Hoopshype ranks the coaches...Popovich is tops but zld gets high marks

[MaceCase]

BK was an idiot.

He also gave Woody his first (only) head coaching job.

Guess NineOh is right.

And as to North, would JJ playing a career low MPG not even including games missed due to injury have anything to do with him finally being effective in the playoffs or will you hold on to Woody's vaunted regular season records? After all, that is all that matters right? Finishing a season with 53 wins rather than finishing a postseason off as the road team in 6 games and winning the first second round games since Lenny Wilkens was prowling the sidelines is far greater distinction for a coach.

Edited July 28, 2011 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[AHF]

No one wants to hire him? Several teams have looked Woody's way. Not Woody's fault NBA GM's are idiots. Good lord, these are the same people who made Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy, and Gilbert Arenas gazillionaires.

I think Tech would have been a great place for Woody. I guarantee he would have been a huge upgrade of Hewitt.

I heard the Lakers wanted him but he turned them down so he could interview with the 17 win T-Wolves. Highly in demand.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

BK was an idiot.

He also gave Woody his first (only) head coaching job.

Guess NineOh is right.

And as to North, would JJ playing a career low MPG not even including games missed due to injury have anything to do with him finally being effective in the playoffs or will you hold on to Woody's vaunted regular season records? After all, that is all that matters right? Finishing a season with 53 wins rather than finishing a postseason off as the road team in 6 games and winning the first second round games since Lenny Wilkens was prowling the sidelines is far greater distinction for a coach.

The bottom line is that those two 2nd round victories had very little to do with coaching, and more to do with tremendous shotmaking by JJ. Drew didn't make some great tactical decision in those games that won it for us. IF he did, I'll gladly give him credit for it. NO . . . those games were won because of JJ, Jamal, and Teague in Game 1 . . and JJ, Smith, and Horford in Game 4.

LOL . . so the 10 full games that he missed due to injury didn't aid in him being fresh? How about the fact that this team would routinely get blown out ( especially after Jan 1st )? Did that lead to JJ's reduced minutes too?

You act like Drew had some sort of master plan to keep his minutes down. And insert who into the game to take his place? Mo Evans? Damien? It's not like Drew was giving Teague major run throughout the season. Jamal was essentially our backup PG on most nights, and JJ switched from playing SG to SF.

The truth is that JJ was on track to easily play at least 37 - 38 minutes a night, if this team wouldn't have gotten routinely blown out during the season. I'm sure the 300 minutes less he played during the regular season did help him be more fresh during the playoffs. But to credit Drew for that reduction of minutes, isn't looking at the real reasons why he played less minutes.

Edited July 29, 2011 by northcyde

[MaceCase]

Except your analysis is wrong, North, dead wrong or at least a poor attempt at revisionist history in order to paint Drew in a negative light. You don't think it's a tactical if not strategic decision by a coach to reduce a players minutes especially when it's no mystery that a better rested player is a more effective player? It's not like Drew made any indication of doing so either.

That article is dated post Jan 1st, btw. Also, just so we are clear, I said minutes per game so as to not give you that easy cop out with games missed due to injury, I'm sure I even mentioned that in my original post but alas.

In fact let's have a look at JJ's minutes by month in 2010-2011

October: 35.5

November: 35.5

December: 37.9 (the outlier that you want to use to prognosticate the rest of his season on I'm assuming)

January: 36.6

February: 34.8

March: 36.4

April: 29.9

Pre All Star 36.1 mpg

Post All Star 34.3 mpg

Yup, if not for the 40 blowouts against us and his injury he most definitely would have played his Atlanta average of 40mpg rather than posting a rate below even his career average. I'm sure everything else in the world had more to do with Joe playing a career low minutes per game in Atlanta than anything Drew did. In fact it would have been much more preferable had the team won 50 games and gotten swept in the 1st round than Drew pretending as if he had a plan to rest Joe more.

