Are the Hawks in a win now mode?

[Diesel]

Let's just get to it. I believe the Hawks are in a win now mode. We have waited on "the core" to develop. We have stuck with them for longer than most other teams would have. Now we stand in a place where we have been to the 2nd round 3 times with the last time being most successful. The core has been resigned and now it's time to make hard decisions. So here's the question. DO Hawks fans know how to respond to being in a win now mode?

I think not.

We cry over every little move that is made.

We cry over the trade of JC2 for Hinrich ( that's a win now move).

We cry over drafted for need instead of drafted Selby.. (Thats a win now move).

Next, we will cry over trading for fit because we have recognized our flaws.

So what's squawking?

[pimp]

Seems like they are in " avoid the tax mode"

If we let Jamal go for nothing , then trade Josh for expiring junk, that

would not be " win now" moves.

The Heat and Bulls are in win now mode.You just know the heat

will find a way to bring in a good PG and C, and the Bulls will

find a Sg.The Hawks will try to "improve from within " again, like last

summer.I hope I'm wrong , but I won't get my hopes up.

[Wretch]

Seems like they are in " avoid the tax mode"

If we let Jamal go for nothing , then trade Josh for expiring junk, that

would not be " win now" moves.

The Heat and Bulls are in win now mode.You just know the heat

will find a way to bring in a good PG and C, and the Bulls will

find a Sg.The Hawks will try to "improve from within " again, like last

summer.I hope I'm wrong , but I won't get my hopes up.

...or "Sell the Team" mode. Win now means do whatever it takes to get better. The Drew hiring wasn't about doing what it takes. If anything, this team needed a break from the entirety of the Woodson regime. A new and PROVEN coach that would put them over -and one that could get the potential out of Smith. They hired the cheapest guy they could and he has done neither.

Win now would mean trading Smoove for a center like Bynum or Bogut (+ or - what would make a fair deal). Win now would mean not dumping players for expirings. If there's any truth to any of the JJ/Smoove rumors...then we certainly weren't in win now mode. JJ trades were all dumps and there was nothing about Smoove for a lottery pick that says "win now."

I just don't see it. I see a team that is trying to avoid the luxury tax and an ownership group that is trying to tread water.

[coachx]

Let's just get to it. I believe the Hawks are in a win now mode. We have waited on "the core" to develop. We have stuck with them for longer than most other teams would have. Now we stand in a place where we have been to the 2nd round 3 times with the last time being most successful. The core has been resigned and now it's time to make hard decisions. So here's the question. DO Hawks fans know how to respond to being in a win now mode?

I think not.

We cry over every little move that is made.

We cry over the trade of JC2 for Hinrich ( that's a win now move).

We cry over drafted for need instead of drafted Selby.. (Thats a win now move).

Next, we will cry over trading for fit because we have recognized our flaws.

So what's squawking?

Good post D.

In my opinion most squawkers (and people in general) are conditioned to be pessimist and complain. I guess we are conditioned to be that way in today's society.

I try my best to be a contrarian to that b/c I simply don't see things the way some do. I would have a hard time finding enjoyment in life if all I did was try to nit pick the bad from every situation like some seem to do, far too often, here.

I see alot of positive things going on for this Hawks club right now.

Edited June 28, 2011 by coachx

[niremetal]

...or "Sell the Team" mode. Win now means do whatever it takes to get better. The Drew hiring wasn't about doing what it takes. If anything, this team needed a break from the entirety of the Woodson regime. A new and PROVEN coach that would put them over -and one that could get the potential out of Smith. They hired the cheapest guy they could and he has done neither.

Win now would mean trading Smoove for a center like Bynum or Bogut (+ or - what would make a fair deal). Win now would mean not dumping players for expirings. If there's any truth to any of the JJ/Smoove rumors...then we certainly weren't in win now mode. JJ trades were all dumps and there was nothing about Smoove for a lottery pick that says "win now."

I just don't see it. I see a team that is trying to avoid the luxury tax and an ownership group that is trying to tread water.

