You guys are freaking killing me! Cap information inside.

[thecampster]

Okay fellas. Some of you have me on the verge of violence. Anyone else with knowledge who wants to pile on in this thread, please do so.

In many of our threads, I keep seeing people say things like (if we traded for this expiring guy then let him walk, we've cleared "X" dollars from our cap and can sign Dwight - Carmelo and Lebron's mom. The following is the Hawk's cap situation next year. Source - http://hoopshype.com/salaries/atlanta.htm

JJ - $19,752,645

Josh - $13,200,000

Al - $12,000,000

Marvin - $8,287,500

Zaza - $5,248,750

JT - $2,433,076

Total - $60,921,971

That's it. We only have 6 players signed next year. Kirk is an 8 million dollar expiring this year and a huge trading chip. He is most likely gone by the tradign deadline and by far our biggest asset.

Okay....pretend for a moment we Amnesty JJ. We are at $41 million. Assuming a similar cap next year of $54 million, that leaves us $13 million to sign a Dwight type player. Not gonna happen. Get over it. With nearly no assets, no money...not gonna happen without sending back Marvin, Josh, Al in return and then you only have 5 on the roster. Without Amnestying our top 3 or sign and trading them, we can't sign anyone for more than an exemption. Even with Amnestying, we don't have a max level contract under the cap to sign them. Get it, Got it....Good!

Now the LT. Assuming a Luxury tax of $72 million. With those 6 players under contract, we are $12 million from the LT. Assuming we do trade Kirk for someone else's $8 million salary dump, we'll have about $68 million spent with 7 players under contract. We'll have 4 million to spend. We'll have a first round pick at that will cost about $1.5 million meaning 4 vet minimums for 5 year or less vets or we hit the LT. This is how it will play out, minus a few basic things. So we aren't "amnestying" Joe. Our only recourse is a trade of Joe, Al or Josh for multiple smaller pieces and or finding a buyer for Marvin for pieces. Now notice I said, "PIECES" plural. With our current situation having $45 million tied up in 3 players, almost $20 million in one, our other assets need to bring back lower priced role players. '

Summary - The cap will keep us from just signing people outright even if we amnesty.....The LT will keep us from signing anything more than vet minimums if we don't trade down with our assets.

[MaceCase]

One issue I had, your salary cap of only 54mil. It's at 58mil this year and is tied to revenue of which most reports claim is at near record high so I expect the same cap or slightly higher next season. You are correct that we still wouldn't have a max slot for a player like Dwight if we went the amnesty Joe route but we certainly would for all of the lesser tenured RFAs. Outside of that quibble, solid post.

[Admin]

Alright well allow me to "pile on" ... though not the way you meant.

First off let me say before Hawksfanatic does that you're using Hoopshype when you should be using Sham, although in this case the numbers for next year are the same. Next, where are you getting the $54 salary cap #? All I've been able to find is that the cap is at $58 million again this year, as it was last year. I'm not saying that is accurate, but I haven't seen anything showing $54.

http://www.blazersed...-cap-luxury-tax

According to multiple sources, one of the resolved issues in a new CBA is the 2011 salary cap will remain at the level as it was in 2010 -- $58 million.

http://en.wikipedia..../NBA_salary_cap

The salary cap for the 2010–2011 season is $58.044 million. Under the league's new CBA that was ratified in December 2011, ending the 2011 lockout, the cap will remain at its 2010–11 level for the 2011–12 season

So, I'm going off of that assumption that next year will be $58 or close to it as it's been this year and last.

The trade that I've mentioned that would get us cap room would be to send Marvin and Smith to Boston for KG. That would clear $21.3 million off of next years total that you listed of $60.9 and leave our total salary at $39.6 million. With a salary cap of $58 million that would give us $18.4 million in cap room. Now I know we'd have a cap hold for our draft picks next year, of which I am not sure how much it would be, but we could trade those picks for future picks and not have to spend anything on draft picks. That would still give us the $18.4 million to sign Howard (which I know is very unlikely, but we're just being hypothetical here right?) and we'd have the following under contract.

