I need a stathead to explain this too me.

[Diesel]

+/-

What does it mean?

Here's my problem. It's halftime.

Zaza has played 16 minutes. Has 10 points, 10 rebounds, on 4 for 5 shooting and he's 2-2 from the free throw line and they give him..

-4.

What does that mean?

[Admin]

From NBA.com

The +/- stat looks at point differential when players are in and out of a game, demonstrating how teams perform with various combinations. The +/- stat can look at a variety of combinations including the best two-player, three-player and even five-player combinations for each game.

[Buzzard]

From NBA.com

Yes and the key to look for is where your team is in relation to the actual score.

-4 and we are down 1 which is -1, so in theory ZaZa has been a part of the unit that has given up more than the unit who has a -1 on it which is where we are at. Those that have a + have actually been part of the team that have helped us catch up...

[Guest]

Its the same thing as +/- from the NHL except replace goals with points.

[Admin]

Its the same thing as +/- from the NHL except replace goals with points.

People still watch hockey?

[MaceCase]

Single game +/- is iffy if not altogether useless because it has nothing to do with an individual player but rather all 10 players on the court at the time. It really only comes into play with a whole season's worth of data and even then needs a lot of adjusments because it still can't rate an individual but rather the lineups he plays in.

[DJlaysitup]

People still watch hockey?

What's a hockey?

[DJlaysitup]

Single game +/- is iffy if not altogether useless because it has nothing to do with an individual player but rather all 10 players on the court at the time. It really only comes into play with a whole season's worth of data and even then needs a lot of adjusments because it still can't rate an individual but rather the lineups he plays in.

Exactly MaceCase...depending on the situation...it can be a useless stat.

As an example, how about the times last year when Jamal Crawford was basically taking over offensively as the 6th man. All the backup guys who were in the game with him got +'s even though they weren't really doing much except playing defense against other backups and watching Craw light it up.

[thecampster]

If you are on the court and your team scores, you get a +1 for every point. If you are on the court and the opposing team scores, you get a -1 for every point. If you are on the bench, nothing happens.

So tonight for example,

In Kirk's 42 minutes, the team scored 7 more points than it gave up.

In Teague's 37 minutes the team scored 15 more points than it gave up.

In Zaza's 29 minutes, the team gave up 2 more points than it scored.

In Smith's 39 minutes, the team scored 9 more points than it gave up

In JJ's 37 minutes, the team scored 2 more points than it gave up.

Now for fun, I did some figuring. Hawks players this season. Notice how the smaller the sample/minutes played, more assanine the number. +/- is a decent season long value stat but not a good game by game stat.

Player///// avg+/- // per48 +/-

Sloan//////+3.6////+43.38

Damp/////+2.1////+16.57

Stack//////+2.9////+15.12

Horford///+4.73///+7.18

Vlad////////+2.39///+6.97

Teague///+2.12///+3.18

Josh///////+2.0//////+2.69

Joe/////// +1.74////+2.33

TMac//// +.79 //////+2.27

Pargo//// +.28 ///// +1.10

Marvin // +.24 //// +.45

Zaza ///// -.1 ////// -.19

Ivan ////// -.2 ////// -.68

Collins // -.3 ////// -1.36

Hinrich // -1.1 //// -2.62

Green /// -2 /////// -5.58

FYI, +/- for the year (partial list)

Radman 92

Teague 87

Josh 82

JJ 61

Al 51 (in only 11 games when we started out well)

Stack 44

TMac 27

Pargo 10

Marvin 9

Zaza -3

Hinrich -25

Green -70

Edited March 12, 2012 by thecampster

[Diesel]

That stat sucks.

I'd say 10/10 on 4-5 shooting with 3 offensive boards in 16 minutes is great.

Just because he's on the team that gave up more than it scored doesn't mean much. What if Evans was Unstoppable? Zaza gets penalized for that??

+/- sucks.

[Popeye]

That stat sucks.

I'd say 10/10 on 4-5 shooting with 3 offensive boards in 16 minutes is great.

