Why ( northcyde ) so hostile?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . had to borrow that opening line from Public Enemy's "Prophets of Rage". And while the Hawks are persecuted, it's mainly because of this dumb azz management group and GM that can't seem to get things right. Despite the playoff "success", this team is in dire straights, because we were basically an average to below average team for most of the season. Even our coach was worried about if we could just "flip the switch" when playoff time came around. Fortunately, guys like JJ, Jamal ( in the Orlando series ), Teague ( in the Bulls series ), and Josh, Zaza, and Hinrich in spot situations, DID flip the switch. Next season though, we can't rely on that switch being flipped. Otherwise, we may end up like the Lakers, who thought they could flip it, but didn't have the personnel ( especially off the bench ) to battle the elite level teams.

My negativity these days really didn't start until the Hawks started doing the bare minimum to improve this team. The players, when they do their jobs, still get my support. I've been a critic of Jeff Teague and his passive play, but I'll definitely get behind him if he plays with the same aggressiveness he showed in the Chicago series.

I remember you and I ( referring to Hotlanta ) damn near begging this team to add frontcourt help before the 2009 season, only for them to add Jason Collins and Joe Smith. We both knew that rebounding was a major issue with this team. 2 years later, that's still the case, because our reserve big men are horrible. But last summer did it for me concerning Sund and the ASG. As some call it . . it brought me to the "dark side". The only thing they did to stabilize us for the future, was re-sign JJ . . . and even that may be a de-stabilizer because of his contract.

- didn't upgrade in coach

- didn't use the #31 last year

- didn't use the TPE they got from the Childress trade

- didn't add a decent frontline player

- added Collins, Powell, and Etan, and tried to pass them off like all 3 would help us

- traded for an aging and average PG that has never done anything, and gave up young assets to bring him in

Instead of the Hawks having three 1st round draft picks and a very high 2nd round pick to help build for the future . . . we have one of those guys here ( Teague ) . . and it took an act of God just to see if he could be trusted with the starters.

Some of you can look over the errors of the ASG/Sund this past year and not make a big deal out of it, simply because we won two 2nd round games. But this was the time to show if we were SERIOUS about getting to that next level, or if we were just playing around. The initial acquisition of those two 1st round picks gave an indication that the ASG/Sund were serious about improving this team from top to bottom. But they sell the pick for money almost as fast as we acquired it. They proved right there what their mindset was. After the JJ signing, I thought things may have been different . . then they go shopping at the Dollar General store, and try to pass those players off as guys who can help us.

So to me, either these guys need to get SERIOUS about this ish, or get out the F'in game.

It's that simple to me.

And it's funny how LD/Sund want to add "Blue Collar Players" all of a sudden, seeing how the Bulls roughed us up. Had they'd kept that damn draft pick, we could've added Singleton or Faried ( two guys who are definitely "blue collar" ) to the mix. But as usual the past few years, we're looking for the lesser players to blossom into the best possible scenario. It's incredible that we need a Keith Benson to blossom into a legit rotation player almost overnight. Meanwhile, the 2010 SEC Defensive Player of the Year ( Varnado ) and the 2011 ACC Defensive Player of the Year ( Singleton ) should be on this roster giving us a young defensive presence. Add those two with Teague, and we probably COULD create some sort of defensive identity with this squad.

Instead, we're searching through the garbage can to find the "blue collar guys" that we need.

As always, I'm an UNCONDITIONAL fan of the Atlanta Hawks. Nothing this dumb azz management group or GM will turn me away from them or from going to games. That's not going to stop me from criticizing moves that I think won't help us though.

I'll say it again. If they're not serious about trying to improve this team to get to the next level, GET OUT THE F'IN GAME!!

Edited June 29, 2011 by northcyde

[Diesel]

Breifly,

Had they not resigned Marvin a few years ago would you have applauded them or would it be another dumb move by mngment?

I say that to say this. We all can talk about what we didn't do. What we didn't do is not that big because we can only use hindsight or guesswork to tell what would have happened. Let's say we did bring in Avery Johnson and we failed to reach the playoffs.

Let's say we did keep the pick and he never played?

Let's say we never traded Bibby and we were swept again by the Magic.

Let's say we did spend money to bring in Brenden Heywood last summer and he came here and flundered.

I noticed that you failed to say we passed on the Teague for Thompson trade.

The thing is that when you have a hindsight rant, you always paint the picture with the best possible outcome. That's not neccessarily the case though.

