drastic needs to be done or we're going to be stuck in mediocrity for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately there aren't many options out there to turn our team with Joe into a serious contender.

Joe fills our need. Primary scorer/2 guard.

Our troubles are in the frontcourt and at the PG position.

We have addressed PG.

Changing to the big lineup helped us move past Orlando easily.

Don't forget, nobody gave us a chance against Orlando and we beat them handily.

Hinrich hurt... but we found Teague for the series.

Next. We see a steep decline in his efficiency why?

New coach? New offensive system? Injury to his shooting elbow?

This offseason, Joe had the best Playoffs since 2007... maybe since 2004-2005 if you consider his FG%

[thecampster]

there is math to the trade Josh, Al or Joe argument that most people seem to ignore.

Assuming moving Marvin is also on the table.

The Hawks need to move 2 players and get back 3 to better facilitate salary spread on the roster. They are going to have too many vet min players next year the way they are going.

Trading Joe/Marvin - 25.54 million in salary to work with. Needs, SG - Center - backup F

Trading Josh/Marvin - 19.9 million in salary to work with. Needs, SF - Center - backup F

Trading Al/Marvin - 19.5 million in salary to work with. Needs, Center -SF - backup F

Now when you look at that. all require a backup F. We'll assume for the same of argument that is a 3 million dollar salary.

What are better odds. Gettting a Good Center + SG with 22.5 million, Getting a good Center, SF with 16.9 million, Getting a good Center -SF for 16.5 million.

Obviously, if filling out the roster with the best talent and finding the best trading partners is the goal, trading Al is a non-starter because with us at the Luxury Tax threshhold and Al having the lowest salary, we'd get the least back.

Now what's easier to find? A good SF with 6 million less to work with or a SG with 6 million more to work with.

The answer is simple and easy....For the Hawks to take the next step and truly compete, Joe Johnson is the one that must go.

[Diesel]

This is very simple. Joe is paid superstar money. A superstar is defined by his ability to lead his team to a championship or to be such a ticket draw that he deserves to be paid as such. Is Joe a ticket draw? Hell to the no! Is Joe leading his team to a championship? No. He cannot overcome the pressure that is put on him, by his paycheck or the defense other teams put on him, to still achieve his goal which is to still be able to score enough to make him a legitimate threat or to be so amazingly entertaining that people will pay to see him play anyway. He is not worth what he makes. He is not a leader(for you Diesel, I mean leader in the sense that he overcomes adversity to still lead his troops to victory more than just in the regular season). He is boring. He has regressed as a player the very first year of his biggest paycheck. Sorry to hurt the feelings of those of you who think your allegiance as Hawks fans is to still cheer for your most handsomely paid player despite his shortcomings. But Joe is laughing all the way to the bank while he knows he needs someone still better than he is if his team is ever going to contend for a title. Learn to live with it guys. The Atlanta spirit paid him to keep their product competitive and somewhat valuable and that is it.

So every superstar paid superstar money out to lead his team to a championship???

You ever notice that it took Jordan 6 years to get to the championship? So for 6 years, MJ was what?? How about Lebron? What about KG? Ray Allen? Charile Barkley? Chris Webber??

Do you even understand how many guys have never been in the finals? Nique never made it to the championship finals with us. I guess he is no better than Marvin.

Let's put them all out there..

Without Joe, we would have never made 1 playoffs. But we'd have a lot of good draft parties.

there is math to the trade Josh, Al or Joe argument that most people seem to ignore.

Assuming moving Marvin is also on the table.

The Hawks need to move 2 players and get back 3 to better facilitate salary spread on the roster. They are going to have too many vet min players next year the way they are going.

Trading Joe/Marvin - 25.54 million in salary to work with. Needs, SG - Center - backup F

Trading Josh/Marvin - 19.9 million in salary to work with. Needs, SF - Center - backup F

Trading Al/Marvin - 19.5 million in salary to work with. Needs, Center -SF - backup F

Now when you look at that. all require a backup F. We'll assume for the same of argument that is a 3 million dollar salary.

What are better odds. Gettting a Good Center + SG with 22.5 million, Getting a good Center, SF with 16.9 million, Getting a good Center -SF for 16.5 million.

Obviously, if filling out the roster with the best talent and finding the best trading partners is the goal, trading Al is a non-starter because with us at the Luxury Tax threshhold and Al having the lowest salary, we'd get the least back.

Now what's easier to find? A good SF with 6 million less to work with or a SG with 6 million more to work with.

The answer is simple and easy....For the Hawks to take the next step and truly compete, Joe Johnson is the one that must go.

Your next step must be three more years in the lottery?

This is not playstation where you can replace Joe with Bobby Jackson and still play a strong game.

First off, the SGs we will pick up will be trash. Nobody parts with a good SG. Hell, even Milwaukee is talking about keeping Michael Redd.

Secondly, have you checked our FA record?

Name one free agent who came here Either Zaza or Joe?. No need to talk about 22.5 Million.

I'm not for keeping Joe at all cost, but find a trade that makes sense??