[AHF]

The bottom line is that those two 2nd round victories had very little to do with coaching, and more to do with tremendous shotmaking by JJ. Drew didn't make some great tactical decision in those games that won it for us. IF he did, I'll gladly give him credit for it. NO . . . those games were won because of JJ, Jamal, and Teague in Game 1 . . and JJ, Smith, and Horford in Game 4.

LOL . . so the 10 full games that he missed due to injury didn't aid in him being fresh? How about the fact that this team would routinely get blown out ( especially after Jan 1st )? Did that lead to JJ's reduced minutes too?

You act like Drew had some sort of master plan to keep his minutes down. And insert who into the game to take his place? Mo Evans? Damien? It's not like Drew was giving Teague major run throughout the season. Jamal was essentially our backup PG on most nights, and JJ switched from playing SG to SF.

The truth is that JJ was on track to easily play at least 37 - 38 minutes a night, if this team wouldn't have gotten routinely blown out during the season. I'm sure the 300 minutes less he played during the regular season did help him be more fresh during the playoffs. But to credit Drew for that reduction of minutes, isn't looking at the real reasons why he played less minutes.

There is plenty to criticize with Drew's regular season last year. Woody hit a huge FAIL button for NBA playoff tactics.

For anyone who thinks differently, I offer this challenge. Find me a coach who has coached 8 or more playoff losses and has a worse average margin of loss in the playoffs in their career.

Woodson lost 18 playoff games in his career. His teams lost by an average of

2007-08 Average Playoff Loss: 25.3 ppg

2008-09 Average Playoff Loss: 20.3 ppg

2009-10 Average Playoff Loss: 20 ppg

Mike Woodson Career Average Playoff Loss: 21.3 ppg

You don't do that while making competent adjustments and competent strategic decisions.

For reference to another great Atlanta coach:

Bob Weiss Career Average Playoff Loss: 13.1 ppg

[AHawks89]

I think the playoffs show all of the difference between the coaches. One coach is not scared to make adjustments when needed, the other failed to make adjustments; however, I think it's to early to compare the coaches. I think Larry Drew coached better than Woody from what I've seen so far, and I think Larry Drew will be the better coach, along with a great coaching career ahead of him.

Can't forget that last year was his rookie year as the head coach. Let's see what he pans out this year.

Edited July 29, 2011 by AHawks89

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Except your analysis is wrong, North, dead wrong or at least a poor attempt at revisionist history in order to paint Drew in a negative light. You don't think it's a tactical if not strategic decision by a coach to reduce a players minutes especially when it's no mystery that a better rested player is a more effective player? It's not like Drew made any indication of doing so either.

That article is dated post Jan 1st, btw. Also, just so we are clear, I said minutes per game so as to not give you that easy cop out with games missed due to injury, I'm sure I even mentioned that in my original post but alas.

In fact let's have a look at JJ's minutes by month in 2010-2011

October: 35.5

November: 35.5

December: 37.9 (the outlier that you want to use to prognosticate the rest of his season on I'm assuming)

January: 36.6

February: 34.8

March: 36.4

April: 29.9

Pre All Star 36.1 mpg

Post All Star 34.3 mpg

Yup, if not for the 40 blowouts against us and his injury he most definitely would have played his Atlanta average of 40mpg rather than posting a rate below even his career average. I'm sure everything else in the world had more to do with Joe playing a career low minutes per game in Atlanta than anything Drew did. In fact it would have been much more preferable had the team won 50 games and gotten swept in the 1st round than Drew pretending as if he had a plan to rest Joe more.

I think it's hilarious that in the picture in that column that JJ is on ( playing Sacramento ) . . . he played 41 minutes that game. Then he played 45 minutes the next game in an OT game vs Miami. Then only logged 30 minutes in that New Orleans beatdown we took right after the Miami win.