[niremetal]

Breifly,

Had they not resigned Marvin a few years ago would you have applauded them or would it be another dumb move by mngment?

I say that to say this. We all can talk about what we didn't do. What we didn't do is not that big because we can only use hindsight or guesswork to tell what would have happened. Let's say we did bring in Avery Johnson and we failed to reach the playoffs.

Let's say we did keep the pick and he never played?

Let's say we never traded Bibby and we were swept again by the Magic.

Let's say we did spend money to bring in Brenden Heywood last summer and he came here and flundered.

I noticed that you failed to say we passed on the Teague for Thompson trade.

The thing is that when you have a hindsight rant, you always paint the picture with the best possible outcome. That's not neccessarily the case though.

Gotta say, D, you've been on fire these past few weeks. Great post.

[coachx]

If they're not serious about trying to improve this team to get to the next level, GET OUT THE F'IN GAME!!

Under your "hostile" interpretation of being serious about winning there are only 5 teams who qualify. Those are the 5 teams who pay luxury tax based on my interpretation of your complaints......since the only way to resolve most your complaints is to get into luxury tax land.

It looks like luxury tax is about to be a thing of the past and all teams will have a "flex cap" of $62 mill that is truely more like a hard cap. From what I hear the only exceptions to exceed the $62 mill propsed "flex cap" is to sign minimum salaried veterans (like D. Wilkens and J. Collins) to fill out the minimum roster requirements or fill in for an injured player.

The playing field is about to be leveled it appears.............good thing Cuban got his ring before they did away with the lucury tax. He has probably spent more money in luxury tax then the rest of the league has combined.

If this is going to go down the "Big 3" in Miami will broken up very soon.

Edited June 29, 2011 by coachx

[MaceCase]

Not really seeing consistency out of you North. You argued not too long ago that the team couldn't let JJ go and bank on the potential of younger prospects to develop and replace his production but now you are ranting about the potential of draft picks and prospects to improve this team? Almost as puzzling as you despising Jamal's game from the moment he got to the Hawks but then clamoring over the lesser version of him that was traded.

[AHF]

LOL . . had to borrow that opening line from Public Enemy's "Prophets of Rage".

Props for the Public Enemy reference!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Breifly,

Had they not resigned Marvin a few years ago would you have applauded them or would it be another dumb move by mngment?

I say that to say this. We all can talk about what we didn't do. What we didn't do is not that big because we can only use hindsight or guesswork to tell what would have happened. Let's say we did bring in Avery Johnson and we failed to reach the playoffs.

Let's say we did keep the pick and he never played?

Let's say we never traded Bibby and we were swept again by the Magic.

Let's say we did spend money to bring in Brenden Heywood last summer and he came here and flundered.

I noticed that you failed to say we passed on the Teague for Thompson trade.

The thing is that when you have a hindsight rant, you always paint the picture with the best possible outcome. That's not neccessarily the case though.

With the Marvin deal, I said back then that to secure him to a deal, they had to sign him to 5yrs - 40 mill. And they did a little less than that. I wasn't mad at the Marvin deal at the time. If Marvin was producing anywhere near what he was 3 years ago, we'd be OK. But he essentially let Flip and Jamal take shots and minutes away from him.

The best possible outcome? Come on man.

We did the bare minimum last year, outside of re-signing JJ. Signed a bare minimum coach. Did nothing to upgrade the frontline. But when the ish hits the fan, everyone wants to blame JJ for not being a superstar, or blame Smith or Horford for not playing big enough against all competition. God forbid this team surround those guys with people who can help them. I mean, we're so brainwashed around here, that we value a scrub like Jason Collins, who does NOTHING but play good position defense against one guy. He's praised for guarding Dwight, even though Dwight DOMINATED THE HAWKS, with the exception of one game in which his team stepped up, and he could basically take the night off. But his services were basically useless against Noah, because Noah doesn't demand the ball offensively. All Noah does is run to the rim and grab passes for lay-ups or rebounds on both ends of the floor. Something Collins can't do. Which is why the dude only played a little over 50 minutes in 6 games vs the Bulls. He scored 13 points and grabbed 6 rebounds during those minutes.

But that's the guy people want back on the roster?

