Jamal Crawford (Will the Hawks really lose him and get nothing in return?)

[MaceCase]

Hard to see the CBA affecting him not being with the team either.

If it stays the similar to what it is now then he doesn't fit underneath the lux tax.

If an amnesty clause is created then it will be with the intention of teams lowering their salary to fit underneath a new lower cap and not allow them to cut a guy and then turn around and spend the same amount of money all over again.

If something similar to what the NFL occurs where there is an uncapped season then there are future worries about a longterm deal and the question of whether or not the ASG is even comfortable with spending around 75+ million in salary on the roster regardless of tax implications.

Outside of him or the CBA depressing his salary to around 2-3mil a year I really just don't see it.

[Diesel]

Okay well help me understand it better then. How does Jamal leaving, along with his salary, mean he is leaving and the Hawks don't have that money not being spent anymore to show for it? It sounds like you are saying that the cap is fluid and changes based on signing Jamal or not. I thought that a cap is set in stone barring certain free agent bird rights type deals where a team can sign a player over the cap and not be hit with the tax.

Capspace is not fluid (like that) but him leaving doesn't mean we can afford anybody?

It would be better to go over the cap and sign him and use him in a trade after 12-15 if you want to get a warm body.

However, if you just want to be a good accountant, sure, we traded in 18 ppg for 10 million dollars worth of savings for the owners. I guess that's good? This is what many of you do... You put on your accountant hat and act like anything we do to save money is going to help us on the court. Winning teams know that what's on the court is the most important thing. If you win, you will make the money up. It's the welfare mentality corollary . Many people want to be the best accountant and they don't care about what happens on the court.

That's why people here proposing getting rid of Joe for capspace and are oblivious to exactly how hard it is to get any free agent to come here. Not to mention an allstar level free agent. I swear that all you guys do is play playstation and Xbox and believe that trades and signings can happen in the nba because it happens there. Did you not learn anything from Shaq? He wanted 8 Million dollars to play here. When no other team would give him 8 million 2 years ago.

[PaceRam]

Diesel - If I am understanding your thoughts correctly then I totally agree with you! When I say the Hawks probably won't get anything/anyone in return (and, I am hoping but I am not very optmistic that the Hawks will re-sign Crawford!) it is because when teams do a trade I think they have some kind of control on who they get but when they rely on free agency then they have to compete against a lot of other interested teams who unfortunately for the Hawks usually seem to be more attractive (for whatever reason/Salary, Market, Lifestyle, Ownership, Coaching, etc) than the Hawks. That is why I really wish the Hawks would have either signed Crawford to an extension or traded him when they had the chance. When I read that Crawford's salary is going to help them keep Horford that is great news but I honestly think the Hawks need to add quality players to their team not lose them. Personally, I think if the Hawks don't re-sign Crawford or trade or sign a player of compararable ability/talent then they have taken a step backwards going into next season (especially since they don't even have a 1st round pick this year). Hopefully, I am totally wrong and the Hawks will either re-sign Crawford and/or sign some quality free agents (which seems difficult to me since they seem to be very financially limited) and/or hit the jackpot with the 2nd round draft pick!)..

[TRUEINTELLECTPLAYA]

he would be considered leaving for nothing because he has talent and production behind that talent that would be losing him for nothing ?

We can have them both what part of this dont you seem to understand ?

Al is not replacing jamal we are losing a rotation player for nothing

Als contract has nothing to do with Jamal we could still resign jamal but if jamals leaves we get nothing because we have no capspace so jamals departure doesnt open up anything as far as signing players we just lose an asset for nothing .

How about we should have kept Jordan and or the 18th pick and that would have more than covered for Jamal leaving and would have been cheaper

Edited June 19, 2011 by TRUEINTELLECTPLAYA

[PaceRam]

As much as I like Hinrich (and, I am glad he is a Hawk) I do think they paid a lot (maybe, too much) to get him. And, I realize the Hawks management knows a lot more than I do but as one of those "arm-chair QB's" I do wonder about a lot of the moves the Hawks make! And, I am still in shock that the Hawks sold one of their 2nd round picks (If I remember correctly, it was a pretty high 2nd round pick) last year when I thought (and, I am probably wrong/Again!) that there were some pretty good players available when the Hawks sold that pick and when you have a team like the Hawks that need depth (at least, in my mind they do!) it sure seemed like a very strange move to me!

