Biggest Loser = Joe Johnson?

[Diesel]

Next move for the owners consist of voiding out all contracts.

Gotta suck for Joe and others.

[ATLJA316]

Would that make the Hawks the biggest winners?

[Diesel]

Would there still be a Hawks?

[Eddielives]

Even if this season is lost, getting out of Joe's contract would give the Hawks organization a clean slate and hopefully a better system with which to compete. I know how you feel, Diesel, about Joe. I get it but I don't share your feelings that we can't do better. One day, we'll draft that Durant, sign that top free agent and get this organization out of mediocrity. I have to have hope as a fan we can do better than overpaying for Joe and fooling myself into thinking he's gonna become Jordan or Kobe all of a sudden.

[capstone21]

Do you think we can attract better players here? The answer is no.

[Eddielives]

Do you think we can attract better players here? The answer is no.

I disagree. You are correct in that Atlanta hasn't traditionally been a franchise top free agents typically consider seriously. But if the fact is we cannot compete and attract a Kobe, Shaq or any superstar top free agent ever, then please tell me why the hell we have NBA basketball in this city? To just watch other teams put it together and cry about how we just can never do that? To say the answer is no is basically saying no matter what happens, we will never be able to fairly compete with Miami, New York or Los Angeles. This is false. The facts are that we haven't traditionally drafted properly. We've missed on some big stars, like Chris Paul, when we've had the opportunity to take them. We've had bad ownership and management since the days of Ted Turner. This organization's issues start at the top. NBA players love Atlanta. Atlanta is a great city to live in. So why don't free agents typically come here? The answer is our image as a franchise. Either we're just at a low point or when we're decent like we have been for the past several years, we still had an ownership debacle that you know forced agents to tell their clients to just don't even consider it.

I believe we can and will build a legitimate championship caliber team one day, hopefully beginning with a new system and a clean slate for payroll next year. As I've said before, if you don't think we even have the ability to do that, then cash in your fan card. When we finally draft the guy who turns into a superstar, when we get our ownership situation stabilized, when we get a better gm and coaching staff and when just a little luck turns our way, we will be a top dog and hopefully carry that rep on for years. If overpaying Joe Johnson makes you feel okay because it's the best we can do, then enjoy being a no hope for glory fan because the Joe Johnson's of the NBA will never lead a team to a championship or even come close.

[Randy]

The ASG should was "Storage Wars" - the show about people bidding for abandoned storage lockers. The big players often bid up lockers they don't want, just so their competitors will have less money to spend on the ones they really want. That's what happened with JJ - the Mavs and others talked to him just so the ASG would pay the max, and then would not have money to spend on other FAs.

[capstone21]

I disagree. You are correct in that Atlanta hasn't traditionally been a franchise top free agents typically consider seriously. But if the fact is we cannot compete and attract a Kobe, Shaq or any superstar top free agent ever, then please tell me why the hell we have NBA basketball in this city? To just watch other teams put it together and cry about how we just can never do that? To say the answer is no is basically saying no matter what happens, we will never be able to fairly compete with Miami, New York or Los Angeles. This is false. The facts are that we haven't traditionally drafted properly. We've missed on some big stars, like Chris Paul, when we've had the opportunity to take them. We've had bad ownership and management since the days of Ted Turner. This organization's issues start at the top. NBA players love Atlanta. Atlanta is a great city to live in. So why don't free agents typically come here? The answer is our image as a franchise. Either we're just at a low point or when we're decent like we have been for the past several years, we still had an ownership debacle that you know forced agents to tell their clients to just don't even consider it.

I believe we can and will build a legitimate championship caliber team one day, hopefully beginning with a new system and a clean slate for payroll next year. As I've said before, if you don't think we even have the ability to do that, then cash in your fan card. When we finally draft the guy who turns into a superstar, when we get our ownership situation stabilized, when we get a better gm and coaching staff and when just a little luck turns our way, we will be a top dog and hopefully carry that rep on for years. If overpaying Joe Johnson makes you feel okay because it's the best we can do, then enjoy being a no hope for glory fan because the Joe Johnson's of the NBA will never lead a team to a championship or even come close.

I wonder that myself from the lack of fan support at the games (the ones that do show up cheer for the other team) to the mess that is our ownershop. Top tier free agents do not want to come here. We could not even sign a broken down shaq two summers ago. The only quality free agent that we have signed over the last couple of decades was Deke. Dude I have been a fan of this team for almost 30 years. I am just realistic about the situation. I would love for a Howard or a Paul to come here but I don't see either of them coming here.