And that's why the other thread that you have up illustrates exactly what I'm talking about. You have Benson and Lighty as guys that will HAVE to play decent minutes next year, if the Hawks don't make a trade or obtain a decent player in free agency. What 2nd round playoff team last year has 2 undrafted free agents getting decent time for them? The fact that you have Benson, Rolle, Twin, and Lighty penciled in as 11 of the 12 guys on our roster next year, is scary as hell . . and not in a good way. None of those guys would play on most of the other playoff level teams. Some of them wouldn't even be dressed out.

Memphis is a great illustration on how those late 1st round picks can help a ballclub.

- Darrell Arthur ( 27th pick )

- Grevius Vasquez ( 28th pick )

- Sam Young ( 36th pick )

Those are "glue guys" for Memphis, along with the defensive minded Tony Allen ( who was the 25th pick in 2004 ). But for us, guys like Benson and Lighty may become the 8th and 9th man in the rotation? The hope for our bench lies in how well Hinrich or Teague plays, and if Benson can immediately establish himself as a decent frontline player. It'll be interesting to see who the Hawks add to this team, with the new CBA looming over their heads, and them possibly having to pay luxury tax under a new agreement.

No Diesel . . . what I talk about is nowhere near the "best possible outcome". It's simply not the "bottom of the barrel" crap that the ASG tries to sell us on as viable.

- the undersized but good defending and rebounding PF was there last year in Varnado

- the defensive and athletic SF was there this year in Singleton

- if we didn't take Varnado, the defensive and athletic hybrid 3/4 was there in Faried

- the possible offensive replacement to Jamal was already on the team in "that dude in Washington"

Instead, we get the "great" Kirk Hinrich . . and NONE of those guys I just listed above are even in the mix.

Yeah, it's hindsight. And we can't do anything about it. But don't act like this management group and the GM has us in the right direction, because they don't. My trust is in JJ, Smith, and Horford. They're the guys who are going to have to get it done BY THEMSELVES, because the management sure isn't going to help them.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Not really seeing consistency out of you North. You argued not too long ago that the team couldn't let JJ go and bank on the potential of younger prospects to develop and replace his production but now you are ranting about the potential of draft picks and prospects to improve this team? Almost as puzzling as you despising Jamal's game from the moment he got to the Hawks but then clamoring over the lesser version of him that was traded.

Crawful . . . in that instance, I'm talking about the STAR OF THE TEAM. Not replacing scrubs with better and younger talent.

I'm talking about keeping JJ + adding the younger prospects to develop around them. Not losing the dang star of the team, and having the younger prospects try to replace his production. Teams that do that are bound for the lottery. Teams that keep the star players intact, but surround them with developing young players, tend to prosper in the future.

And my stance on Jamal is not puzzling at all. If we'd kept Acie and Speedy around for one more year, both fall off the books and we would've had more cap space to work with. Jamal had a 9 year track record of being one of the most inconsistent players in the league, before he came to the Hawks. That's why I didn't like the trade. I wanted Andre Miller here. Jamal had a career year in 09 - 10, playing alongside JJ and Bibby. This past season, he reverted back to being the normal Jamal Crawford.

His possible replacement showed last year that he had the same style of game as Jamal, but with better passing ability. Most important, we'd keep JJ AND have that player to play alongside him at times.

Of course, I value JJ more than most Hawk fans . . . who think that JJ is the 3rd best player on the team.

[Diesel]

With the Marvin deal, I said back then that to secure him to a deal, they had to sign him to 5yrs - 40 mill. And they did a little less than that. I wasn't mad at the Marvin deal at the time. If Marvin was producing anywhere near what he was 3 years ago, we'd be OK. But he essentially let Flip and Jamal take shots and minutes away from him.

The best possible outcome? Come on man.

We did the bare minimum last year, outside of re-signing JJ. Signed a bare minimum coach. Did nothing to upgrade the frontline. But when the ish hits the fan, everyone wants to blame JJ for not being a superstar, or blame Smith or Horford for not playing big enough against all competition. God forbid this team surround those guys with people who can help them. I mean, we're so brainwashed around here, that we value a scrub like Jason Collins, who does NOTHING but play good position defense against one guy. He's praised for guarding Dwight, even though Dwight DOMINATED THE HAWKS, with the exception of one game in which his team stepped up, and he could basically take the night off. But his services were basically useless against Noah, because Noah doesn't demand the ball offensively. All Noah does is run to the rim and grab passes for lay-ups or rebounds on both ends of the floor. Something Collins can't do. Which is why the dude only played a little over 50 minutes in 6 games vs the Bulls. He scored 13 points and grabbed 6 rebounds during those minutes.