[TRUEINTELLECTPLAYA]

there is math to the trade Josh, Al or Joe argument that most people seem to ignore.

Assuming moving Marvin is also on the table.

The Hawks need to move 2 players and get back 3 to better facilitate salary spread on the roster. They are going to have too many vet min players next year the way they are going.

Trading Joe/Marvin - 25.54 million in salary to work with. Needs, SG - Center - backup F

Trading Josh/Marvin - 19.9 million in salary to work with. Needs, SF - Center - backup F

Trading Al/Marvin - 19.5 million in salary to work with. Needs, Center -SF - backup F

Now when you look at that. all require a backup F. We'll assume for the same of argument that is a 3 million dollar salary.

What are better odds. Gettting a Good Center + SG with 22.5 million, Getting a good Center, SF with 16.9 million, Getting a good Center -SF for 16.5 million.

Obviously, if filling out the roster with the best talent and finding the best trading partners is the goal, trading Al is a non-starter because with us at the Luxury Tax threshhold and Al having the lowest salary, we'd get the least back.

Now what's easier to find? A good SF with 6 million less to work with or a SG with 6 million more to work with.

The answer is simple and easy....For the Hawks to take the next step and truly compete, Joe Johnson is the one that must go.

Or move 1 to get back 2. Josh Smith to the Cavs for #4 and Varaejo. Then trade the 4th pick, 2011-12 2nd, and 2012-13 1st to Twolves for #2 and take Derrick Williams.

You get a starting SF Derrick Williams and Varaejo.

[thecampster]

Or move 1 to get back 2. Josh Smith to the Cavs for #4 and Varaejo. Then trade the 4th pick, 2011-12 2nd, and 2012-13 1st to Twolves for #2 and take Derrick Williams.

You get a starting SF Derrick Williams and Varaejo.

I can't see the Cavs doing that deal but okay, awesome if they do.

[TRUEINTELLECTPLAYA]

I can't see the Cavs doing that deal but okay, awesome if they do.

What part do you not see? Varaejo or the pick?

[thecampster]

What you guys are failing to see is even if Joe's Salary went "poof" in the night, we would still not be able to sign free agents. Joe's money is that much. Without Joe's Salary, we still have 46 million committed to just 6 players. Add Joe in and you have 64 million in Salary, are over the cap and still need to sign 5 players. You can resign your own players and not count against the cap but it still counts against the luxury tax once you reach the threshold. Joe's Salary is the only one high enough to get back 2 quality players in return. Here are a list of hypothetical players that Joe and Marvin's salary together ='s

Lakers - Bynum, Artest, Steve Blake

Clippers - Kaman, Mo Williams and SNT Deandre Jordan

NO - Okafur, West, Jarrett Jack

Cleveland - Jamison, Varejao, and pick a scrub

New Jersey - Brook Lopez and other team's salary dump in a 3 way.

There are far mor opportunities with JJ than with the other 2 because of the total amount of salary involved. There are about 6 teams far under the cap that will take him off our hands in a salary dump in exchange for draft picks and or other team's getting involved to dump their salary to us.

[TRUEINTELLECTPLAYA]

What you guys are failing to see is even if Joe's Salary went "poof" in the night, we would still not be able to sign free agents. Joe's money is that much. Without Joe's Salary, we still have 46 million committed to just 6 players. Add Joe in and you have 64 million in Salary, are over the cap and still need to sign 5 players. You can resign your own players and not count against the cap but it still counts against the luxury tax once you reach the threshold. Joe's Salary is the only one high enough to get back 2 quality players in return. Here are a list of hypothetical players that Joe and Marvin's salary together ='s

Lakers - Bynum, Artest, Steve Blake

Clippers - Kaman, Mo Williams and SNT Deandre Jordan

NO - Okafur, West, Jarrett Jack

Cleveland - Jamison, Varejao, and pick a scrub

New Jersey - Brook Lopez and other team's salary dump in a 3 way.

There are far mor opportunities with JJ than with the other 2 because of the total amount of salary involved. There are about 6 teams far under the cap that will take him off our hands in a salary dump in exchange for draft picks and or other team's getting involved to dump their salary to us.

46 million in salary would mean you would have $12 million to play with before hitting salary cap and having to go to MLE and minimum salary players. That $12 million could be used to sign Nene or Marc Gasol or you could get 2 or more players from a pretty good list for $12 million. You could have 8 players after reaching $58 million, then use MLE to split between 2 players. That equals 10 players before you start filling the team out with draft picks and minimum guys. That would be much better than what we currently have.

[thecampster]

46 million in salary would mean you would have $12 million to play with before hitting salary cap and having to go to MLE and minimum salary players. That $12 million could be used to sign Nene or Marc Gasol or you could get 2 or more players from a pretty good list for $12 million. You could have 8 players after reaching $58 million, then use MLE to split between 2 players. That equals 10 players before you start filling the team out with draft picks and minimum guys. That would be much better than what we currently have.

Which once again is why the only player that makes sense to deal is Joe. The other players don't earn enough to create any wiggle room.