Singleton and Jordan C for Hinrich

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Hawks payroll in 2011 - 12 . . had we not made that trade

Johnson - 18.04 million

Smith - 12.4 million

Horford - 12 million

Marvin - 7.5 million

Bibby - 6.2 million

Zaza - 4.75 million

Teague - 1.58 million

Collins - 1.3 million ( assuming the vet minimum rules stay the same and is re-signed )

Singleton - 1.28 million ( slotted salary for #18 pick in 2011 - 12 )

Jordan - 1.12 million

Varnado - 0.8 million ( assuming he was taken #31 last year and using Dexter Pittman's salary next season )

Total salary: 66.97 million

Still need to add 2 players . . either keep the 2nd round picks of Sy and Benson . . or get 2 vet minimum guys. Sy and Benson wouldn't cost the Hawks much more than 1 million extra. The vet minimum guys would cost the Hawks an extra 2.5 million at least.

after 2012 season, Bibby falls off the books

after 2013 season, Zaza falls off the books and a decision would have to be made on Smith and Teague. By then, we could've seen if the young guys taken in 2010 and 2011 are viable players.

You guys act like we were in some impossible situation, had we not made that trade.

- Jordan replaces Jamal as the bench gunner.

- Teague takes over as the starting PG

- Bibby becomes the useless, overpriced spot shooter off the bench and plays spot minutes at the point.

- we'd have Singleton to replace Wilkins

- we'd have Varnado to replace Powell

- Sy and Benson would be the fillers in suits on the bench

- Collins, if we wanted, would be re-signed again.

Unless Hinrich gets us to the Eastern Conference Finals, that trade didn't help out the Hawks for the future one bit.

[Admin]

And that's the problem. Why was Teague only allowed to play as the last resort during the Bulls series? He didn't just 'get it' all of a sudden. He played huge in some of the biggest games and at the most crucial time in the season. He wasn't injured, sick, or suspended during the regular season. He was rotting on the bench while Bibby struggled for the first half of the season and while Hinrich had a rough patch during the second half of the season. Teague was available during all that time and LD's answer to the PG problem was more Crawford at PG? I actually like LD and appreciate what he did as a Rookie coach this season, but this was one thing he got DEAD wrong and I feel it cost us.

I don't disagree with you about that at all ... but it is what it is and had things happened differently than they did we might never have known what Teague was capable of and maybe we'd have looked for a PG in the 1st round of this draft and not picked up Teague's option?

[Admin]

Hawks payroll in 2011 - 12 . . had we not made that trade

Johnson - 18.04 million

Smith - 12.4 million

Horford - 12 million

Marvin - 7.5 million

Bibby - 6.2 million

Zaza - 4.75 million

Teague - 1.58 million

Collins - 1.3 million ( assuming the vet minimum rules stay the same and is re-signed )

Singleton - 1.28 million ( slotted salary for #18 pick in 2011 - 12 )

Jordan - 1.12 million

Varnado - 0.8 million ( assuming he was taken #31 last year and using Dexter Pittman's salary next season )

Total salary: 66.97 million

Still need to add 2 players . . either keep the 2nd round picks of Sy and Benson . . or get 2 vet minimum guys. Sy and Benson wouldn't cost the Hawks much more than 1 million extra. The vet minimum guys would cost the Hawks an extra 2.5 million at least.

after 2012 season, Bibby falls off the books

after 2013 season, Zaza falls off the books and a decision would have to be made on Smith and Teague. By then, we could've seen if the young guys taken in 2010 and 2011 are viable players.

You guys act like we were in some impossible situation, had we not made that trade.

- Jordan replaces Jamal as the bench gunner.

- Teague takes over as the starting PG

- Bibby becomes the useless, overpriced spot shooter off the bench and plays spot minutes at the point.

- we'd have Singleton to replace Wilkins

- we'd have Varnado to replace Powell

- Sy and Benson would be the fillers in suits on the bench

- Collins, if we wanted, would be re-signed again.

Unless Hinrich gets us to the Eastern Conference Finals, that trade didn't help out the Hawks for the future one bit.

You're making a HUGE assumption there as we really have no idea how much of an influence Hinrich had on Teague but what I do know is that post-trade Teague sure looked a hell of a lot better than pre-trade Teague and the swap of Bibby for Hinrich was the only real difference in our lineup.

You're also making big assumptions that we'd have ended up with the same draft pick and would have taken those guys and the chances of that are pretty slim.