But that's the guy people want back on the roster?

And that's why the other thread that you have up illustrates exactly what I'm talking about. You have Benson and Lighty as guys that will HAVE to play decent minutes next year, if the Hawks don't make a trade or obtain a decent player in free agency. What 2nd round playoff team last year has 2 undrafted free agents getting decent time for them? The fact that you have Benson, Rolle, Twin, and Lighty penciled in as 11 of the 12 guys on our roster next year, is scary as hell . . and not in a good way. None of those guys would play on most of the other playoff level teams. Some of them wouldn't even be dressed out.

Memphis is a great illustration on how those late 1st round picks can help a ballclub.

- Darrell Arthur ( 27th pick )

- Grevius Vasquez ( 28th pick )

- Sam Young ( 36th pick )

Those are "glue guys" for Memphis, along with the defensive minded Tony Allen ( who was the 25th pick in 2004 ). But for us, guys like Benson and Lighty may become the 8th and 9th man in the rotation? The hope for our bench lies in how well Hinrich or Teague plays, and if Benson can immediately establish himself as a decent frontline player. It'll be interesting to see who the Hawks add to this team, with the new CBA looming over their heads, and them possibly having to pay luxury tax under a new agreement.

No Diesel . . . what I talk about is nowhere near the "best possible outcome". It's simply not the "bottom of the barrel" crap that the ASG tries to sell us on as viable.

- the undersized but good defending and rebounding PF was there last year in Varnado

- the defensive and athletic SF was there this year in Singleton

- if we didn't take Varnado, the defensive and athletic hybrid 3/4 was there in Faried

- the possible offensive replacement to Jamal was already on the team in "that dude in Washington"

Instead, we get the "great" Kirk Hinrich . . and NONE of those guys I just listed above are even in the mix.

Yeah, it's hindsight. And we can't do anything about it. But don't act like this management group and the GM has us in the right direction, because they don't. My trust is in JJ, Smith, and Horford. They're the guys who are going to have to get it done BY THEMSELVES, because the management sure isn't going to help them.

A few things.

First off...

I have lighty making the team at all because I like him, not because we need him. Secondly. Benson.. Same deal. In fact, these guys represent our future and they may not play 1 minute if we're seeking to win now. However, it's good to have those guys on the roster.

Secondly. OKC could afford to experiment and play late first and second rounders... Why... Because they were a young team who were built from the ground up. You can say the same about Smoove and Teagu.e The difference between them and us is that them... got Durant. We got Marvin. Then got Westbrook. We got Shelden. When they were in the lottery, they made the best of thier lottery picks... although KD was just handed to them. Having a lottery pick that's top 3 is a gift from Stern. If your team messes that up, then that's just bad building. Welp, we missed the boat with Marvin. Blame ASG for that.

However, to say that they have run this team without considering the product or by saying on the cheap is ludicrus. Every core player we have has been reuped. All at a good price. We have not failed to keep a player that produces.

When you answered my Marvin question, you certainly sounded like you understood where I was going but you wanted to avoid the implication. Well, sometimes, you do f--- up... and no amount of money can fix a really good f--- up. We're not the Lakers and will have somebody give us Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown. We're not the Pistons and will have somebody give us Rasheed (the final peice of the puzzle) for draft picks. We're not the Mavericks and have an owner who says here's the money just get her done.. year after year until we find somebody that can win.

again, do you want us to be like the Fla Marlins... Just buy a championship? That hasn't worked so well in Basketball. With that.. I turn you to the Knicks and the Blazers. They are proof that unlimited spending will not always guarantee you a championship. This game requires smart moves at the right time and sometimes Luck. Therefore, I can't be mad at the owners for making money moves just to make money moves.

[MaceCase]

Crawful . . . in that instance, I'm talking about the STAR OF THE TEAM. Not replacing scrubs with better and younger talent.

I'm talking about keeping JJ + adding the younger prospects to develop around them. Not losing the dang star of the team, and having the younger prospects try to replace his production. Teams that do that are bound for the lottery. Teams that keep the star players intact, but surround them with developing young players, tend to prosper in the future.

And my stance on Jamal is not puzzling at all. If we'd kept Acie and Speedy around for one more year, both fall off the books and we would've had more cap space to work with. Jamal had a 9 year track record of being one of the most inconsistent players in the league, before he came to the Hawks. That's why I didn't like the trade. I wanted Andre Miller here. Jamal had a career year in 09 - 10, playing alongside JJ and Bibby. This past season, he reverted back to being the normal Jamal Crawford.