[xhawk]

I think the bigger loser would be Marvin. Believe or not, Joe can get a comparable contract if this one gets voided. Marvin probably would not. Also because of Joe's playing style and durability he has more years to recoup money.

[Diesel]

Even if this season is lost, getting out of Joe's contract would give the Hawks organization a clean slate and hopefully a better system with which to compete. I know how you feel, Diesel, about Joe. I get it but I don't share your feelings that we can't do better. One day, we'll draft that Durant, sign that top free agent and get this organization out of mediocrity. I have to have hope as a fan we can do better than overpaying for Joe and fooling myself into thinking he's gonna become Jordan or Kobe all of a sudden.

That was the thinking prior to getting Joe. We Junked the team in order to get our "Durant" in the Draft. What did we get?

Josh Childress.

Marvin

Smoove

Acie

Shelden

Horf

This was the plan we had.. remember. What it says is that the draft is a gamble.

Then we watched the Celtics get rid of their youth for some old vets who knew what they were doing and they won it all.

We watched the Mavs take an old team and they won it all.

We watched the Lakers win it all.

The Spurs win it all.

Drafting doesn't guarantee anything. However, getting players that know what they are doing does.

Joe's value is that he knows what he's doing and he can attract other people that know what they're doing.

All of our players have shortcomings but the magic of the GM is to make sure you find good compliments.

We can win with Joe. We just have to find good compliments.

[lunar]

there is no way the owners would allow stern to void out contracts. do you think Miami would want lebron, dwayne, and chris bosh out on the open market. or orlando with dwight howard. new orleans with chris paul?

[Diesel]

The ASG should was "Storage Wars" - the show about people bidding for abandoned storage lockers. The big players often bid up lockers they don't want, just so their competitors will have less money to spend on the ones they really want. That's what happened with JJ - the Mavs and others talked to him just so the ASG would pay the max, and then would not have money to spend on other FAs.

I disagree. When you look at what Joe was doing, he was not Wade or Kobe but to us, he was very important. 4 time allstar... coming off a 24, 5 and 6 year. 3 pt threat. Team leader. Who does that kind of stuff? A team like the Mavs and the Bulls were serious about Joe. It wasn't a case of pumping us up... Why would the Mavs want to pump us up?? Were we a threat to them?

If you take Money out of the equation, having Joe here is a great thing. He's not easily replaceable.

there is no way the owners would allow stern to void out contracts. do you think Miami would want lebron, dwayne, and chris bosh out on the open market. or orlando with dwight howard. new orleans with chris paul?

The question is definitely would they...

Right now, if the players decertify and start in with law suits, the owners would be backed into a corner and I supposed they would. It would mean the destruction of the league but it would also cut the fat. 4 billion dollars... great saving.

I think the bigger loser would be Marvin. Believe or not, Joe can get a comparable contract if this one gets voided. Marvin probably would not. Also because of Joe's playing style and durability he has more years to recoup money.

Marvin is toast anyway. The Union and the Association had already agreed to an amnesty period. Marvin would get paid but be let out of his contract. I doubt that Marvin's next contract will be anything over 2 million per.

I wonder that myself from the lack of fan support at the games (the ones that do show up cheer for the other team) to the mess that is our ownershop. Top tier free agents do not want to come here. We could not even sign a broken down shaq two summers ago. The only quality free agent that we have signed over the last couple of decades was Deke. Dude I have been a fan of this team for almost 30 years. I am just realistic about the situation. I would love for a Howard or a Paul to come here but I don't see either of them coming here.

I wonder that myself from the lack of fan support at the games (the ones that do show up cheer for the other team) to the mess that is our ownershop. Top tier free agents do not want to come here. We could not even sign a broken down shaq two summers ago. The only quality free agent that we have signed over the last couple of decades was Deke. Dude I have been a fan of this team for almost 30 years. I am just realistic about the situation. I would love for a Howard or a Paul to come here but I don't see either of them coming here.

I think we have a shot at Howard. It's not because of what we offer, it's because he's from here and he seems to be tired of struggling in Orlando. It's a dream come true. Just imagine: Howard, Smoove, Joe, and Teague... on the same team. With Hinrich off the bench. As you may have guessed, it would cost us Horf but Orlando would love Horf. It would also cost us several draft picks. BUT we'd win something.

[Joker]

Do you think we can attract better players here? The answer is no.

How so?