[lunar]

As much as I like Hinrich (and, I am glad he is a Hawk) I do think they paid a lot (maybe, too much) to get him. And, I realize the Hawks management knows a lot more than I do but as one of those "arm-chair QB's" I do wonder about a lot of the moves the Hawks make! And, I am still in shock that the Hawks sold one of their 2nd round picks (If I remember correctly, it was a pretty high 2nd round pick) last year when I thought (and, I am probably wrong/Again!) that there were some pretty good players available when the Hawks sold that pick and when you have a team like the Hawks that need depth (at least, in my mind they do!) it sure seemed like a very strange move to me!

What made the Hinrich deal bad was that we included both "he who's name shall not be mentioned" and the 1st rounder. of the two i wish we would've kept jordan since it would guarantee that Jamal Crawford wouldn't be coming back.

selling the pick was pretty much the end result of ASG bleeding cash. OKC gave us a godfather offer and the ASG jumped at it.

*optimist sidenote* you could say that the hawks got the second round pick back as magnum rolle was the 51st pick in the 2010 draft. :kickcan:

[Eddielives]

Capspace is not fluid (like that) but him leaving doesn't mean we can afford anybody?

It would be better to go over the cap and sign him and use him in a trade after 12-15 if you want to get a warm body.

However, if you just want to be a good accountant, sure, we traded in 18 ppg for 10 million dollars worth of savings for the owners. I guess that's good? This is what many of you do... You put on your accountant hat and act like anything we do to save money is going to help us on the court. Winning teams know that what's on the court is the most important thing. If you win, you will make the money up. It's the welfare mentality corollary . Many people want to be the best accountant and they don't care about what happens on the court.

That's why people here proposing getting rid of Joe for capspace and are oblivious to exactly how hard it is to get any free agent to come here. Not to mention an allstar level free agent. I swear that all you guys do is play playstation and Xbox and believe that trades and signings can happen in the nba because it happens there. Did you not learn anything from Shaq? He wanted 8 Million dollars to play here. When no other team would give him 8 million 2 years ago.

You really are a pessimistic fan if you don't believe we will ever get anyone better to come here than Joe Johnson. If that is the pinnacle of your hope for the Hawks as far as ever signing a free agent goes, then please turn in your fan card. I have higher hopes for this team. You may think they are unrealistic expectations but I believe you keep trying until you get the winning formula, not settle for the best you can get in Joe Johnson and keep denying the reality that he is more or less, on a downward slide as a nba player and basically call any attempt at hope for a better future pipe dreams, video game fantasy or simply attempts to save money like some accountant. The reason Shaq expected 8 mil out of ATlanta is because he knew that he had no chance of winning another ring here so why not at least see if we would bite on another unrealistic contract like we gave Joe. This is madness. The ASG will spend money. I give them that but they spent to make themselves look better to be sold, not to invest wisely with a legit chance at a championship.

[Diesel]

Diesel - If I am understanding your thoughts correctly then I totally agree with you! When I say the Hawks probably won't get anything/anyone in return (and, I am hoping but I am not very optmistic that the Hawks will re-sign Crawford!) it is because when teams do a trade I think they have some kind of control on who they get but when they rely on free agency then they have to compete against a lot of other interested teams who unfortunately for the Hawks usually seem to be more attractive (for whatever reason/Salary, Market, Lifestyle, Ownership, Coaching, etc) than the Hawks. That is why I really wish the Hawks would have either signed Crawford to an extension or traded him when they had the chance. When I read that Crawford's salary is going to help them keep Horford that is great news but I honestly think the Hawks need to add quality players to their team not lose them. Personally, I think if the Hawks don't re-sign Crawford or trade or sign a player of compararable ability/talent then they have taken a step backwards going into next season (especially since they don't even have a 1st round pick this year). Hopefully, I am totally wrong and the Hawks will either re-sign Crawford and/or sign some quality free agents (which seems difficult to me since they seem to be very financially limited) and/or hit the jackpot with the 2nd round draft pick!)..

One thing that changed for me was the play of Teague.

What you said is pretty much how I feel, we can't be bad about making the right on court moves. We should get somebody or somethng for Craw. But finding out that Teague could be so efficient... really helps me to see how we can overcome the loss of Crawford. I think we can be successful with a Hinrich Teague combo at PG going into the season. However, the greed in me wants something back for Crawford. It would be great if we could SNT him for Reggie Evans.

How about we should have kept Jordan and or the 18th pick and that would have more than covered for Jamal leaving and would have been cheaper

What incentive was there for Washington to do the deal?

Bibby's contract was less attractive than Hinrich's contract. Hinrich could have fetched them a lot this offseason because he was ending. Bibby took a buyout and Washington was happy to give hm one.