His possible replacement showed last year that he had the same style of game as Jamal, but with better passing ability. Most important, we'd keep JJ AND have that player to play alongside him at times.

Of course, I value JJ more than most Hawk fans . . . who think that JJ is the 3rd best player on the team.

Well here's the problem that I'm seeing, you want young guys over the vet scrubs but you are also making distinctions between the level of talent or potential of the young guys that we do have (Benson) and saying that we could of had someone better (Varnado). If that's your thinking, that there is a definitive hierarchy for the late drafted prospects, then doesn't the same theory hold true that we could of acquired higher potential and productive prospects had JJ left? But I'll digress from that hypothetical and address another that you brought up... Considering that Varnado was playing in Italy last season, did the Hawks and the Heat really miss out on him? Would the team really be more formidable with him and are you telling me before hand that you know Singleton will have a more productive NBA career than Benson or Lighty before they've even told the equipment manager their jersey sizes?

It really shouldn't be too hard to figure that a supposed contending team does not sign a 29 year old to a 6 year 120 million dollar contract and then hitch their wagons to 3 late first rounders and an early 2nd rounder and say "there's your help". We just saw two Finals' teams sport only one guy underneath the age of 26 and that was Chalmers who's had 2 years of exp and plenty of minutes already. In fact what champion in the last decade has been overly reliant on young guys outside of their core? Perk and Rondo? Well they had plenty of PT on bad Boston teams, where are we getting all of these guys minutes to learn the NBA game? Sounds mighty unrealistic. 1 or 2 guys sure, but 4? Doesn't seem plausible.

Now as to your usual Jamal hate.....I'm not seeing consistency again. You are chastising the asg for selling the 31st pick but saying that they should of held on to two nonfactors and allowed their contracts to expire rather than acquire the future 6th man of the year that helped lead the Hawks to their 4th best wins record.....ever. Come on now. I'm sure even you can see the hypocrisy of that statement and the ripple effects it would have had on the merits of future signings. Gotta agree with D on your best case scenario, hindsight armchair QBing, fortune telling rant here.

Jamal Crawford has had a career TS% of .526, assist rate of 21.3 and Turnover rate of 12.4 yet his Danny Devito (Twins reference) demonstrated a TS% of .456 and a superior assist rate of 20.5 and turnover rate of 12.9.....again, this is the guy that we know for certain would have been better for Joe down the line......a lesser Jamal? Well at least your downplaying of Jamal is consistent but this thread isn't.

[KB21]

Well here's the problem that I'm seeing, you want young guys over the vet scrubs but you are also making distinctions between the level of talent or potential of the young guys that we do have (Benson) and saying that we could of had someone better (Varnado). If that's your thinking, that there is a definitive hierarchy for the late drafted prospects, then doesn't the same theory hold true that we could of acquired higher potential and productive prospects had JJ left? But I'll digress from that hypothetical and address another that you brought up... Considering that Varnado was playing in Italy last season, did the Hawks and the Heat really miss out on him? Would the team really be more formidable with him and are you telling me before hand that you know Singleton will have a more productive NBA career than Benson or Lighty before they've even told the equipment manager their jersey sizes?

It really shouldn't be too hard to figure that a supposed contending team does not sign a 29 year old to a 6 year 120 million dollar contract and then hitch their wagons to 3 late first rounders and an early 2nd rounder and say "there's your help". We just saw two Finals' teams sport only one guy underneath the age of 26 and that was Chalmers who's had 2 years of exp and plenty of minutes already. In fact what champion in the last decade has been overly reliant on young guys outside of their core? Perk and Rondo? Well they had plenty of PT on bad Boston teams, where are we getting all of these guys minutes to learn the NBA game? Sounds mighty unrealistic. 1 or 2 guys sure, but 4? Doesn't seem plausible.

Now as to your usual Jamal hate.....I'm not seeing consistency again. You are chastising the asg for selling the 31st pick but saying that they should of held on to two nonfactors and allowed their contracts to expire rather than acquire the future 6th man of the year that helped lead the Hawks to their 4th best wins record.....ever. Come on now. I'm sure even you can see the hypocrisy of that statement and the ripple effects it would have had on the merits of future signings. Gotta agree with D on your best case scenario, hindsight armchair QBing, fortune telling rant here.