Why are people still talking about the Josh for draft picks rumors as if they were true?

[macdaddy]

In fairness you can't judge their motivations on rumored trades. And as far as not hiring an expensive marquee coach, do the names thibideaux and splostra mean anything? They were fighting for the eastern conference crown. What we saw in the playoffs was that Drew could make the right moves to prevent his team from being at a disadvantage. The rest is about the players stepping up which they were able to do pretty well.

But I agree it remains to be seen if we are really in win now. If we are then we will increase the amount of talent on this team. For all the screaming about centers and point guards I don't think that's our problem. We have Horf/zaza and we have teague/hinrich.

We are extremely deficient at SF and have no bench for 2,3, 4. Which means we need 3 quality players. A starting SF, a backup PF and a backup 2/3. That's a tall order if you have no money.

[mrhonline]

This is, what, the 6th time you've made a thread like this one in the past two months? I can tell I'm gonna need some aspirin to get through the lockout threads...

[Wretch]

Why are people still talking about the Josh for draft picks rumors as if they were true?

Read:

If there's any truth to any of the JJ/Smoove rumors...then we certainly weren't in win now mode.

In fairness you can't judge their motivations on rumored trades. And as far as not hiring an expensive marquee coach, do the names thibideaux and splostra mean anything? They were fighting for the eastern conference crown. What we saw in the playoffs was that Drew could make the right moves to prevent his team from being at a disadvantage. The rest is about the players stepping up which they were able to do pretty well.

But I agree it remains to be seen if we are really in win now. If we are then we will increase the amount of talent on this team. For all the screaming about centers and point guards I don't think that's our problem. We have Horf/zaza and we have teague/hinrich.

We are extremely deficient at SF and have no bench for 2,3, 4. Which means we need 3 quality players. A starting SF, a backup PF and a backup 2/3. That's a tall order if you have no money.

Yes I have heard of Thibodeau:

"As a defensive coach, he helped the Houston Rockets rank among the Top 5 in the league in scoring defense and field goal percentage defense from 2004 to 2007, and has helped his team finish in the league's Top 10 in team defense 15 times. He coached in 87 playoff games and was part of the 1999 NBA Finals as an assistant coach with the New York Knicks prior to joining the Celtics, with whom he won the 2008 NBA Championship."

I wouldn't say the Bulls were in building mode when they hired him, but they weren't in "Win Now" mode either. Nobody predicted they would be that good, that fast - and it says something that Rose won the MVP award. They were conducting business as usual and took a look at making the best possible coaching decision for their team. Thibs was not a bad choice, just as Woodson was not a bad choice when he was hired to groom our young team. The hiring of Larry Drew was not the same. He got a short leash and a tiny paycheck.

Spoelstra was not brought in during "win now" mode for the Heat and he is babysitting that team.

The Hawks at best, are in limbo. It's funny that people try to put spin on this and all of a sudden, the realists in here are "pessimists." I have watched over 25 seasons of Hawks basketball, barely missing a game. For about 23 of those years I have followed this team WITH BLIND OPTIMISM.

I defended Chills. I was optimistic about bringing in vets like Willis.I was optimistic about Mike Woodson and his defensive accolades. I initially supported BK's idea of a multi-talented, interchangeable team. I thought we could beat Orlando TWO SEASONS AGO. I defended Smoove and his shot - saying that it would be okay for him to take a few per game and that his shot wasn't bad. I refused to give up on Marvin until the very end - which was THIS SEASON.

I defended the money we spent on Joe Johnson and I defend him every day to people who say he's "sorry." I believe(d) that he is/was the 3rd best SG in the league.