I'm in the camp that believes it's more likely Orlando blows us out again and the roster gets blown up and I'll take where we're at now any day over the chance to have one of the most inefficient volume shooters in the league in Jordan plus some rookie drafted around 20 in a historically weak draft.

[Diesel]

Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't the hawks have it ALL for once? If LD would've just played Teague/Crawford when it was obvious Bibby was on his last leg the future would seem so much brighter. We could have won the series against Orl AND had some nice young players who could contribute next season.

That wouldn't have happened when Bibby was having one of his best 3 pt shooting years and Teague couldn't hit the ocean with a rock.

The injury to Hinrich forced us to play Teague. Otherwise, he prolly would not have played.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You're making a HUGE assumption there as we really have no idea how much of an influence Hinrich had on Teague but what I do know is that post-trade Teague sure looked a hell of a lot better than pre-trade Teague and the swap of Bibby for Hinrich was the only real difference in our lineup.

You're also making big assumptions that we'd have ended up with the same draft pick and would have taken those guys and the chances of that are pretty slim.

I'm in the camp that believes it's more likely Orlando blows us out again and the roster gets blown up and I'll take where we're at now any day over the chance to have one of the most inefficient volume shooters in the league in Jordan plus some rookie drafted around 20 in a historically weak draft.

The only assumption I'm making, is that Teague probably would've been handed the starting PG job next season, if Bibby sucked. As for the draft picks, of course they may not have been the picks . . but those guys would've been available for us to take. It still doesn't discount the fact that we would've had three 1st round picks on the roster, and a 4th guy who would've been taken #31 ( essentially a late 1st round pick at 1/2 the cost ).

The reality is that the Hawks now have to re-populate the rest of the bench with vet minimum guys ( if they're trying to stay under the Tax at all costs ).

- Joe Smith

- Jason Collins

- Etan Thomas

- Josh Powell

- Damien Wilkins

Those are the 5 guys that we've gotten for the minimum. Of that group, Collins only is useful vs Dwight Howard and Damien is a inconsistent offensive and defensive wing off the bench ( better defensive than offensive ). With only 7 guys signed, we'll have to re-populate the bench again with veteran throwaway type talents or get lucky and find some young kid that went undrafted, especially if the ASG refuses to pay above the minimum for one or two players.

I wasn't fond of the trade when it went down, and I'm definitely not fond of it now.

[DrReality]

This pick mAde me think of the pick we sold a year ago and remember being excited about getting Whieside? But it didn't happen. Guess it shoes how strapped for cash they were

[capstone21]

This feels like the Marvin / Chris Paul arguement.

Its done...nothing we can do about it.

[DeacKillsaDevil]

Half of the players drafted in the 1st round this year will not be in the league after 5 years. It was an awful draft.

[coachx]

The only assumption I'm making, is that Teague probably would've been handed the starting PG job next season

That is probably right but he would probably have been walking on egg shells b/c he NEVER got consistent minutes for 6 consecutive games before. Now he has a ton of confidence and truely believes he can play with any one after leading the Hawks to 2 second round playoff victories (something Bibby never did) AND going head to head vs. the leage MVP to average 15 ppg / 4 apg / 3 rpg / of 53% shooting.

Now Teague believes in himself.......and just as important the Head Coach and his teamates now believe in Teague. Now Teague has his head right and that is where it all starts.

Edited June 24, 2011 by coachx

[hawkman]

Half of the players drafted in the 1st round this year will not be in the league after 5 years. It was an awful draft.

I'm sure this is one opinion everyone can agree with. This draft flat out sucked and there's no getting around that. The draft order after the first 6? guys had no bearing on who would actually contribute in the NBA. Some of those lottery picks and early first rounders didn't look impressive at all. :Yawn:

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So half of the 1st round doesn't look impressive, but the Hawks 2nd round pick at #48 kinda does? All the talk about Benson, and the guys he supposedly looks like. Meanwhile, the next Dennis Rodman ( Kenneth Faried ) or Stacey Augmon ( Chris Singleton ) would've been available at #18.

While this draft doesn't have a lot of superstar and star talent, it does have quite a few niche type players who can do one thing well enough to survive in the league. Jimmer could survive as an Eddie House like shooter. Kemba is a Ben Gordon clone. Tobias Harris is versatile like Cliff Levingston. There's niche talent all over this draft.