Don't say well what about old Shaq. He wanted to make for a potential contender. No one thinks Atlanta is close to that. If Atlanta is a blank slant, of course people would want to play here. If it's an average team no. A young Shaq would have made a world of difference for us. A old Shaq was basically a better, less healthy Jason Collins.

[Joker]

I disagree. When you look at what Joe was doing, he was not Wade or Kobe but to us, he was very important. 4 time allstar... coming off a 24, 5 and 6 year. 3 pt threat. Team leader. Who does that kind of stuff? A team like the Mavs and the Bulls were serious about Joe. It wasn't a case of pumping us up... Why would the Mavs want to pump us up?? Were we a threat to them?

If you take Money out of the equation, having Joe here is a great thing. He's not easily replaceable.

The question is definitely would they...

Right now, if the players decertify and start in with law suits, the owners would be backed into a corner and I supposed they would. It would mean the destruction of the league but it would also cut the fat. 4 billion dollars... great saving.

Marvin is toast anyway. The Union and the Association had already agreed to an amnesty period. Marvin would get paid but be let out of his contract. I doubt that Marvin's next contract will be anything over 2 million per.

I think we have a shot at Howard. It's not because of what we offer, it's because he's from here and he seems to be tired of struggling in Orlando. It's a dream come true. Just imagine: Howard, Smoove, Joe, and Teague... on the same team. With Hinrich off the bench. As you may have guessed, it would cost us Horf but Orlando would love Horf. It would also cost us several draft picks. BUT we'd win something.

Orlando is not trading Howard. At all! It's like Lebron. He makes too much money for them to trade him and they are better off sucking and trying to get Dwight's replacement than doing a stupid trade for guys like Noah and Boozer or Horford and being the new Bobcats.

He will either resign or walk. Nothing else is even an option.

If we are going to get Dwight, Free Agency is the only way. They would need to clear Smith, Williams, and Zaza contracts for 2012-13 season. Smith is worth two million dollars more than Horford in 2012-13. That would give from 18-20 million in capspace if you account for the minimum of 12 men roster.

With that said, we have to compete with Boston, NYK, Brooklyn, New Orleans, and Orlando for these players like Deron, CP3, and Howard.

Stop saying Marvin is toast, you really think ASG is going to pay Marvin 28 million dollars not to play? You really believe that?

Joe is extremely important. I think many here view him like Marvin. Someone who in the way instead of helping the team. They see his contract as the killer. To me, Atlanta is in shite no matter what. If you lose him, you don't have that player who all the top 25 players really want to play with. A lot of guys like Joe a lot more than Bosh. They think Joe is the perfect supporting player for a superstar. They see Bosh as someone who is best on a scrub putting of great numbers but not much impact. Atlanta needs Joe, so they can attract CP3, Deron, and Howard. Unlike public opinion, players in the league think highly of Joe. Rose wanted Joe in Chicago but never wanted Lebron. That should tell you something.

It would cost us Horford and several draft picks? What the hell does Orlando want with late 1st round picks and Horford. He is a very good player who is elite at PnR's but Orlando has no one good at them and why win 25 games when you can stink bad and get someone like Drummond in 2013-14 Draft. It really makes no sense to me. You are acting like we would be trading top 5 picks. Orlando is not going to trade Howard. New Orleans might trade CP3. But New Jersey or Orlando is not trading Deron or Dwight.

[MaceCase]

That was the thinking prior to getting Joe. We Junked the team in order to get our "Durant" in the Draft. What did we get?

Josh Childress.

Marvin

Smoove

Acie

Shelden

Horf

This was the plan we had.. remember. What it says is that the draft is a gamble.

Then we watched the Celtics get rid of their youth for some old vets who knew what they were doing and they won it all.

We watched the Mavs take an old team and they won it all.

We watched the Lakers win it all.

The Spurs win it all.

Drafting doesn't guarantee anything. However, getting players that know what they are doing does.

Joe's value is that he knows what he's doing and he can attract other people that know what they're doing.

All of our players have shortcomings but the magic of the GM is to make sure you find good compliments.

We can win with Joe. We just have to find good compliments.

You are forgetting that the Mavs traded for Dirk during the draft

The Celtics drafted Pierce

The Lakers traded for Kobe during the draft

The Spurs drafted Robinson, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker

You can't say you can't rely on the draft and then proceed to list teams that utilized their drafted players as the major cogs to all of their success. It's essentially proven that you win with guys you drafted or at the minimum have had since their rookie season, the only team in the past 20+ years to eschew that was the vaunted Detroit Pistons as they continue to stand as the exception to every championship rule.