That's what I'm talking about. In the normal course of a game, JJ was still logging close to 40 minutes per game. If a game was close, JJ was getting major minutes. If we were winning by a larger margin or getting the brakes beat off of us, JJ got his rest. It just so happened that the 2009 - 10 Hawks didn't suffer a lot of regular season beatdowns, so JJ played a lot more minutes. And in that 2009 - 10 season, the reason why games stayed closer, was because the bench would routinely blow leads that the starters made, forcing Woody to bring his main guys back in. In 2010 - 11, the entire squad may have played bad, making it no need to put the starters back in the game because the game was already over.

Drew said a lot of things last year that he didn't necessarily follow up on. When push came to shove, he played JJ major minutes to win games.

[MaceCase]

So Joe played only 1 month above 37mpg but I'm to believe your anecdotal evidence above all that he in fact would have played 37-38 minutes all season long had the team only somehow managed to be in the playoff race or competitive in even half of it's games.....oh wait.

Drew hasn't been a Godsend but in only his rookie season he's shown more ability than Mr. Super Resume. Funny you want to throw stats out there and say that people are being anecdotal about Drew's praises but when confronted with stats about Joe playing a full 3 minutes less per game over an entire season than even his previous low and it's because the team was suddenly getting blown out every third game.

Edited July 29, 2011 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[niremetal]

Detroit turned Woody down too. And he had a history there. Now it's Minny or nothing. And I'm thinking even Minny isn't stupid enough to hire him.

Sorry, but it's just sad northcyde. You're pretty intelligent when you post about most stuff, but you, Nineoh, and a few other folks around here are the only people left in the world who seem to think that Woody was a decent coach. The Hawks' performance in the '10 playoffs left no doubt in the minds of most people. A banged up team that couldn't have won 20 games during the regular season stretched the Hawks to 7 games because it took Woody 3 humiliating losses to realize that the switching defense wasn't working. Then came the train wreck of the Orlando series, where Woody was the only person in the known universe who didn't seem to get that shutting down Howard was not the key to stopping Orlando's offense, and where Woody had no Plan B for when the JJ/Jamal ISOs broke down. Woody's inability to make adjustments was on display for all the world to see. How you didn't see it, I'll never know.

Edited July 30, 2011 by niremetal

[Guest]

Its beyond me how anyone could defend either Woody or LD. They both suck(ed) and this team would be much better off if neither was ever involved.

[NineOhTheRino]

We continue to attribute the 2010 Hawks porous defense and lack of offense in that Orlando series to Woody being a bad coach. It does not add up guys. The 53-win regular season should have been enough to convince mgmt and fans that Woody was a capable coach. It's true that the Magic embarrassed the Hawks, but how much of that should be attributed to Woody?

Joe Johnson numbers games 1 through 4:

0.364 / 10 pts

0.313 / 19

0.200 / 08

0.333 / 14

With Joe being injured (or in a horrible slump), Bibby being a liability on defense, and Orlando's personnel being key factors, I do not understand how anyone can use that series to draw a conclusion on Woody.

Nope! I do not like dem apples.

I'll rest my case with this:

Lawrence Frank?

I could be wrong, but I think he coached a team that ended up with the worst record in league history.

smh at Joe D picking Frank over Woody.

This is why I think Woody not having a Job has more to do with his communication skills and less to do with his ability to coach. He's just being outshined by more polished speakers like Mark Jackson and Frank.

Edited August 1, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[AHF]

We continue to attribute the 2010 Hawks porous defense and lack of offense in that Orlando series to Woody being a bad coach. It does not add up guys. The 53-win regular season should have been enough to convince mgmt and fans that Woody was a capable coach. It's true that the Magic embarrassed the Hawks, but how much of that should be attributed to Woody?

Joe Johnson numbers games 1 through 4:

0.364 / 10 pts

0.313 / 19

0.200 / 08

0.333 / 14

With Joe being injured (or in a horrible slump), Bibby being a liability on defense, and Orlando's personnel being key factors, I do not understand how anyone can use that series to draw a conclusion on Woody.

Nope! I do not like dem apples.

As I said earlier, find me any coach in NBA history that has 8 or more playoff losses and a worse average margin of loss over their career than Mike Woodson.