I'm not going to sit here and be labeled the resident, pessimist, *******. I'm not. I am simply fed up with being "good enough" and I'm not going to listen to that ******** anymore. I'm tired of 2nd and 3rd tier free agents. Tired of hoping some random journeyman is going to "put us over the top." Tired of looking for superstar leftovers like Shaq and Vince Carter. Tired of mid to late 1st round picks. Tired of "improving from within." Tired of 1st and 2nd round *ss whoopings. I am sick of being irrelevant and tired of fans accepting that. That's what we are and that's the kind of moves we make. Getting to the ECF's (let alone finals) takes a back seat to the courtroom drama and the financial drama with this franchise.

Honestly though, I think EVERYBODY in here is tired of it...and if any of us had the money to buy this team or had the ability to make moves, I *GUARANTEE* that there is a LOT of **** that would change at the top. Starting with the idea that this team is "good enough."

Let's not try to dodge the profanity filter, guys. thanks!

Edited June 28, 2011 by AHF

[Swatguy]

In fairness you can't judge their motivations on rumored trades. And as far as not hiring an expensive marquee coach, do the names thibideaux and splostra mean anything? They were fighting for the eastern conference crown. What we saw in the playoffs was that Drew could make the right moves to prevent his team from being at a disadvantage. The rest is about the players stepping up which they were able to do pretty well.

But I agree it remains to be seen if we are really in win now. If we are then we will increase the amount of talent on this team. For all the screaming about centers and point guards I don't think that's our problem. We have Horf/zaza and we have teague/hinrich.

We are extremely deficient at SF and have no bench for 2,3, 4. Which means we need 3 quality players. A starting SF, a backup PF and a backup 2/3. That's a tall order if you have no money.

I agree.

I talked to a scribe last summer about LD, he said LD can do as good as any other coach given the chance. LD has done well, players just have to step up. It is too obvious to me. The problem is definately not Josh or LD. The problem('s) are the disappointments. Moving the disappointments (2,3) and get three guys in those spot's would be in the right direction.

[DrReality]

This is, what, the 6th time you've made a thread like this one in the past two months? I can tell I'm gonna need some aspirin to get through the lockout threads...

LMAO

It is becoming more and more clear that the ASG have been in a crisis from day one, or shortly after. Their legal woes have cost them millions and with the sale of the Thrashers and rumors about the

Hawks sale it has clarified the fact that they have been in survival mode. In light of that I think they have done a decent job of trying to make the team competitive but I don't think they have what it takes finacially nor in their brain trust to take the team to the next level. Sure hope the prospective buyer comes with both.

[Randy]

I think that now its going to be impossible to answer the question since there is a probably a new owner in the mix. What his mode will be will not be known till he takes over. If there is a new owner, then the first big question will be whether Sund is kept, be replaced, or retire. I figure Drew is safe with a new owner, for a while.

As for ASG, they were in a blow up mode, then a rebuilding mode, and then I think with the acquisition of Bibby switched to a win now mode. Crawford, the new JJ contract and Hinrich were clearly part of a strategy to win in the present, not to build for the future. I think most of the criticism was that they didn't do enough, or make the right moves, not that they weren't trying to win now.

I don't fault the ASG for hiring Drew - if any other team had offered him a head coach job, most would have say he deserved the chance. I do think that by paying him as little as possible, and giving him only a two year deal, he probably started out lacking the confidence a guy needed to really do the job.

What happens next is anybody's guess. We've got a lot of things that have to happen and be resolved - first the lockout, then free agency, then the pre-season.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Randy

[BrazilianHawk]

Yes I have heard of Thibodeau:

"As a defensive coach, he helped the Houston Rockets rank among the Top 5 in the league in scoring defense and field goal percentage defense from 2004 to 2007, and has helped his team finish in the league's Top 10 in team defense 15 times. He coached in 87 playoff games and was part of the 1999 NBA Finals as an assistant coach with the New York Knicks prior to joining the Celtics, with whom he won the 2008 NBA Championship."

I wouldn't say the Bulls were in building mode when they hired him, but they weren't in "Win Now" mode either. Nobody predicted they would be that good, that fast - and it says something that Rose won the MVP award. They were conducting business as usual and took a look at making the best possible coaching decision for their team. Thibs was not a bad choice, just as Woodson was not a bad choice when he was hired to groom our young team. The hiring of Larry Drew was not the same. He got a short leash and a tiny paycheck.

