Is Udonnis Haslem better than Horf?

[Diesel]

In the Chicago Series, Haslem is playing a game that is far superior to what we got from Horf.

It's not about stats, but it's just the toughness on display.

What do you think?

[99PROBL3MS]

Haslem plays with the heart of a lion. He isn't as gifted as Horf but plays with 1000x the heart. He is a feisty competitor. If we could put Haslem's heart in Horf's chest, we would have an MVP candidate. Haslem is a better rebounder, shotblocker, and team defender. It is because if his nonstop effort.

[Joker]

This is a dumbass thread.

[MaceCase]

Insert is (Ronny Turiaf, Chuck Hayes, Reggie Evans, Darell Arthur, Kris Humphries, etc, etc ) better than Horf?

It's funny Dies but whenever Joe falls short you excuse it away to the defensive attention he gets but you are now quick to elevate 8th option hustle guys over Horf?

[Jody23]

I think Udonis is doing a terrific job, but if you put me on the floor with LeBron, DWade and Bosh, I'd look good too. The answer to Diesel's question imho is no.

[hawkman]

I think Udonis is doing a terrific job, but if you put me on the floor with LeBron, DWade and Bosh, I'd look good too. The answer to Diesel's question imho is no.

Agreed. Haslem does not have Horf's size or potential. But Haslem's motor is undeniable. Horf has his moments too, but too many fans have a 'what have you done for me lately' view of Horf and most of the players on the hawks roster. I still believe he was/is hurt and just not telling anybody about it. But his timid performance during the Playoffs gives rise to questions like this. I'm sure most of us felt we had the most talented big man in the Bulls series and were left either frustrated, confused, or both as the series wore on with the Hawks frontline geting battered and consistently out-hustled. His Playoff play left a sour taste in my mouth, but I know Horf is better than what he showed out there and is certainly better than Haslem.

[AHawks89]

Is he playing better than Horford in the playoffs? Yes.

Is he better than Al Horford? Hell no.

Al Horford is one of the best centers in the league. We know Al can play physical at times when he wants to, and we all know he can hit his jump shot. The problem is that Horford was either to soft (lazy) to go inside the paint or either injured. I think he may have been injured because he consistently kept taking bad jump shots. I hardly saw him drive in the paint the whole series, nor make his jumpers. We all know what Al Horford is capable of, and what he has done for this team. So answer to the question is no.

[Supporter]

Gimme a break, Al Horford is a more skilled and more talented Udonis Haslem. Both take good shots, both hustle for rebounds. I'm not going to lie, Horf struggled mightly in the post season but that doesn't change the fact that he was our best spot up shooter and our best rebounder this past season. The real question is, if Josh had Haslem's heart and attitude would he be an all star. The answer to that is most definetaly a YES.

[capstone21]

No and it is not even close.

I do agree the Haslem plays with a lot of heart. More players should learn from his efforts and hustle

[Marvin24Williams]

Thanks for the laugh Diesel, this thread is gold

Edited May 24, 2011 by WhassupHawks

[Diesel]

Insert is (Ronny Turiaf, Chuck Hayes, Reggie Evans, Darell Arthur, Kris Humphries, etc, etc ) better than Horf?

It's funny Dies but whenever Joe falls short you excuse it away to the defensive attention he gets but you are now quick to elevate 8th option hustle guys over Horf?

Horf was the guy that was isolated with the ball on our team. They gave him shots and he missed and stop taking them. Boozer and Taj had their way with Horf on the other end. They pulled Horf's punk card and never really gave him much defensive attention.

Joe is doubled every time he has the ball. There's a big difference. If Horf makes a shot, maybe they don't double Joe. But Horf is out on the island with an open lane after the pick and pop and he continues to throw up bricks. Or to pass to somebody who is doubled.

I said this is not about stats, but style of play. I'm frustrated that the same Bulls team we played are getting shown up by Udonis Haslem and Soft *ss Chris Bosh. And those Haslem hustle plays are making a huge impact.

Am i wrong for wanting some impact from my 3rd team all NBA?

I think Udonis is doing a terrific job, but if you put me on the floor with LeBron, DWade and Bosh, I'd look good too. The answer to Diesel's question imho is no.

If you're on the floor with Lebron and Wade, you still have to fight for rebounds. You still have to defense Boozer, Noah, and Gibson. You still have to set picks and do the little things. Chicago is playing Miami the same way they played us. They doubled Joe and Jamal. They are doubling Lebron and Wade. And that part is working.. BUT... Miami is finding sources of help in the form of Chris Bosh and Udonis Haslem. Chicago is not controlling the paint.