I think Woodson had one regular season where his team met expectations and was a fundamentally flawed coach. I see his total inability to strategically adjust in the playoffs reflected in his historically bad average margin of loss. Has there every been anyone with worse numbers? (I'm asking because I don't know of anyone but realize there have been some terrible coaches in this league so it is surely possible).

I'll rest my case with this:

Lawrence Frank?

I could be wrong, but I think he coached a team that ended up with the worst record in league history.

Lawrence Frank averages an 11.5 average margin of loss in the playoffs so Woody's status as potential #1 in career playoff margin of loss isn't going to be challenged by Frank even if he leads the Pistons to the playoffs and gets swept by an average margin of 40 points this year.

As an aside, here are the worst full seasons by Woody and Frank:

Frank's worst full season: 34-48

Career Record: 225 - 241

Woody's worst full season: 13 - 69

Career Record: 206 - 286

Notably, it wasn't until Woody's 4th season coaching the Hawks that he had a record better than Frank's career worst.

Edited August 1, 2011 by AHF

[NineOhTheRino]

As I said earlier, find me any coach in NBA history that has 8 or more playoff losses and a worse average margin of loss over their career than Mike Woodson.

I think Woodson had one regular season where his team met expectations and was a fundamentally flawed coach. I see his total inability to strategically adjust in the playoffs reflected in his historically bad average margin of loss. Has there every been anyone with worse numbers? (I'm asking because I don't know of anyone but realize there have been some terrible coaches in this league so it is surely possible).

Cause versus effect. Chicken versus egg. My fundamental argument is that I do not believe woody ever had the personnel to make the proper adjustments. I do not deny the results, but I refuse to ignore the root cause

[NineOhTheRino]

I stand corrected on Frank. He started 0-16, was fired, and the team finished 12-52 under Kiki Vandeweghe. Still I think he would made Woody's 13-win team look like the '96 Bulls had he stayed on.

[AHF]

Cause versus effect. Chicken versus egg. My fundamental argument is that I do not believe woody ever had the personnel to make the proper adjustments. I do not deny the results, but I refuse to ignore the root cause

You are saying that Woody had the worst collection of playoff talent in NBA history for making adjustments?

You must think a lot of him to think that he enjoyed #3 and #4 seeds in 2009 and 2010 yet put up dramatically worse margins of loss than collective #8 seeds put up against the 72, 69, and 62 win Champion Chicago Bulls in consecutive championship seasons from 1996-98. Since Woody's talent was so much less, it is no wonder he seems like such a great coach!

I stand corrected on Frank. He started 0-16, was fired, and the team finished 12-52 under Kiki Vandeweghe. Still I think he would made Woody's 13-win team look like the '96 Bulls had he stayed on.

Let's talk about those Bulls championship teams then. The 69 win Bulls beat the following collection of talent by an average of 6 points per game. You can see how much better they were than the Hawks:

Playoffs

Glossary ▪ CSV ▪ PRE

Totals Shooting Per Game

Rk Player Age G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST

1 Rod Strickland 30 3 124 22 52 1 2 14 19 5 18 25 3 0 11 8 59 .423 .500 .737 41.3 19.7 6.0 8.3

2 Juwan Howard 23 3 129 20 43 0 0 16 18 10 18 5 2 2 3 9 56 .465 .889 43.0 18.7 6.0 1.7

3 Tracy Murray 25 3 87 17 30 5 10 16 17 3 9 2 4 2 0 10 55 .567 .500 .941 29.0 18.3 3.0 0.7

4 Chris Webber 23 3 106 19 30 5 11 4 8 7 24 10 2 7 16 18 47 .633 .455 .500 35.3 15.7 8.0 3.3

5 Calbert Cheaney 25 3 120 18 41 0 2 9 12 6 11 4 3 2 5 10 45 .439 .000 .750 40.0 15.0 3.7 1.3

6 Gheorghe Muresan 25 3 70 4 9 0 0 7 8 2 18 0 0 4 11 6 15 .444 .875 23.3 5.0 6.0 0.0

7 Chris Whitney 25 3 20 2 5 2 4 1 1 0 2 2 0 0 5 1 7 .400 .500 1.000 6.7 2.3 0.7 0.7

8 Tim Legler 30 3 19 0 2 0 1 1 2 0 1 2 0 0 0 2 1 .000 .000 .500 6.3 0.3 0.3 0.7

9 Jaren Jackson 29 3 11 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 2 1 0 0 2 7 0 .000 3.7 0.0 0.7 0.3

10 Harvey Grant 31 3 29 0 3 0 1 0 0 0 4 0 0 2 0 5 0 .000 .000 9.7 0.0 1.3 0.0

11 Lorenzo Williams 27 2 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 2.5 0.0 0.0 0.0

v.

Playoffs

Glossary ▪ CSV ▪ PRE

Totals Shooting Per Game

Rk Player Age G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST

1 Joe Johnson 28 11 440 77 199 9 41 34 42 20 56 55 10 3 25 22 197 .387 .220 .810 40.0 17.9 5.1 5.0

2 Jamal Crawford 29 11 351 56 154 18 50 49 58 1 30 30 9 1 20 26 179 .364 .360 .845 31.9 16.3 2.7 2.7

3 Al Horford 23 11 388 67 128 1 1 26 31 28 99 20 8 19 15 35 161 .523 1.000 .839 35.3 14.6 9.0 1.8

4 Josh Smith 24 11 392 62 129 2 6 29 44 37 99 29 13 19 17 30 155 .481 .333 .659 35.6 14.1 9.0 2.6

5 Mike Bibby 31 11 292 36 80 14 34 7 10 5 28 28 9 0 12 26 93 .450 .412 .700 26.5 8.5 2.5 2.5

6 Marvin Williams 23 11 345 31 79 1 2 29 32 23 63 8 6 5 5 20 92 .392 .500 .906 31.4 8.4 5.7 0.7

7 Zaza Pachulia 25 11 161 18 35 0 0 15 24 19 38 3 2 7 9 34 51 .514 .625 14.6 4.6 3.5 0.3

8 Maurice Evans 31 11 148 11 37 3 10 0 0 4 13 2 9 0 5 19 25 .297 .300 13.5 2.3 1.2 0.2

9 Jeff Teague 21 9 58 7 21 2 5 0 0 0 2 4 3 1 4 3 16 .333 .400 6.4 1.8 0.2 0.4

10 Jason Collins 31 3 10 3 5 0 0 0 0 3 5 0 0 0 1 7 6 .600 3.3 2.0 1.7 0.0

11 Mario West 25 7 20 3 4 0 1 0 0 1 2 1 1 0 0 7 6 .750 .000 2.9 0.9 0.3 0.1

12 Randolph Morris 24 3 10 1 2 0 0 1 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 3 3 .500 1.000 3.3 1.0 0.7 0.0

13 Joe Smith 34 5 24 0 3 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 1 1 1 0 .000 4.8 0.0 0.4 0.0

And of course the Hawks' opposition was soo much tougher than the 1997 Bulls, too:

Playoffs

Glossary ▪ CSV ▪ PRE

Totals Shooting Per Game

Rk Player Age G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST

1 Brandon Jennings 20 7 249 49 120 12 41 21 26 5 21 25 8 4 8 19 131 .408 .293 .808 35.6 18.7 3.0 3.6

2 John Salmons 30 7 285 44 109 4 23 27 28 7 26 28 10 4 12 19 119 .404 .174 .964 40.7 17.0 3.7 4.0

3 Carlos Delfino 27 7 226 26 73 15 37 3 4 3 28 18 5 2 12 14 70 .356 .405 .750 32.3 10.0 4.0 2.6

4 Ersan Ilyasova 22 7 157 24 50 5 14 15 18 21 53 3 5 1 10 14 68 .480 .357 .833 22.4 9.7 7.6 0.4

5 Luc Mbah a Moute 23 7 178 26 50 0 2 12 20 14 39 5 2 0 7 15 64 .520 .000 .600 25.4 9.1 5.6 0.7

6 Luke Ridnour 28 7 121 21 45 5 14 10 12 4 13 13 4 1 10 13 57 .467 .357 .833 17.3 8.1 1.9 1.9

7 Jerry Stackhouse 35 7 144 14 43 5 15 18 20 1 12 8 5 1 5 4 51 .326 .333 .900 20.6 7.3 1.7 1.1

8 Kurt Thomas 37 7 199 17 35 0 0 4 5 12 55 11 3 4 8 26 38 .486 .800 28.4 5.4 7.9 1.6

9 Dan Gadzuric 31 7 76 9 17 0 0 1 4 10 24 1 1 5 6 15 19 .529 .250 10.9 2.7 3.4 0.1

10 Primoz Brezec 30 4 25 4 7 0 0 1 2 1 3 0 1 0 0 5 9 .571 .500 6.3 2.3 0.8 0.0

11 Royal Ivey 28 3 11 2 6 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 1 1 1 4 .333 .000 3.7 1.3 0.0 0.7

12 Charlie Bell 30 3 8 0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .000 .000 2.7 0.0 0.0 0.0

v.

Playoffs

Glossary ▪ CSV ▪ PRE

Totals Shooting Per Game

Rk Player Age G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST

1 Michael Jordan 33 19 804 227 498 13 67 123 148 42 150 91 30 17 49 46 590 .456 .194 .831 42.3 31.1 7.9 4.8

2 Scottie Pippen 31 19 753 129 309 39 113 68 86 36 129 72 28 18 55 49 365 .417 .345 .791 39.6 19.2 6.8 3.8

3 Toni Kukoc 28 19 423 45 125 19 53 41 58 13 54 54 13 4 17 30 150 .360 .358 .707 22.3 7.9 2.8 2.8

4 Ron Harper 33 19 515 50 125 21 61 21 28 20 81 57 24 14 11 43 142 .400 .344 .750 27.1 7.5 4.3 3.0

5 Luc Longley 28 19 432 57 104 0 0 10 26 39 84 35 7 16 28 65 124 .548 .385 22.7 6.5 4.4 1.8

6 Bison Dele 27 19 336 50 104 0 0 16 31 31 71 11 19 8 14 63 116 .481 .516 17.7 6.1 3.7 0.6

7 Steve Kerr 31 19 341 33 77 16 42 13 14 4 18 20 17 2 8 25 95 .429 .381 .929 17.9 5.0 0.9 1.1

8 Dennis Rodman 35 19 535 30 81 4 16 15 26 59 160 27 10 4 28 74 79 .370 .250 .577 28.2 4.2 8.4 1.4

9 Jason Caffey 23 17 167 15 33 0 0 11 14 25 42 15 3 3 12 27 41 .455 .786 9.8 2.4 2.5 0.9

10 Jud Buechler 28 18 138 13 31 4 12 3 5 9 23 5 3 1 1 15 33 .419 .333 .600 7.7 1.8 1.3 0.3

11 Randy Brown 28 17 98 9 30 0 0 3 5 3 10 6 8 2 4 22 21 .300 .600 5.8 1.2 0.6 0.4

12 Robert Parish 43 2 18 1 7 0 0 0 0 2 4 0 0 3 0 2 2 .143 9.0 1.0 2.0 0.0

It must be all about the amazing challenge Woody had with his limited, limited roster.

Edited August 1, 2011 by AHF

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Silly comparison AHF. All of those comparisons show is that the NBA is a game of MATCHUPS . . . and not necessarily seeding.

That same Washington team was responsible for one of the Bulls regular season losses, and had played them tough throughout that entire season. They had 3 legit guys who could score on that team ( Webber, Howard, and Strickland ) . . with a 4th guy who could score in Tracy Murray.