The pick is a late pick... doesn't mean much in this draft. And Crawford2 was an unknown... Hadn't played enough with us to be anything.. I like how Hinrich played without having camp. If he comes back, I think we are going to be more formidable.

[PaceRam]

If the Hawks could do a SNT for Reggie Evans I would be thrilled! I have been wanting the Hawks to get Evans for years! Evans doesn't score much but he is tough and is a rebounding machine! I think Evans wouild be a great addition to the Hawks!

[Crank]

How about we should have kept Jordan and or the 18th pick and that would have more than covered for Jamal leaving and would have been cheaper

Id say you continue to ignore that fact that unlike you and your wishful thinking there are guys with there jobs on the line and they choose not to entertain such foolishness

Edited June 19, 2011 by Crank

[tbhawksfan]

It's best to either keep him or S&T him. A S&T will likely be for less talent, but could help. To let him go for nothing, à la Chil is a poison pill.

[capstone21]

I would like to sign and trade him and I bet there are teams out there willing to deal. I would hate to lose him for nothing

[GameTime]

I don't see us signing and trading him.

[MaceCase]

If the whole issue of us not being able to resign him is because the team can't afford him then I don't see how people can expect anything worthwhile in return outside of a TPE, cheap lower tier prospect/vet or a conditional pick somewhere around 2018. It's the same issue the team ran into with Chills, they just couldn't take any salary back in his SnT.

Edited June 20, 2011 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You really are a pessimistic fan if you don't believe we will ever get anyone better to come here than Joe Johnson. If that is the pinnacle of your hope for the Hawks as far as ever signing a free agent goes, then please turn in your fan card. I have higher hopes for this team. You may think they are unrealistic expectations but I believe you keep trying until you get the winning formula, not settle for the best you can get in Joe Johnson and keep denying the reality that he is more or less, on a downward slide as a nba player and basically call any attempt at hope for a better future pipe dreams, video game fantasy or simply attempts to save money like some accountant. The reason Shaq expected 8 mil out of ATlanta is because he knew that he had no chance of winning another ring here so why not at least see if we would bite on another unrealistic contract like we gave Joe. This is madness. The ASG will spend money. I give them that but they spent to make themselves look better to be sold, not to invest wisely with a legit chance at a championship.

It has nothing to do with him being a pessimist. He's just being REAL.

Even Joe Johnson doesn't come to ATL, had the Hawks not found a loophole in the system, and frontloaded JJ's contract in that 1st year, so that he would get all of his salary increases in year 1 of that deal. JJ was paid 20 million in his first year in ATL ( Base salary of 12 million + the contract escalation bonuses of 8 million ). He went from being paid 2.36 million dollars to 20 million. Even if he had decided to go back to Phoenix for the same contract, Phoenix couldn't pay him that extra 8 million that Atlanta could.

That's probably one of the top 3 reasons why he chose Atlanta in 2005. And the money again was the reason why he stayed in Atlanta in 2010.

Don't be fooled by anything else.

The facts are that only 2 other major free agents have come to ATL in the past 30 years, other than Joe Johnson.

- Nique was traded for

- Mookie was traded for

- Steve Smith was traded for

- Glenn Robinson was traded for

- Shareef Abdur Rahim was traded for

- Joe basically forced a trade to Atlanta by asking them not to match ATL's offer sheet

- Bibby was traded for

- Jamal was traded for

- Hinrich was traded for

Only Dikembe Mutumbo in his prime and an aging Moses Malone willingly came to Atlanta. And our best draft picks during that time were Jason Terry, Josh Smith, and Al Horford.

And even with those 3 signings for free agents, we had ample cap space to afford them. This year, that's not the case.

That's your history of the franchise for the past 30 years.

And with the statement about Shaq, you turn around and answer your own question. Shaq not only wanted more money to come to ATL, he didn't respect ATL's team or their organization at all. Then again, the ASG never aggressively went after Shaq anyway. The fact is that even when we did have the money to afford somebody, people turned us down left and right. When we were shopping for a starting caliber PG in 2006 to replace Lue, we couldn't get ANYBODY here. Cassell turned us down. We had to settle for Speedy Claxton . . and we all know how that turned out.

It's simply the reality of the situation here in Atlanta. For some reason, despite the nightlife that the city is famous for, free agents just aren't beating down the door to come to Atlanta. And with our financial situation this year, it's more important than ever for Sund and the ASG to get the maximum out of the low level guys they bring in. Maybe one of those guys will develop into a quality rotation player that can help us.