Spoelstra was not brought in during "win now" mode for the Heat and he is babysitting that team.

The Hawks at best, are in limbo. It's funny that people try to put spin on this and all of a sudden, the realists in here are "pessimists." I have watched over 25 seasons of Hawks basketball, barely missing a game. For about 23 of those years I have followed this team WITH BLIND OPTIMISM.

I defended Chills. I was optimistic about bringing in vets like Willis.I was optimistic about Mike Woodson and his defensive accolades. I initially supported BK's idea of a multi-talented, interchangeable team. I thought we could beat Orlando TWO SEASONS AGO. I defended Smoove and his shot - saying that it would be okay for him to take a few per game and that his shot wasn't bad. I refused to give up on Marvin until the very end - which was THIS SEASON.

I defended the money we spent on Joe Johnson and I defend him every day to people who say he's "sorry." I believe(d) that he is/was the 3rd best SG in the league.

I'm not going to sit here and be labeled the resident, pessimist, *******. I'm not. I am simply fed up with being "good enough" and I'm not going to listen to that ******** anymore. I'm tired of 2nd and 3rd tier free agents. Tired of hoping some random journeyman is going to "put us over the top." Tired of looking for superstar leftovers like Shaq and Vince Carter. Tired of mid to late 1st round picks. Tired of "improving from within." Tired of 1st and 2nd round *ss whoopings. I am sick of being irrelevant and tired of fans accepting that. That's what we are and that's the kind of moves we make. Getting to the ECF's (let alone finals) takes a back seat to the courtroom drama and the financial drama with this franchise.

Honestly though, I think EVERYBODY in here is tired of it...and if any of us had the money to buy this team or had the ability to make moves, I *GUARANTEE* that there is a LOT of **** that would change at the top. Starting with the idea that this team is "good enough."

WOW! That was like...

ME LIKEY!

:clapping:

Edited June 28, 2011 by AHF

[TheTruth]

No way Diesel. Come back at me with this "Win Now Mode" stuff when we:

1) Finally decide to use the MLE

2) Go into luxury tax to significantly upgrade a few key spots and the bench

3) Are willing to hire a proven coach when it matters

4) Don't offer the head coach we hired instead the lowest salary in the league.

5) Don't stubbornly hang onto a core that has proven it has needed to be broken up seasons ago.

6) Find playing time to reserves, and not wait til injury (Hinrich) or protracted underperformance (Bibby) force your hand.

7) And lastly, when accountability becomes the norm.

[Wretch]

No way Diesel. Come back at me with this "Win Now Mode" stuff when we:

1) Finally decide to use the MLE

2) Go into luxury tax to significantly upgrade a few key spots and the bench

3) Are willing to hire a proven coach when it matters

4) Don't offer the head coach we hired instead the lowest salary in the league.

5) Don't stubbornly hang onto a core that has proven it has needed to be broken up seasons ago.

6) Find playing time to reserves, and not wait til injury (Hinrich) or protracted underperformance (Bibby) force your hand.

7) And lastly, when accountability becomes the norm.

I could just go on and on about each of these points. It's like...if you take what the champions, runners up, and contenders do...and you make a checklist and compare them to us? It's like night and day. Hell, you've got some of the worst teams in the league - New Jersey, Charlotte, Cleveland, Sacramento, New York, the Wizards....throwing money at a list of impressive names Avery Johnson, Flip Saunders, Byron Scott, Larry Brown, Paul SIlas, Westpaul, DiAntoni... You've got teams like GOLDEN FREAKIN' STATE making waves by hiring a hot coaching name on everybody's list in Mark Jackson.

We're supposed to be in "win now" mode and we hire a shadow from Mike Woodson's regime? We're one of the top teams in the league, and we make a statement by...hiring the cheapest coach in the league? It's as much about talent as it is about making a statement. The statement they made with that hire is clear.