Honestly AHF . . if you were to do a side by side comparison of that team vs the Hawks, you might be surprised at who had better talent. The 1996 Bullets . . or the 2010 Hawks

PG: Bibby vs Strickland . . . edge Strickland ( better scoring and passing PG )

G: Johnson vs Chaney . . . edge Johnson

F: Webber vs Marvin ( because Webber was the SF on that team ) . . . edge Webber

PF: Howard vs Smith . . . Push ( Smith was the better defender, Howard the better scorer, especially in the low post )

C: Horford vs Muresan . . edge Horford ( but Muresean was 7-7 and took up a ton of space in the lane )

6th man: Jamal vs Murray . . . edge Jamal ( Jamal is more dynamic and an electric scorer )

That Washington team talent wise, wasn't so far behind us. Actually, all they were was young as hell. But what they did was pose matchup problems for the Bulls, seeing that they had nobody that could guard Strickland, and Webber was a matchup problem on the other end, whether he played SF in the big lineup, or PF in the Howard - Webber - Murray frontline. But their "Big 3" of Webber - Howard - Strickland was no slouch. And some may say that they were better than our "Big 3" of Johnson - Smith - Horford. They were definitely better offensively.

As for the 2009 - 10 Hawks, we could see that playoff beatdown coming if we didn't take Game 1, seeing that Orlando had constantly beat this team down for about 2 seasons prior to that playoff series. Orlando not only posed a matchup problem for us, they were completely in our heads. Even the game we won during the 09 - 10 regular season had more to do with them being ice cold from the outside, than us flat out beating them.

But the big fact remains that Joe Johnson ( whether hurt or just flat out in a slump ), played like garbage during that Orlando series. He wasn't even close to his normal production, which killed us. This year, it was Orlando's shooters who were garbage, while JJ played close enough to his normal output to help get the job done.

Even the Cleveland series, JJ just didn't get it done, and the other guys weren't good enough to compensate for JJ playing bad.

People can say what they want about LD's coaching in the playoffs this year. The fact is that JJ came up HUGE in Game 1 ( on the road ) in both of those playoff series this year. Huge as in SUPERSTAR huge. Had he sustained that level of play throughout the series, it would've been enough to take down both Orlando and Chicago. His play had nothing to do with Drew's coaching. Just like him sucking in the previous two 2nd round matchups had nothing to do with Woody's coaching.

In the NBA, when stars step up, the team usually have a good shot to win. If Drew would've made some great strategical move in both of those playoff series, then that's one thing. We had already proven during the regular season that we may have overcome our problems with Orlando ( with their new personnel playing like garbage not helping their cause one bit ). So when the playoffs came around, they didn't have the same psychological edge that they had in the previous season.

JJ and Jamal step up huge in Game 1 . . Hawks win

JJ, Josh, Al, and Teague step up huge in Game 4 . . . Hawks win

In the 4 losses to the Bulls . . . the Hawks lose by an average of 15.5 ppg

And fans are supposed to act like LD did such a superior job of coaching in the 2nd round over Woody? Nah . . . the players finally did what they're supposed to do in the playoffs . . . STEP UP. The Game 6 loss to Chicago had nothing to do with Drew. That was all on the players. Just like the Game 1 win had nothing to do with Drew.

Edited August 3, 2011 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Just keep it real with the comparisons

Had the Hawks had a 7-7 guy that they could throw at Dwight Howard, and moved Horford to PF and Smith to SF . . . maybe the 2010 Hawks would've given the Magic a better series. And I know people around here think Josh Smith and Al Horford are a great tandem ( they're a good tandem ) . . but they weren't better than a young Chris Webber and Juwan Howard back in the day. They just aren't. Webber and Howard ( especially offensively ), were far superior players to Smith and Horford. And they rebounded the basketball just as well.

Had Webber not fouled out in Game 3 of that Bulls - Washington series, they beat the Bulls in that game. But Chicago had a superstar that saved them.