Why not just admit that the Hawks messed up as usual?

The minute the maxed out JJ and extended Horford, they should've been trying to acquire as many talented but cheap assets as they possibly could. And not 2nd round or horribe vet minimum cheap either.

[vext]

So half of the 1st round doesn't look impressive, but the Hawks 2nd round pick at #48 kinda does? All the talk about Benson, and the guys he supposedly looks like. Meanwhile, the next Dennis Rodman ( Kenneth Faried ) or Stacey Augmon ( Chris Singleton ) would've been available at #18.

While this draft doesn't have a lot of superstar and star talent, it does have quite a few niche type players who can do one thing well enough to survive in the league. Jimmer could survive as an Eddie House like shooter. Kemba is a Ben Gordon clone. Tobias Harris is versatile like Cliff Levingston. There's niche talent all over this draft.

Why not just admit that the Hawks messed up as usual?

The minute the maxed out JJ and extended Horford, they should've been trying to acquire as many talented but cheap assets as they possibly could. And not 2nd round or horribe vet minimum cheap either.

Yeah, and we should have drafted CP3/Deron instead of Marvin and Brandon Roy instead of Shelden. Sh!t happens. Hinrich was/is an upgrade over Bibby and no one at the time could have guessed that Teague would come out against the Bulls. And this is assuming that he doesn't regress next year. What is 18 going to get us? Another player that may or may not work out (see example A - Acie Law). The fact is that the draft (especially this one) is a crap shoot. You have to work with what you know at the moment not what you look back at 4 months later. I would have loved to keep that draft pick and still make the trade, but you have to make tough decisions sometime. Where would we be if we kept Bibby and the pick while getting swept in the first round only to find out we could have traded him for Hinrich? We would all be b!tching.

Life goes on, things have been worse, and things could be worse.

[KB21]

This pick mAde me think of the pick we sold a year ago and remember being excited about getting Whieside? But it didn't happen. Guess it shoes how strapped for cash they were

Strapped for cash? If they were strapped for cash, they shouldn't have made Joe Johnson the highest paid player in the league. The strapped for cash argument doesn't fly for me. This is more of a poor allocation of assets.

So half of the 1st round doesn't look impressive, but the Hawks 2nd round pick at #48 kinda does? All the talk about Benson, and the guys he supposedly looks like. Meanwhile, the next Dennis Rodman ( Kenneth Faried ) or Stacey Augmon ( Chris Singleton ) would've been available at #18.

While this draft doesn't have a lot of superstar and star talent, it does have quite a few niche type players who can do one thing well enough to survive in the league. Jimmer could survive as an Eddie House like shooter. Kemba is a Ben Gordon clone. Tobias Harris is versatile like Cliff Levingston. There's niche talent all over this draft.

Why not just admit that the Hawks messed up as usual?

The minute the maxed out JJ and extended Horford, they should've been trying to acquire as many talented but cheap assets as they possibly could. And not 2nd round or horribe vet minimum cheap either.

I agree. Would the Hawks have had a worse bench had they not gone with the vet min guys and let guys like "he who's name shall not be mentioned", maybe Jarvis Varnado, Chris Singleton, and Keith Benson get their feet wet?

[GameTime]

Don't forget we would still be stuck with Bibby and his 2012 contract. (He would not have been bought out if not traded to the Wizards).

Plus we would have been surely beaten by the Magic had Bibby remained the starter. Then Teage would have never had time to shine against Rose for 6 straight games in the 2nd Round.

The glass can be half full with the right perspective..........epsecially if those 6 games against Rose gives Teague the confidence to turn his career around and be our be our franchise PG.

If Kirk Hinrich was healthy Teague wouldn't have played at all against the Bulls. I think we beat the Magic even with Bibby actually. The Magic were pretty bad last year.

[Diesel]

If Kirk Hinrich was healthy Teague wouldn't have played at all against the Bulls. I think we beat the Magic even with Bibby actually. The Magic were pretty bad last year.

That's BS. If Bibby is our starting PG, the Magic Beats us by an average of 14. It's a sweep in the first round. You say the Magic were pretty Bad...?'

Check out the laughter...

again.