Jamal Crawford has had a career TS% of .526, assist rate of 21.3 and Turnover rate of 12.4 yet his Danny Devito (Twins reference) demonstrated a TS% of .456 and a superior assist rate of 20.5 and turnover rate of 12.9.....again, this is the guy that we know for certain would have been better for Joe down the line......a lesser Jamal? Well at least your downplaying of Jamal is consistent but this thread isn't.

The fact that Jarvis Varnado is playing in Italy and not in the NBA shows me that there is a big problem that is league wide and not just with the Hawks. Teams are simply not willing to take a non guaranteed salary player like Varnado and fill a roster spot with him. The would rather fill that spot with a so called veteran player because there is this mindset that veterans are always better than rookies or young players. Think about it. Josh Powell is in the NBA, and Jarvis Varnado is playing overseas right now.

[MaceCase]

The fact that Jarvis Varnado is playing in Italy and not in the NBA shows me that there is a big problem that is league wide and not just with the Hawks. Teams are simply not willing to take a non guaranteed salary player like Varnado and fill a roster spot with him. The would rather fill that spot with a so called veteran player because there is this mindset that veterans are always better than rookies or young players. Think about it. Josh Powell is in the NBA, and Jarvis Varnado is playing overseas right now.

And all of this is based on what? What he did in college? The NBA and it'ssister leagues are filled with plenty of players that had short or long productive seasons in school but couldn't quite make the jump or translate their games to the pros. It's not news or a failure of the system but rather just GMs following the probabilities. A vet that has managed to stay many years in the NBA has at least demonstrated the ability to perform a specific role or roles on the NBA level. Whether they fail to do so is still at a lower probability than depending on a lowly rated young guy that doesn't even know yet what they can or can't do well in the NBA if they even can. It happens and it will continue to happen, even the Spurs with their vaunted scouting has produced some duds so we all can if and but all summer and throw out advanced statistics but this is the way of the world.

[Vol4ever]

LOL . . had to borrow that opening line from Public Enemy's "Prophets of Rage". And while the Hawks are persecuted, it's mainly because of this dumb azz management group and GM that can't seem to get things right. Despite the playoff "success", this team is in dire straights, because we were basically an average to below average team for most of the season. Even our coach was worried about if we could just "flip the switch" when playoff time came around. Fortunately, guys like JJ, Jamal ( in the Orlando series ), Teague ( in the Bulls series ), and Josh, Zaza, and Hinrich in spot situations, DID flip the switch. Next season though, we can't rely on that switch being flipped. Otherwise, we may end up like the Lakers, who thought they could flip it, but didn't have the personnel ( especially off the bench ) to battle the elite level teams.

My negativity these days really didn't start until the Hawks started doing the bare minimum to improve this team. The players, when they do their jobs, still get my support. I've been a critic of Jeff Teague and his passive play, but I'll definitely get behind him if he plays with the same aggressiveness he showed in the Chicago series.

I remember you and I ( referring to Hotlanta ) damn near begging this team to add frontcourt help before the 2009 season, only for them to add Jason Collins and Joe Smith. We both knew that rebounding was a major issue with this team. 2 years later, that's still the case, because our reserve big men are horrible. But last summer did it for me concerning Sund and the ASG. As some call it . . it brought me to the "dark side". The only thing they did to stabilize us for the future, was re-sign JJ . . . and even that may be a de-stabilizer because of his contract.

- didn't upgrade in coach

- didn't use the #31 last year

- didn't use the TPE they got from the Childress trade

- didn't add a decent frontline player

- added Collins, Powell, and Etan, and tried to pass them off like all 3 would help us

- traded for an aging and average PG that has never done anything, and gave up young assets to bring him in

Instead of the Hawks having three 1st round draft picks and a very high 2nd round pick to help build for the future . . . we have one of those guys here ( Teague ) . . and it took an act of God just to see if he could be trusted with the starters.

Some of you can look over the errors of the ASG/Sund this past year and not make a big deal out of it, simply because we won two 2nd round games. But this was the time to show if we were SERIOUS about getting to that next level, or if we were just playing around. The initial acquisition of those two 1st round picks gave an indication that the ASG/Sund were serious about improving this team from top to bottom. But they sell the pick for money almost as fast as we acquired it. They proved right there what their mindset was. After the JJ signing, I thought things may have been different . . then they go shopping at the Dollar General store, and try to pass those players off as guys who can help us.