So unless we trade somebody, we're not getting anybody.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

How about we should have kept Jordan and or the 18th pick and that would have more than covered for Jamal leaving and would have been cheaper

LOL . . you think?

Yeah, we'd still have a dead man walking on the team in Bibby. But by the start of next season, hopefully Drew would've sent Bibby to the bench and play the role of backup PG/designated 3 point shooter, and finally give Teague a shot at starting.

Most important though, this would be our lineup going into the summer

PG - Teague

G - Johnson

F - Marvin

PF - Smith

C - Horford

C - Zaza

G - Jordan

G - Bibby

PF - Kenneth Faried ( 1st round pick ) . . rebounding machine who can block shots . . an upgrade over Josh Powell

So we'd have a potential scorer off the bench in Jordan, who could help replace what Jamal gave us, and a chance to draft a PF like Faried who can hit the boards from the 4 spot, despite being undersized.

Now you're looking at filling 4 spots at veteran minimum salary or 50% below MLE prices, to complete the roster.

- add a Nazr Mohammed? . . I'd go for that . . might have to give him more than the vet minimum though.

- bring Damien Wilkins back? . . . against it, but we could do worse

- add a 3rd PG in Earl Watson? . . . he can at least play a little defense

- bring back Jason Collins? . . . if just to play against Dwight, I'm not against that either.

Bench

6th - Jordan

7th - Zaza

8th - Nazr

9th - Bibby/Watson ( whomever is better )

10th - Faried

Collins, Wilkins, Bibby/Watson

Minutes breakdown

PG - Teague ( 34 ) - Bibby/Watson ( 14 )

G - Johnson ( 26 ) - Jordan ( 22 )

F - Marvin ( 26 ) - Johnson ( 10 ) - Smith ( 12 )

PF - Smith ( 24 ) - Horford ( 18 ) - Faried ( 6 )

C - Horford ( 18 ) - Zaza ( 15 ) - Nazr ( 15 )

It's not a championship squad, but hey, it's not like we're looking any better than this going into the summer. And it's the reality of our situation going into the offseason, barring a major trade. We just don't have the free agent money to do anything significant.

If a young guy like Jordan isn't quite ready, just put Wilkins in the lineup and halve Jordan's minutes. Or increase Joe's minutes at the 2, which would cause an increase of Marvin's minutes at the 3.

Either way, at least you'd have 3 young guys in the lineup that could possibly help you in the long run, along with the "core" of the team.

[TRUEINTELLECTPLAYA]

LOL . . you think?

Yeah, we'd still have a dead man walking on the team in Bibby. But by the start of next season, hopefully Drew would've sent Bibby to the bench and play the role of backup PG/designated 3 point shooter, and finally give Teague a shot at starting.

Most important though, this would be our lineup going into the summer

PG - Teague

G - Johnson

F - Marvin

PF - Smith

C - Horford

C - Zaza

G - Jordan

G - Bibby

PF - Kenneth Faried ( 1st round pick ) . . rebounding machine who can block shots . . an upgrade over Josh Powell

So we'd have a potential scorer off the bench in Jordan, who could help replace what Jamal gave us, and a chance to draft a PF like Faried who can hit the boards from the 4 spot, despite being undersized.

Now you're looking at filling 4 spots at veteran minimum salary or 50% below MLE prices, to complete the roster.

- add a Nazr Mohammed? . . I'd go for that . . might have to give him more than the vet minimum though.

- bring Damien Wilkins back? . . . against it, but we could do worse

- add a 3rd PG in Earl Watson? . . . he can at least play a little defense

- bring back Jason Collins? . . . if just to play against Dwight, I'm not against that either.

Bench

6th - Jordan

7th - Zaza

8th - Nazr

9th - Bibby/Watson ( whomever is better )

10th - Faried

Collins, Wilkins, Bibby/Watson

Minutes breakdown

PG - Teague ( 34 ) - Bibby/Watson ( 14 )

G - Johnson ( 26 ) - Jordan ( 22 )

F - Marvin ( 26 ) - Johnson ( 10 ) - Smith ( 12 )

PF - Smith ( 24 ) - Horford ( 18 ) - Faried ( 6 )

C - Horford ( 18 ) - Zaza ( 15 ) - Nazr ( 15 )

It's not a championship squad, but hey, it's not like we're looking any better than this going into the summer. And it's the reality of our situation going into the offseason, barring a major trade. We just don't have the free agent money to do anything significant.

If a young guy like Jordan isn't quite ready, just put Wilkins in the lineup and halve Jordan's minutes. Or increase Joe's minutes at the 2, which would cause an increase of Marvin's minutes at the 3.