Dudes were laughing talking about the possibility of us winning. David Aldridge chuckled when he talked about us possible upsetting Magic. It's not just these guys, there was a strong feeling that we didn't have more than a punchers chance. Orlando was a dominant team this past season. The only teams that beat them in series was US, Boston, Chicago, NO, PTL, and UT. That's 6 out of 30 teams. You might not have liked the makeup of their team, but come on man... look at the freakin depth. They could go to the bench and pull of Redick, Richardson, Anderson, etc. Who were we pulling off of our bench? After crawford, who was there?

Let me explain to you how it would have went..

Bibby plays, Jameer Nelson blows by him every play..

Our big lineup fails because Nelson is hitting shot after shot.

SWEEP.

[Randy]

Hard to see how winning one playoff series is worth dragging your team down for seveal years. I like Kirk's game a lot better than Bibby, but he came at a pretty high price. Basic problem is both Drew and Woody before him are always more afraid of losing their job than anything else. So they play the proven guy (Bibby) and don't develop talent.

[lethalweapon3]

I still prefer saying "HWNSNBM, Mo Evans, and Chris Singleton for Hilton Armstrong".

~lw3

[Admin]

Hard to see how winning one playoff series is worth dragging your team down for seveal years. I like Kirk's game a lot better than Bibby, but he came at a pretty high price. Basic problem is both Drew and Woody before him are always more afraid of losing their job than anything else. So they play the proven guy (Bibby) and don't develop talent.

Dragging our team down for several years by not having Jo Crawford and some random middle of the 1st round rookie in a historically weak draft who may or may not make anything of himself? I think that is a bit dramatic ... but I do agree with the remainder of your point in regard to Drew and Woody and developing talent.

And for me yes I absolutely think gaining that confidence that we could beat Orlando in the playoffs was 100% worth trading JC and that 1st.

[vext]

Hard to see how winning one playoff series is worth dragging your team down for seveal years. I like Kirk's game a lot better than Bibby, but he came at a pretty high price. Basic problem is both Drew and Woody before him are always more afraid of losing their job than anything else. So they play the proven guy (Bibby) and don't develop talent.

Actually, winning one playoff series this past year is very different than years before. And going 6 games in the 2nd round against one of the best teams in the league is a major difference as well. The difference this year is that we weren't playing the Bucks or even a crappy Heat team like years before. Remember, we were supposed to get swept by the Magic and definitely swept by the Bulls. That alone is worth the trade. What this team needs the most right now is confidence and respect. Respect from the media, fans, and especially the refs will have a dire affect on us in the future. This is what we need to attract free agents (if we had money, but that is another story). This is what we need to get a few more calls our way. We were already a good team, but we got no respect outside of other coaches and players.

That's not even including the fact that Teague had a great series against the Bulls. 40 minutes per game against Rose for 6 games with only 7 turnovers? That is ridiculous. Young players just don't wake up one day and kick @ss. They have to be given a chance to do that and have the confidence to do it. If we get bounced by the Magic in the 1st round (which we would have with Bibby, don't kid yourself), Teague would have never gotten his chance. This year would be year 3 of him playing 10 minutes a game on average and plenty of DNPs. He would probably never get a chance with us and would probably end up overseas somewhere or end up blowing up on another team. Hell, look at "he who's name shall not be mentioned". He had small moments with us at the end of blowout games, but he probably would have never gotten a real chance. Put the ball in his hands in Washington and he is at least producing quality minutes.

And believe me, I wish we could have kept the pick. Hell, I wish we could have kept Crawford. But you can't get something for nothing most of the time. I will take losing that pick and Crawford if that means we end up with a real starting point guard and a solid backup point guard. We have been weak at that spot for years. Finally we got a legitimate, albeit aging, starter with Bibby. Now we end up being strong at that position with Teague and Hinrich. More importantly, we are defensively strong at that position now. That alone makes us a better team. I think people underestimate how important defense is at the point guard position nowadays with the point guard friends rules that have been put in place in the last decade or so.

[Diesel]

Hard to see how winning one playoff series is worth dragging your team down for seveal years. I like Kirk's game a lot better than Bibby, but he came at a pretty high price. Basic problem is both Drew and Woody before him are always more afraid of losing their job than anything else. So they play the proven guy (Bibby) and don't develop talent.

First off...

Crawford was never going to play.

He was holding Salim Stoudamire's old seat.

Second off...

I like Singleton, but I'm liking the fact that now we have an answer at PG.

Had Bibby stayed, we would have picked a PG in this draft to replace Bibby and compete with Teague. NOT Singleton.

So instead of Singleton, you're crying about Norris Cole or Joseph...