So to me, either these guys need to get SERIOUS about this ish, or get out the F'in game.

It's that simple to me.

And it's funny how LD/Sund want to add "Blue Collar Players" all of a sudden, seeing how the Bulls roughed us up. Had they'd kept that damn draft pick, we could've added Singleton or Faried ( two guys who are definitely "blue collar" ) to the mix. But as usual the past few years, we're looking for the lesser players to blossom into the best possible scenario. It's incredible that we need a Keith Benson to blossom into a legit rotation player almost overnight. Meanwhile, the 2010 SEC Defensive Player of the Year ( Varnado ) and the 2011 ACC Defensive Player of the Year ( Singleton ) should be on this roster giving us a young defensive presence. Add those two with Teague, and we probably COULD create some sort of defensive identity with this squad.

Instead, we're searching through the garbage can to find the "blue collar guys" that we need.

As always, I'm an UNCONDITIONAL fan of the Atlanta Hawks. Nothing this dumb azz management group or GM will turn me away from them or from going to games. That's not going to stop me from criticizing moves that I think won't help us though.

I'll say it again. If they're not serious about trying to improve this team to get to the next level, GET OUT THE F'IN GAME!!

You said this much better than I could..............but I agree 1,000%.

[KB21]

And all of this is based on what? What he did in college? The NBA and it'ssister leagues are filled with plenty of players that had short or long productive seasons in school but couldn't quite make the jump or translate their games to the pros. It's not news or a failure of the system but rather just GMs following the probabilities. A vet that has managed to stay many years in the NBA has at least demonstrated the ability to perform a specific role or roles on the NBA level. Whether they fail to do so is still at a lower probability than depending on a lowly rated young guy that doesn't even know yet what they can or can't do well in the NBA if they even can. It happens and it will continue to happen, even the Spurs with their vaunted scouting has produced some duds so we all can if and but all summer and throw out advanced statistics but this is the way of the world.

So what role has Josh Powell proven than he can play, other than completely sucking at everything he does on the floor and being the worst player in the NBA currently?

[coachx]

Crawful . . . in that instance, I'm talking about the STAR OF THE TEAM. Not replacing scrubs with better and younger talent.

I'm talking about keeping JJ + adding the younger prospects to develop around them. Not losing the dang star of the team, and having the younger prospects try to replace his production. Teams that do that are bound for the lottery. Teams that keep the star players intact, but surround them with developing young players, tend to prosper in the future.

And my stance on Jamal is not puzzling at all. If we'd kept Acie and Speedy around for one more year, both fall off the books and we would've had more cap space to work with. Jamal had a 9 year track record of being one of the most inconsistent players in the league, before he came to the Hawks. That's why I didn't like the trade. I wanted Andre Miller here. Jamal had a career year in 09 - 10, playing alongside JJ and Bibby. This past season, he reverted back to being the normal Jamal Crawford.

His possible replacement showed last year that he had the same style of game as Jamal, but with better passing ability. Most important, we'd keep JJ AND have that player to play alongside him at times.

Of course, I value JJ more than most Hawk fans . . . who think that JJ is the 3rd best player on the team.

So if I'm reading this right your entire rant and thread is b/c we traded JC2/18th pick for Hinrich ?

Is that really all this ranting is about ?

[lethalweapon3]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

~lw3

[MaceCase]

So what role has Josh Powell proven than he can play, other than completely sucking at everything he does on the floor and being the worst player in the NBA currently?

Well Varnado's career is tracking exactly the same as Powell's with his start in a lower tier Italian league. There's our hope then, depending on the future Powell to make the NBA someday and save us. We really really really should make Powell our focus for the rest of the decade and prop up a guy that Riley preferred Juwan Howard over even. We must pout and cry over a hypothetical and resort to hyperbole because why? We really got nothing else sensible to do.

[AHF]

The good news on Varnado is that we can sign him when FA opens, right? At least there we can argue we didn't miss out on anything. With someone like Landry Fields that we could have drafted had we not sold our pick, the door is closed.

[High5]

I love that "we may end up like the Lakers" is now being viewed as a negative on Hawksquawk.

[KB21]

The good news on Varnado is that we can sign him when FA opens, right? At least there we can argue we didn't miss out on anything. With someone like Landry Fields that we could have drafted had we not sold our pick, the door is closed.

The Heat tendered Varnado a contract, so they retain his draft rights.