Edited August 3, 2011 by northcyde

[AHF]

The point isn't that specific comparison but you already noted that a team less talented than the Hawks fared much better against one of the best teams in NBA history than the Hawks did against one of the least talented playoff teams in NBA history against whom the Hawks did have huge matchup advantages that they simply didn't exploit.

The point is that it is asinine to suggest that Woody had the worst teams in NBA history for making adjustments. That is what was being suggested when it was said that Woody's possible worst in history playoff loss differential was meaningless because his opportunities for matchups were limited. (Of course, the fact that a major adjustment was made the next offseason with the same personnel by playing Collins against Howard also radically undercuts that argument).

If anyone thinks that isn't a factor for why he hasn't been rehired, I think they are deluding themselves. Anyone who does digging on Woody sees a coach who only one time arguably brought his team to overachieve in the regular season and who was regularly pummeled on a historic scale in his playoff losses. That isn't an appealing combination - particularly once you start looking at coaches that have been successful with mediocre talent are often the guys most adept at motivating and making adjustments and people on this thread are claiming that (a) Woody was incapable of making effective adjustments due to roster limitations and (b) the Orlando "worst series in NBA history" shouldn't be blamed on him because the team had quit on him. I think among other factors GMs look at their rosters and say to themselves, "we have less talent than the Hawks did so why would I think he would make the necessary adjustments with this roster if he couldn't do anything with the Hawks" and "either he led his team to the worst playoff series ever or his team quit on him which led to the worst playoff series ever and in either case that doesn't instill confidence."

Woody lost his games over 3 seasons in the playoffs by 20+ points every year - regardless of matchups or talent on the roster.

The challenge is out there for anyone to find a coach with 8+ playoff losses and a worse margin of loss than Woody. I fully believe it is possible there is someone worse but I don't know of him yet.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Hawks losses in the 2011 playoffs

- 6 points in Game 2 ( ORL )

- 25 points in Game 5 ( ORL )

- 13 points in Game 2 ( CHI )

- 17 points in Game 3 ( CHI )

- 12 points in Game 5 ( CHI )

- 20 points in Game 6 ( CHI )

Average margin of losses in the 2011 playoffs: 15.5 points

So is that really a coaching problem that we lost like that in the playoffs . . . or a personnel problem? I guess the fact that we're "only" losing by 15 ppg is better than us losing by 20+ ppg? Instead of getting destroyed by 30+ points in a few games, we only get destroyed by 20+ points in a few games. Progress, I guess.

Even when we were getting destroyed during the regular season, you can't put those losses solely on Drew. One of the things that kills this team is that when we start going south, we can't get easy buckets or points at the FT line. As solid as Smith and Horford are, we just can't throw the ball to them down on the block and see them score at the rim or draw a foul. As solid as JJ is, he's still going to rely on the floater when he drives to the hole, rather than going hard to the rim looking to draw contact. Same with Jamal.

As for the Milwaukee - Atlanta series, we all know that whatever went down before Game 3 of that series ( including Josh Smith's comments, which lit a fire under Milwaukee ), had a factor in that series. They simply outplayed us in Milwaukee, despite not having Bogut. Then when we came home, our backcourt ( JJ and especially Jamal ) sold us out. It wasn't until we took control of that game defensively in Game 6, that we regained complete control of the series.

That's why I'm not going to totally villify Drew as a coach. It's also the reason why I didn't totally villify Woody as a coach either. Both, in my eyes, are C level type coaches with B- level talent ( as a whole ). I just can't prop up Drew over Woody, seeing that the major difference in our 2nd round wins vs Chicago, was JJ finally playing like an All-Star in that round, instead of a guy that played like he didn't belong on that level. The Hawks are just too flawed as a team, until we get the right pieces in here to compliment what our stars don't give us.

[AHF]

Drew hasn't proven much to me - he could be as bad as Woody or could be better. I've seen a few nice things and some real failures, but he has had 1 year in control. Woody has proven himself to me (not a compliment).