Just because he's on the team that gave up more than it scored doesn't mean much. What if Evans was Unstoppable? Zaza gets penalized for that??

+/- sucks.

Zaza was matched up with Cousins who was killing us.... I am not saying Zaza played bad, but Cousins is a bad match up for him,...

[thecampster]

It's a "how well do you function in the team concept" and a "are you lucky enough to be on the floor with the right guys" stat.

Look at Rad's stats for the year. The stats suggest Rad is on the floor during comebacks or pull aways. Rad tends to replace Marvin, is on the floor with the better defensive units and the 3 point shooting units. He doesn't play often with Green or Hinrich. Zaza's numbers are way, way down from playing with the reserves the beginning of the year (first 20 games or so). Teague plays most of his time with Josh, Joe, almost never with Green and is usually sub'd for by Kirk. Kirk was out when Al was playing and gets no benefit of Al.

Al, played almost exclusively with Teague, Josh, Joe and a mixture of Rad, Marvin.

Josh mixes in with the subs a lot as the last man off the floor. Joe, similar. Their numbers are affected by playing a lot with Kirk, Green, Zaza.

[thecampster]

Here's the deal Diesel, the +/- is a good tool for exposing if a player with good personal numbers (Joe, Josh, etc) helps others around him. It's a tool and not the end all, be all. Some players get their's (see Crawford) but don't necessarily make everyone around them better. In Craw's case, defensive liabilities. This is why Rad is so high. He is long, average defender but his presence stretches the Defense, helping others on the floor get space for shots. The offense is better when Rad's on the floor, defense doesn't suffer except on teams that rotate well to the 3 point shooters (which he doesn't defend well).

Teague and Josh's numbers are higher because of their presence on the defensive end. They create fast break opportunities, get steals/rebounds/blocks, slow the other team's offense. Although not the best offensively, they are good there and very good on the defensive end in most situations.

Joe's numbers are a little lower because when on the floor he dominates the ball making other's around him less efficient. Also, Joe is typically on the floor when the other team's best players are on the floor as the main rotation guy.

Marvin's number's suck because when the team struggles, he is usually first yanked. He's not on the floor for the good run and his rotation sticks him with the subs a great deal as a first option with the subs (which we know he is not).

[thecampster]

When you go to 82games.com and look at our team stats, one floor unit jumps out in the 5 man rotations. Early in the year we were using Teague-J.Johnson-Radmanovic-Smith-Horford. We used it 56.6 minutes in the first 11 games. During those 56.6 minutes we were +36. Same group, sub Marvin for Rad we used 177.1 minutes but are only +19. 3 times the minutes, half the plus minus. This shows how much better Rad fits in the team concept with the other 4 starters. How much more comfortable getting his in the flow and helping primary options he is.

When the grouping is Teague-J.Johnson-Williams-Smith-Pachulia, the team is -20 in 322 minutes. Sub in Rad for Williams in only 41 minutes the group is +15.

Now interestingly, when paired with the subs, Marvin does fair better. This would suggest that Rad should be starting in place of Marvin and Marvin is lost when he must defer.

Note: 82games is about 10 days behind.

Edited March 12, 2012 by thecampster

[Joker]

It's a quality stat.

[MaceCase]

It's a quality stat.

It's really not. They even invented Adjusted +/- to eliminate most of it's limitations and that itself requires a 2 year sample in order to be effective.

[Buzzard]

It's really not. They even invented Adjusted +/- to eliminate most of it's limitations and that itself requires a 2 year sample in order to be effective.

It is a fun stat during blow outs. I enjoy seeing our bench players putting up good numbers :)

[Randy]

Could be just a coincidence, but Carmelo Anothy has a +/- of -50 on the four games the next just lost.......

[Watchman]

It essentially means that you, with the teamates you had on the floor while you were out there were more effective or less effective than the opponents players on the court at the same time. To me this worth of this stat is dubious. Too many variables.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Watchman