Agreed. Haslem does not have Horf's size or potential. But Haslem's motor is undeniable. Horf has his moments too, but too many fans have a 'what have you done for me lately' view of Horf and most of the players on the hawks roster. I still believe he was/is hurt and just not telling anybody about it. But his timid performance during the Playoffs gives rise to questions like this. I'm sure most of us felt we had the most talented big man in the Bulls series and were left either frustrated, confused, or both as the series wore on with the Hawks frontline geting battered and consistently out-hustled. His Playoff play left a sour taste in my mouth, but I know Horf is better than what he showed out there and is certainly better than Haslem.

This is where I am. I just knew he owned Noah. However, Horf cowered. He cowered in the corner and we watched Noah motor around him and scoop up most rebounds. Then Boozer looked like Amare. Then Taj Gibson looked like the second coming of shawn Kemp. I realize that Horf is better on paper. However, there are somethings that paper can't account for. Like Heart. I give game 2 to Udonis Haslem more than any other heat. He did all the litle things. Picks, rebounds, controlled the paint. He did to Chicago's bigs what we expected Horf to do. It's mighty sad but I applaused when Horf went out and Zaza came in. At least Zaza played like he gave a damn. I didn't get that from Horf. I got scared child from Horf.

[KB21]

Horf was the guy that was isolated with the ball on our team. They gave him shots and he missed and stop taking them. Boozer and Taj had their way with Horf on the other end. They pulled Horf's punk card and never really gave him much defensive attention.

Joe is doubled every time he has the ball. There's a big difference. If Horf makes a shot, maybe they don't double Joe. But Horf is out on the island with an open lane after the pick and pop and he continues to throw up bricks. Or to pass to somebody who is doubled.

I said this is not about stats, but style of play. I'm frustrated that the same Bulls team we played are getting shown up by Udonis Haslem and Soft *ss Chris Bosh. And those Haslem hustle plays are making a huge impact.

Am i wrong for wanting some impact from my 3rd team all NBA?

If you're on the floor with Lebron and Wade, you still have to fight for rebounds. You still have to defense Boozer, Noah, and Gibson. You still have to set picks and do the little things. Chicago is playing Miami the same way they played us. They doubled Joe and Jamal. They are doubling Lebron and Wade. And that part is working.. BUT... Miami is finding sources of help in the form of Chris Bosh and Udonis Haslem. Chicago is not controlling the paint.

This is where I am. I just knew he owned Noah. However, Horf cowered. He cowered in the corner and we watched Noah motor around him and scoop up most rebounds. Then Boozer looked like Amare. Then Taj Gibson looked like the second coming of shawn Kemp. I realize that Horf is better on paper. However, there are somethings that paper can't account for. Like Heart. I give game 2 to Udonis Haslem more than any other heat. He did all the litle things. Picks, rebounds, controlled the paint. He did to Chicago's bigs what we expected Horf to do. It's mighty sad but I applaused when Horf went out and Zaza came in. At least Zaza played like he gave a damn. I didn't get that from Horf. I got scared child from Horf.

Really? Horford was the player that was isolated on offense for the Hawks. He was isolated on 3.26% of all the Hawks isolation plays against the Bulls. Compare that to Joe Johnson, who was isolated on 46.98% of all the Hawks isolation plays against the Bulls or Jamal Crawford's 20.47% or Josh's 10.7%. Hell, Jeff Teague and Marvin Williams were isolated more than Al Horford. Horford was used a lot more in pick and roll situations and in spot up situations at 17.92% and 16.00% respectively in the playoffs. In the regular season, Al Horford was isolated only 9.47% of the time. In both instances, Al's point production was good to very good when he was isolated.

The reason Bosh and Haslem are doing well against the Bulls is because Wade and James are doing a much better job against the Bulls exagerrated strong side defense than the Hawks did. The Hawks let the Bulls force them into isolation sets, particularly with Joe Johnson touching the basketball.

[buckeye242424]

In the Chicago Series, Haslem is playing a game that is far superior to what we got from Horf.

It's not about stats, but it's just the toughness on display.

What do you think?

I think Haslem is having a better series vs. the Bulls than Horf... I'll give you that. But let's remember something, Haslem is fresh. He hasn't played all year. Now he's getting a chance in the ECF with fresh legs. Of course he's going to bring more energy than guys that have 90+ games under their belt this year.