Teague

JJ

--

Horford

Howard/Pachulia

That's not the strongest lineup out there but I'm sure Sund could work his magic and sign some quality veteran minimum contracts again next year to fill out that roster. Or maybe the ASG would go wild and amnesty Joe and we'd clear another $20 million off of there and be able to sign several quality players, although I know that's even less likely to happen.

Now I could be completely wrong about my numbers and I probably am, but until someone shows me otherwise I'm going to assume that my quick Google search was close to accurate and that I'm not entirely crazy in thinking this is possible.

[thecampster]

Alright well allow me to "pile on" ... though not the way you meant.

First off let me say before Hawksfanatic does that you're using Hoopshype when you should be using Sham, although in this case the numbers for next year are the same. Next, where are you getting the $54 salary cap #? All I've been able to find is that the cap is at $58 million again this year, as it was last year. I'm not saying that is accurate, but I haven't seen anything showing $54.

So, I'm going off of that assumption that next year will be $58 or close to it as it's been this year and last.

The trade that I've mentioned that would get us cap room would be to send Marvin and Smith to Boston for KG. That would clear $21.3 million off of next years total that you listed of $60.9 and leave our total salary at $39.6 million. With a salary cap of $58 million that would give us $18.4 million in cap room. Now I know we'd have a cap hold for our draft picks next year, of which I am not sure how much it would be, but we could trade those picks for future picks and not have to spend anything on draft picks. That would still give us the $18.4 million to sign Howard (which I know is very unlikely, but we're just being hypothetical here right?) and we'd have the following under contract.

Teague

JJ

--

Horford

Howard/Pachulia

That's not the strongest lineup out there but I'm sure Sund could work his magic and sign some quality veteran minimum contracts again next year to fill out that roster. Or maybe the ASG would go wild and amnesty Joe and we'd clear another $20 million off of there and be able to sign several quality players, although I know that's even less likely to happen.

Now I could be completely wrong about my numbers and I probably am, but until someone shows me otherwise I'm going to assume that my quick Google search was close to accurate and that I'm not entirely crazy in thinking this is possible.

I would explain why I wrote $54 million but honestly it would open me up to much mocking for being a moron based on the thread

However, the logic stands because of the cap hold for the draft pick. Also...you can only spend the full space under the cap if that's the first player you sign. So if you resign your own free agents (see green, pargo, Ivan), draft picks first (typical with draft picks), you are taking from that space. No you aren't sending Smith and Marvin for essentially a KG salary dump...not even for a 50/50 chance at Dwight. You don't do that unless you are pretty sure you're gonna get him and have room for role players.

Using that logic of trading smith/marvin for KG means you are getting back additional draft picks which increases that cap usage. It's just silliness and not happening. I mean basic understanding of the mechanics of not only the cap but the order you sign people, etc. Also, there is no way Kirk is walking at the end of the year. Either Kirk is traded now or in a sign and trade after the year. That player will push the cap hold higher (I'm betting next 3 days..for about 5 million in salary or in a package with Marvin for a top tier player (they are 16 million between them....that would buy you someone's 15 million dollar player on a bad team).

but thinking we are going to amnesty our way to Dwight or others is just ridiculous.

Yes, using Shamsports is way better. We have 20 million in cap holds next year beyond the 60 million salary figure on players that will be FA. http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/hawks.jsp Just scroll to the bottom and then explain to me again how we get 18 million under the cap with our holds. Didn't realize Morris, Thomas, Powell and Armstrong all had cap holds next year too.

Edited March 5, 2012 by thecampster

[Diesel]

Winning teams don't bend to the will of a capologist. Winning teams decide what to do based on what they have on the floor.

We can get rid of Marvin's salary and be under the cap. That's a move worth making because Marvin doesn't add much to our play. Marvin/HInrich for Kaman works... even if we have to use the TPE from the Lakers to get Kaman.