To be fair, I was even optimistic about the Motion Offense^TM I was put off by the ho-hum nature of the hire, but I was interested to see what LD had up his sleeve. I'm honestly not disappointed with him. Because he did his job and he did it better than anyone expected him to. He may be a good coach or a great coach in the future - but when you're struggling to get over the hump, that's not the kind of hire that you make. Just like right now... You don't sit on this core KNOWING that they have struggled for years to mature, struggled in the first round, struggled in the 2nd round, and don't look to be able to improve significantly from within. Other teams do what it takes on and off the court. That's why they get to conference finals. That's why they sign the FA's. That's why they win BIG.

We do what we can and we hope for the best.

[Diesel]

No way Diesel. Come back at me with this "Win Now Mode" stuff when we:

1) Finally decide to use the MLE

2) Go into luxury tax to significantly upgrade a few key spots and the bench

3) Are willing to hire a proven coach when it matters

4) Don't offer the head coach we hired instead the lowest salary in the league.

5) Don't stubbornly hang onto a core that has proven it has needed to be broken up seasons ago.

6) Find playing time to reserves, and not wait til injury (Hinrich) or protracted underperformance (Bibby) force your hand.

7) And lastly, when accountability becomes the norm.

Is the spending of money the only thing that signals win now?

What about continuity?

What about winning under the cap?

What about collecting assets for future trades?

What about playing time?

Win now is much different than win at all costs?

Win at all cost is the florida Marlins winning it all? They did it but it wasn't anything more than spending the most.

Win now is a decision made that the moves (whether above or below the cap) will be moves that strategically place the team in a position of competing rather than developing.

there's a lot of what people on this board describe as win now that are either win at all cost or developing.

Not trading Bibby JC2 = Developing.

Spending over the cap = Win at all cost.

However, trading for HInrich = Win now.

Making moves to fix holes = Win now.

collecting assets for later trades = Win now

Playing a fully developed core = Win now.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Diesel

[thecampster]

Why are people still talking about the Josh for draft picks rumors as if they were true?

I know right? I kept trying to debunk them in the days before the draft, especially the one sending him to Orlando for pieces. I think it's just a lack of understanding how a GM puts together a team. Sports writers may not like Josh. Fans may get tired of his complaining to refs or shot selection but Josh impacts games positively. He is maybe the only Hawk that can consistently impose his will on the court (especially at home and that sells tickets). Management doesn't trade that kind of a player unless they have Rodman/Artest like problems. Josh has been relatively headache free when it comes to legal trouble/locker room things.

[CBAreject]

Win now mode? I think any team that is capped out has to have some semblance of urgency. There's nobody here who doesn't want to win now. But the problem with the Hinrich trade wasn't that anybody here didn't want to "win now". Most of us who opposed the trade simply didn't think it was enough to make us "win now". That was the problem with it. It was a "win now" move for a team that had zero championship aspirations. I said it wouldn't improve our playoff fate. I was wrong. We went from a sure first-round loss to a second-round loss. Big whoop. I want a championship contender, and the only "win now" move that will get us there is a blockbuster for a superstar. This team is too tragically flawed to ever contend. As such, we need to build assets to make a run for somebody, not piss them away on fringe players that us from mediocrity to mediocrity. If we can't get a game-changing player, we need to blow it up and start over. Either way, we'll be glad we had the assets.

[Diesel]

Win now mode? I think any team that is capped out has to have some semblance of urgency. There's nobody here who doesn't want to win now. But the problem with the Hinrich trade wasn't that anybody here didn't want to "win now". Most of us who opposed the trade simply didn't think it was enough to make us "win now". That was the problem with it. It was a "win now" move for a team that had zero championship aspirations. I said it wouldn't improve our playoff fate. I was wrong. We went from a sure first-round loss to a second-round loss. Big whoop. I want a championship contender, and the only "win now" move that will get us there is a blockbuster for a superstar. This team is too tragically flawed to ever contend. As such, we need to build assets to make a run for somebody, not piss them away on fringe players that us from mediocrity to mediocrity. If we can't get a game-changing player, we need to blow it up and start over. Either way, we'll be glad we had the assets.