[Eddielives]

Orlando is not trading Howard. At all! It's like Lebron. He makes too much money for them to trade him and they are better off sucking and trying to get Dwight's replacement than doing a stupid trade for guys like Noah and Boozer or Horford and being the new Bobcats.

He will either resign or walk. Nothing else is even an option.

If we are going to get Dwight, Free Agency is the only way. They would need to clear Smith, Williams, and Zaza contracts for 2012-13 season. Smith is worth two million dollars more than Horford in 2012-13. That would give from 18-20 million in capspace if you account for the minimum of 12 men roster.

With that said, we have to compete with Boston, NYK, Brooklyn, New Orleans, and Orlando for these players like Deron, CP3, and Howard.

Stop saying Marvin is toast, you really think ASG is going to pay Marvin 28 million dollars not to play? You really believe that?

Joe is extremely important. I think many here view him like Marvin. Someone who in the way instead of helping the team. They see his contract as the killer. To me, Atlanta is in shite no matter what. If you lose him, you don't have that player who all the top 25 players really want to play with. A lot of guys like Joe a lot more than Bosh. They think Joe is the perfect supporting player for a superstar. They see Bosh as someone who is best on a scrub putting of great numbers but not much impact. Atlanta needs Joe, so they can attract CP3, Deron, and Howard. Unlike public opinion, players in the league think highly of Joe. Rose wanted Joe in Chicago but never wanted Lebron. That should tell you something.

It would cost us Horford and several draft picks? What the hell does Orlando want with late 1st round picks and Horford. He is a very good player who is elite at PnR's but Orlando has no one good at them and why win 25 games when you can stink bad and get someone like Drummond in 2013-14 Draft. It really makes no sense to me. You are acting like we would be trading top 5 picks. Orlando is not going to trade Howard. New Orleans might trade CP3. But New Jersey or Orlando is not trading Deron or Dwight.

I don't disagree that Joe would make a great sidekick and other players respect his skill. But it cannot be forgotten that Joe is making superstar money! Supporting role players do not make 20 million dollars a year. Joe is worth around 15 mill a year at the most. If he had not regressed the past two seasons, I would feel different. If he played consistently throughout the playoffs, I would feel different. The reality is he doesn't show up when it matters.

[Diesel]

You are forgetting that the Mavs traded for Dirk during the draft

The Celtics drafted Pierce

The Lakers traded for Kobe during the draft

The Spurs drafted Robinson, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker

You can't say you can't rely on the draft and then proceed to list teams that utilized their drafted players as the major cogs to all of their success. It's essentially proven that you win with guys you drafted or at the minimum have had since their rookie season, the only team in the past 20+ years to eschew that was the vaunted Detroit Pistons as they continue to stand as the exception to every championship rule.

Kobe forced the Laker trade because he didn't want to play for the Bobkittens.

Other stars have done the same.

Point is, we have had more shots at the lottery than most of these other teams. We suck at it. Our own trackrecord states.. it's better to trade for talent!

We traded for Nique.

We traded for Deke.

We traded for Smitty.

We traded for Mookie.

We traded for Shareef. (BTW, we would have taken Battier).

We traded for Joe Johnson.

Hell, we traded for the Pick that became Smoove.

Point is, our own track record says... we can't attract talent and we don't draft talent too well either.

[MaceCase]

Not being able to do something in the past doesn't guarantee that you won't be able to do it correctly in the future.

That is loser/quitter mentality which is part of why this franchise hasn't gotten anywhere. This pervading attitude is a big reason why fans both local and elsewhere including players haven't bought into this franchise because the philosophy is "Meh, good enough is just fine."

Fact is the Hawks have done it their way and failed time and time again and then want to cite championship franchises but have zero intention of doing what those guys did to make it because "we sucked at it". The Hawks are going to continue to suck altogether by pursuing a blueprint that has succeeded but once in history.

[lethalweapon3]

Kobe forced the Laker trade because he didn't want to play for the BUGS.

Fixed! :)

~lw3

[DJlaysitup]

Even if this season is lost, getting out of Joe's contract would give the Hawks organization a clean slate and hopefully a better system with which to compete. I know how you feel, Diesel, about Joe. I get it but I don't share your feelings that we can't do better. One day, we'll draft that Durant, sign that top free agent and get this organization out of mediocrity. I have to have hope as a fan we can do better than overpaying for Joe and fooling myself into thinking he's gonna become Jordan or Kobe all of a sudden.

^ this.