Still. Giving up Josh for a rental is not smart.

Capwise, some of the numbers may work, but the product you leave on the floor is inferior.

[thecampster]

Winning teams don't bend to the will of a capologist. Winning teams decide what to do based on what they have on the floor.

We can get rid of Marvin's salary and be under the cap. That's a move worth making because Marvin doesn't add much to our play. Marvin/HInrich for Kaman works... even if we have to use the TPE from the Lakers to get Kaman.

Still. Giving up Josh for a rental is not smart.

Capwise, some of the numbers may work, but the product you leave on the floor is inferior.

I think you can get more for Marvin/Hinrich. There are buyers out there for Marvin and Hinrich is an expiring...Marvin is next year if he doesn't work out. Minny for example would love Marvin....So would New Jersey.

[Guest Walter]

No you aren't sending Smith and Marvin for essentially a KG salary dump...not even for a 50/50 chance at Dwight. You don't do that unless you are pretty sure you're gonna get him and have room for role players.

Remember, Dwight isn't the only prize. Hawes, Lopez, Hibbert, Asik, the other Lopez, and maybe even Bynum (tema option) are FAs this off-season. That's just the center position.

I understand that we can't just "dump" one player and expect to have cap space. IMO, we would need to dump several. That's why I could see going after Rondo alone or along with several of Boston's expiring contracts, but not in-between.

Example: Horford or JS/JJ/Teague/MW for Rondo/Allen/Garnett

Having said that, I don't think Boston does it AND trading JJ for say, Monta Ellis and Kwame, MW for sessions, and Hinrich for a TPE and 1st, while not allowing us space under the cap, allows us space under the lottery to use the MLE and other exemptions.

Sessions, BTW would be a reasonable PG to pair with Monta as Sessions (or Hinrich) is 6'3".

W

[Admin]

The year the Heat signed the big 3 I do believe they signed them before anyone else and then signed cheap players as fillers.

I also mentioned trading our first round draft pick(s) for future picks so that we wouldn't have that money against us.

If the Hawks wanted to they could easily clear enough space to sign Dwight. Now, would he sign here without (or even with) Josh? I dunno, although I doubt it. Is this strategy wise? Nope. Is this what I would do as GM? Nope. Is this at all possible though? Yep I believe it is.

Hawksfanatic needs to weigh in on this topic.

[Diesel]

I think you can get more for Marvin/Hinrich. There are buyers out there for Marvin and Hinrich is an expiring...Marvin is next year if he doesn't work out. Minny for example would love Marvin....So would New Jersey.

I don't doubt that... Also, I like the Marvin for Sessions trade too. I just think going into the playoffs, having a big with a low post awareness (Like Kaman) would be very helpful. Don't get me wrong, I too hope that Horf is back and plays well, but neither he nor Smoove plays in the low post consistently. We proved against OKC that when we have our low post game working, we're a different team.

Now as far as Marvin to Minny... I would do Marvin for Johnson and Peckovic(or Darko) all day.

I would do a Marvin for Petro and Morrow all day.

However, those are not the cap clearing moves that I think about.

Marvin for Sessions and Kirk for TPE/1st has it's benefits.

But Marvin/Kirk for Kaman is not a bad deal if you thnk about playoff run.

[Guest]

Still no CBA out yet, so its hard to talk about this stuff. I know I remember reading that there is a new mid-level exception to be used for teams who sign up to the salary cap, I think its like a $3 million or so exception. In the past, teams more than the MLE under the salary cap would not have use of the MLE (they would renounce it because it didn't make sense to keep that caphold). I don't know how all the new MLEs work.

One thing to account for is that each roster spot has a caphold. So even if the Hawks renounce all FAs and amnesty Joe, that leaves the Hawks at only 5 players under contract. A caphold equal to the rookie minimum salary is put into place for the 7 remaining roster spots. This past year, that was $473,604 according to Sham so if we amnesty Joe then we aren't at $41 million but instead at $44,484,555.