I think the problem is that no move would have changed the minds of people. We could have made the same moves and then thrown in Powell for Chris Paul and Dwight Howard and I believe the majority would have still believe that we were not trying to win now. They would have said.. well you still got a logjam here and you still have this coach. The point is nothing, outside of winning, can change the thoughts of this fanbase... and even winning is not enough. Had we won it all, there would be many saying fluke, they can't repeat. Getting this fanbase to see win now is difficult because this fanbase doesn't know winning. So making strong win now basketball moves to this fan base looks like wasting time and talent. Even in your post, you focus on a "tragic flaw" that shall remain nameless without applauding the fact that we bettered a team that bettered us by 25 ppg last year and we matchuped with the best team in the NBA and could have taken them farther had it not been for injury... and that is with your "tragic flaw that shall remain nameless.". Are we a fanbase that will always see the negative and never celebrate the positives? I think so? Even our win over Orlando... What does everybody say.. OH, Orlando sucked this year. This aside from the fact that Howard was a much better player this year, Carter and Lewis would have never kept up with Howard and all the guys that they traded for save Arenas was as productive as advertised... and Nelson stepped his game up also.

BUt what do Hawks fans do? We build these grand illusions of the most negative outcome and we place our team there. We're one of the top 8 teams in the league.. yet.. we got a "tragic flaw". We proved many naysayers wrong yet... our victories were "big whoop". Maybe there's some Sports psychologist who can help us with our team hatred.

[Wretch]

What about continuity?

I want to add a point here... When you cannot get over the hump, the only thing you are continuing is a middling "good enough" team. What is so different about this team? The core has not changed. In fact, the only player that has truly grown is Horford - and will he ever develop a true post game? Everyone else, Marvin, Smoove, JJ...they've all regressed. We've swapped Flip for Crawford. We've swapped Woodson for his assistant. We've got a tight budget and no bench - which is basically the same bench we've had for 3 or 4 years.

The good money is on this team making the playoffs at about 45-48 wins, locking up a 4th or 5th seed, making the 1st round and getting beat in the 2nd. It's not pessimistic or negative at all. It's realistic. Should we be happy about that? No and now is not the time to be content.

This is where the real teams in the NBA go right and YOUR Atlanta Hawks go left. This is where you make the blockbuster or cash in your chips (and start over). The right trade of Horf or Smoove puts us back in the hunt. Cashing in the chips takes us out of the running for a bit, but we come out with a Rose or a Durant or Blake - and the put the city on their back. This is IMPORTANT and not to be overlooked. It is THE ticket to the big games. We haven't had one in a long time and that's why we still haven't made the conference finals. The alternative to either of the above options is to ride this thing out - play it safe and hope that (insert random yearly hoped for breakout thing).

Upper middle of the pack is a bad place to be. You're a step ahead of the dogs behind you (getting bigger and faster) but you're clearly a step behind the big dogs and losing speed.

Something's got to give man.

[thescout5]

Agreed Wretch 100% with your opinions. You either have to be real bad or real good and if your right below the elite teams make the effort to add talent to close the gap and become elite yourself. The Hawks don't do that and of course we get suckered in every year thinking all the pieces will some how fall right and the Hawks can win it all. The core has been together long enough and while we tend to live in a glass bubble believing the Hawks if they could do this or that could contend the other teams are thinking the same way and adding talent to keep elite or get back to that status.

While many think we aren't far away since the Hawks lost to the Bulls last I looked the Heat are the conference champs and will be a thorn every year for awhile. What is Hawks management going to do about it? Will Marvin miracously become an all star small forward, Teague become a bonafide play maker, JJ able to hit shots in big games, and the Hawks find an inside game all this year. Not likely therefore will be playing the same tune next year.