Either way, at least you'd have 3 young guys in the lineup that could possibly help you in the long run, along with the "core" of the team.

Looks like we are just two wishful thinking fools, LMAO. I would take that lineup but honestly I have a sneaky feeling you and I are going to be sick after Thursday night because I think someone really good is going to fall to #18.

[Crank]

LOL . . you think?

Yeah, we'd still have a dead man walking on the team in Bibby. But by the start of next season, hopefully Drew would've sent Bibby to the bench and play the role of backup PG/designated 3 point shooter, and finally give Teague a shot at starting.

Most important though, this would be our lineup going into the summer

PG - Teague

G - Johnson

F - Marvin

PF - Smith

C - Horford

C - Zaza

G - Jordan

G - Bibby

PF - Kenneth Faried ( 1st round pick ) . . rebounding machine who can block shots . . an upgrade over Josh Powell

So we'd have a potential scorer off the bench in Jordan, who could help replace what Jamal gave us, and a chance to draft a PF like Faried who can hit the boards from the 4 spot, despite being undersized.

Now you're looking at filling 4 spots at veteran minimum salary or 50% below MLE prices, to complete the roster.

- add a Nazr Mohammed? . . I'd go for that . . might have to give him more than the vet minimum though.

- bring Damien Wilkins back? . . . against it, but we could do worse

- add a 3rd PG in Earl Watson? . . . he can at least play a little defense

- bring back Jason Collins? . . . if just to play against Dwight, I'm not against that either.

Bench

6th - Jordan

7th - Zaza

8th - Nazr

9th - Bibby/Watson ( whomever is better )

10th - Faried

Collins, Wilkins, Bibby/Watson

Minutes breakdown

PG - Teague ( 34 ) - Bibby/Watson ( 14 )

G - Johnson ( 26 ) - Jordan ( 22 )

F - Marvin ( 26 ) - Johnson ( 10 ) - Smith ( 12 )

PF - Smith ( 24 ) - Horford ( 18 ) - Faried ( 6 )

C - Horford ( 18 ) - Zaza ( 15 ) - Nazr ( 15 )

It's not a championship squad, but hey, it's not like we're looking any better than this going into the summer. And it's the reality of our situation going into the offseason, barring a major trade. We just don't have the free agent money to do anything significant.

If a young guy like Jordan isn't quite ready, just put Wilkins in the lineup and halve Jordan's minutes. Or increase Joe's minutes at the 2, which would cause an increase of Marvin's minutes at the 3.

Either way, at least you'd have 3 young guys in the lineup that could possibly help you in the long run, along with the "core" of the team.

how about this for a reality check

If we dont make the Hinrich trade we dont get out of the first rd so Drew is fired and so is Sund the team is blown up because the new management comes in looking to make changes.

[AHF]

It has nothing to do with him being a pessimist. He's just being REAL.

Even Joe Johnson doesn't come to ATL, had the Hawks not found a loophole in the system, and frontloaded JJ's contract in that 1st year, so that he would get all of his salary increases in year 1 of that deal. JJ was paid 20 million in his first year in ATL ( Base salary of 12 million + the contract escalation bonuses of 8 million ). He went from being paid 2.36 million dollars to 20 million. Even if he had decided to go back to Phoenix for the same contract, Phoenix couldn't pay him that extra 8 million that Atlanta could.

That's probably one of the top 3 reasons why he chose Atlanta in 2005.

Saying "extra 8 million" isn't really accurate since it was simply acceleration of money owed him and therefore nets out the same with or without the bonus (unless you account for the time value of money and then the bonus is worth more but only because it is paid earlier). Accepting the terminology "extra 8 million" for now, though, I don't entirely get the point. Not only could Phoenix pay him the extra 8 million, if it chose to match it had to pay him the extra 8 million. Sarver is cheap and chose not to pay him - just as he chose to give away Rajon Rondo and Luol Deng to avoid having to pay them - but isn't wasn't a matter of "couldn't" so much as a matter of "wouldn't."

[MaceCase]

how about this for a reality check

If we dont make the Hinrich trade we dont get out of the first rd so Drew is fired and so is Sund the team is blown up because the new management comes in looking to make changes.

Why does this get overlooked so much? Yea he was hurt for the 2nd round but do people forget that he hurt himself making sure that we got to the 2nd round in the first place?

A capped out team that at least had a decent showing in the 2nd round of the playoffs is just a bit more palatable than a capped out team that got eliminated in the first round but still has two lower rung prospects to show for it.