I think most of this is moot, Joe will not be amnestied because of the immense amount of money he is owed. The only way these fantasy scenarios happen is with drastic changes. I say put down the pipe and lets just enjoy the season we have right now. Its hard enough talking about extreme scenarios when you know the CBA, not having information on the current CBA makes this damn near impossible.

[Admin]

Still no CBA out yet, so its hard to talk about this stuff. I know I remember reading that there is a new mid-level exception to be used for teams who sign up to the salary cap, I think its like a $3 million or so exception. In the past, teams more than the MLE under the salary cap would not have use of the MLE (they would renounce it because it didn't make sense to keep that caphold). I don't know how all the new MLEs work.

One thing to account for is that each roster spot has a caphold. So even if the Hawks renounce all FAs and amnesty Joe, that leaves the Hawks at only 5 players under contract. A caphold equal to the rookie minimum salary is put into place for the 7 remaining roster spots. This past year, that was $473,604 according to Sham so if we amnesty Joe then we aren't at $41 million but instead at $44,484,555.

I think most of this is moot, Joe will not be amnestied because of the immense amount of money he is owed. The only way these fantasy scenarios happen is with drastic changes. I say put down the pipe and lets just enjoy the season we have right now. Its hard enough talking about extreme scenarios when you know the CBA, not having information on the current CBA makes this damn near impossible.

That's something I hadn't thought about so thanks for putting that out there. I agree that all of this is fantasy talk and it's very unlikely to happen, although it's fun to think about what "could be" from time to time.

[MaceCase]

Still no CBA out yet, so its hard to talk about this stuff. I know I remember reading that there is a new mid-level exception to be used for teams who sign up to the salary cap, I think its like a $3 million or so exception. In the past, teams more than the MLE under the salary cap would not have use of the MLE (they would renounce it because it didn't make sense to keep that caphold). I don't know how all the new MLEs work.

One thing to account for is that each roster spot has a caphold. So even if the Hawks renounce all FAs and amnesty Joe, that leaves the Hawks at only 5 players under contract. A caphold equal to the rookie minimum salary is put into place for the 7 remaining roster spots. This past year, that was $473,604 according to Sham so if we amnesty Joe then we aren't at $41 million but instead at $44,484,555.

I think most of this is moot, Joe will not be amnestied because of the immense amount of money he is owed. The only way these fantasy scenarios happen is with drastic changes. I say put down the pipe and lets just enjoy the season we have right now. Its hard enough talking about extreme scenarios when you know the CBA, not having information on the current CBA makes this damn near impossible.

That's actually the reason, the min roster cap holds and 1st rounder cap hold, that I believe Camp arrived at a cap of 54mil. He subtracted it from the cap limit rather than adding it to the cap commitment. Because of this his original assessment of going after Dwight or any other 7-9 year vet max player is out of the question but I pointed out that the RFAs would be within range.

Either way, his original assessment is the same as yours and mine in that these scenarios are far fetched considering the ownership we're dealing with.

[thecampster]

I wish it were so....I brain farted a 4 for an 8 and then read my own number and accepted it as truth. Thanks for making me seem smarter than I am though.

However, let's pretend for a moment you are Howard, Ray Allen, Deron Williams, etc. The Hawks amnesty Joe, trade Josh/Marvin/Teague for an embarrassing rash spring break weekend and are left with Horford as a starting point and they come to you and say...take our buckets of money and we'll build around you. We're serious and trustworthy.

I'm sure Deron, Dwight, Ray run to you over the other 29 teams in the league. Your reputation after all is that trustworthy.

People forget that the only reason Miami pulled off what they did is all 3 players signed for less than the max. They each will make only 17.5 next season (2.2 million less than Joe...Wade will make $17.1). They were all about 15% below max and their current cap hold for 2012/2013 is $82 million which would put them $10 million into the Luxury tax. I'm pretty sure the ASG isn't taking a $20 million dollar a year risk or getting a 15% discount from players to come here.

Edited March 5, 2012 by thecampster