But to answer the questing of the thread... Not a chance! Horf is much more talented, and he's still getting better.

[NineOhTheRino]

Why must we overrate the talent on this team? He's a stiff! A stand-still shooter with no post-game that plays with the toughness of a 10 yo girl. What has he done that matters? ASGs and 3rd-team NBA? I judge players on what they do when faced with real competition. I don't care about this guy going off vs the Toronto Raptors during the regular season.

rant over

Edited May 24, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[HawksFan87]

Sorry but I'm not buying him being injured as the reason he has sucked the last few months playing basketball, but to answer ur question? NO Haslem is not better he does have more heart than Al ever will though.

[AHF]

Why must we overrate the talent on this team? He's a stiff! A stand-still shooter with no post-game that plays with the toughness of a 10 yo girl. What has he done that matters? ASGs and 3rd-team NBA? I judge players on what they do when faced with real competition. I don't care about this guy going off vs the Toronto Raptors during the regular season.

rant over

Given what the rest of the league says about Horford, it is hard to say you aren't underrating him.

When faced with real competition in 2009-10 i.e., in the playoffs, Al put up 15 and 9 on 52% shooting. He had a 20 PER and the highest win shares on the team in the playoffs (also in the regular season).

Obviously, he didn't do it this year, although he still led the team in rebounding (9.6 rpg) and led the frontcourt in fg% (assuming you ignore Jason Collins who shoots a good % by cherry picking under 2 ppg).

Blowing off the ASGs and All-NBA selection to call him a stiff is the extreme polar opposite of overrating the talent on this team - it is criminally underrating our talent out of frustration.

Edited May 24, 2011 by AHF

[Diesel]

Sorry but I'm not buying him being injured as the reason he has sucked the last few months playing basketball, but to answer ur question? NO Haslem is not better he does have more heart than Al ever will though.

Well, here's is where we need our resident math and science guy.

When does Heart overcome talent?

What is the relation between Heart, Talent, Potential and Better player?

We say that Horf is better than Haslem.. (I actually believe this too). However, if on the proving ground, Haslem outworks and out hearts Horf... what difference does more talent and more potential make.

You all know I have a problem with the p word "Potential". Marvin has potential. More potential than most Sfs... BUT... Hawks fans line up and wish every year that Marvin would realize his potential but HEART gets in the way. If you have Potential and Talent but NO HEART, you're a lost cause. So what is the right relationship. Is there a math equation we could use to explain it. A justification? A rubric we can build? Is there any way we can adjudicate this? A diagnosis that we can all agree on? IS there a logical conclusion that can be drawn from the facts? A relevant question that we can answer?

What shall we say then?

[AHF]

However, if on the proving ground, Haslem outworks and out hearts Horf... what difference does more talent and more potential make.

The last two years:

Horford regular 14.8 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1 bpg, .8 spg .591 ts%

Horford playoff 13 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.5 bpg, .6 spg, .513 ts%

Haslem regular 8.95 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.65 apg, .25 bpg, .45 spg, .543 ts%

Haslem playoff 5.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.8 apg, .2 bpg, .3 spg, .448 ts%

Horford has been clearly and demonstrably the more productive player the last two seasons both in the regular season and the playoffs.

[Guest]

Marvin has been a dud but unfortunately he is not the only one we use the "P" word on.....After 7 years in the league we are still talking about Josh playing to his potential and finally getting it. True we have seen more from Josh than Marvin but it's still the same thing...talking about his ceiling and potential and playing within himself.

[Diesel]

The last two years:

Horford regular 14.8 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1 bpg, .8 spg .591 ts%

Horford playoff 13 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.5 bpg, .6 spg, .513 ts%

Haslem regular 8.95 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.65 apg, .25 bpg, .45 spg, .543 ts%

Haslem playoff 5.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.8 apg, .2 bpg, .3 spg, .448 ts%

Horford has been clearly and demonstrably the more productive player the last two seasons both in the regular season and the playoffs.

If statistics were a pissing contest, then Horf is pissing Haslem away.

However,

This playoffs. Against our like competition. Haslem... stepping up and controlling the paint vs. Horf... cowering.

Marvin has been a dud but unfortunately he is not the only one we use the "P" word on.....After 7 years in the league we are still talking about Josh playing to his potential and finally getting it. True we have seen more from Josh than Marvin but it's still the same thing...talking about his ceiling and potential and playing within himself.

The difference is that Josh shows some progress. Marvin just regresses.