Does Johnson & Smith equal a possible Horford exit?!

[MaceCase]

I get what people are saying but I still believe that our 3 all-stars dont work well with each other...Im betting that as soon as horford returns the J smoove we see now will not be the same. instead we will see the Josh smith of the previous years and johnson who has been on fire lately is only on fire to me because Smith has stepped it up to a point where we are calling him a star and johnson is in the mist of trying to redeem his status...Im telling you guys as soon as horford comes back we are going to say "whats wrong with our hawks?"

its not horford its smith's mindset that he can play like crap because he thinks horford can make up for it so take as many jumpers as he can and johnson is just making sure josh or al doesnt steal his "star of the team" title....I could care less of what others think..this team just dont fit well and somebody needs to go. AGAIN the players we have are good in jj,smith, horford but these 3 dont work. there's no flow to them as a unit against the competitive teams.

Well we saw mostly JJ and Josh for two whole seasons stumble to 26 and 30 wins and the majority of the wins this season have been against non-competitive teams so really where's the basis for your opinion? Really there is none outside of it's what you feel but the reality holds that Joe is just currently into one of his typical hot streaks and Josh's numbers look better based simply off of increased volume rather than efficacy. Look at their season stats as a whole, do you see any dramatic difference in their production in any single category? The answer is no and Al hasn't and shouldn't get in the way of any of their production because he has forever been a low usage and low maintenance player that got his stats within the flow of the game.

[Jody23]

Your entitled to your opinion on Al. But to say Al couldn't take over games like Josh is pure speculation on your part. Last year I remember a game against Chicago at home. Al took over the game and won it by doing what you claim that only Josh can do and not Al. Thats just one example I'm just thinking of off the top of my head. I'm not a team Al or Team Josh guy. I just want this team to win. Who is on the roster doesn't matter to me as long as we win.Yes it might be necessary to trade one of the three. I think I would prefer to get a better coach and ownership as well. Then see how the team would play or the trades we should make. If we did trade one of the three we better get a significant piece back. And No Woody wasn't a good coach, so we didn't go wrong by letting him go.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iVzAFtLFWuERemember that game very well. Al played alot of 4 in that game and had one of the best individual performances of any Hawk player that season.

[Diesel]

We don't win or lose because of being soft or hard. We win or lose by the jumpshot and that's the bottom line. Our top 2 scorers are both primarily outside shooters (88% and 61% of their shots are jumpers) and as we've seen over the years if our jump shots are falling we'd beat anyone and if they're not we could lose to anyone.

Check the numbers again. Our rebounding and inside scoring is a better indicator of winning than our jumpshot.

[willthepureshooter]

Check the numbers again. Our rebounding and inside scoring is a better indicator of winning than our jumpshot.

Dolfan, are you serious?! Lol! What championship team has won playing soft. The cast of Too Wong Foo??? Haha!!! That wasn't well thought through brother.

[coachx]

I could not really vote as the options are stange to say the least.Ignoring the contract situations of the 3 players in question makes the given options even less realistic.

Edited March 20, 2012 by coachx

[Admin]

Dolfan, are you serious?! Lol! What championship team has won playing soft. The cast of Too Wong Foo??? Haha!!! That wasn't well thought through brother.

In memoriam of Exodus, RIF...Where did I even remotely say that playing soft wins championships? I said that THE HAWKS, this Hawks team, wins and dies by the jumpshot. When we shoot a high percentage with our jumpers we win, when we don't we lose. It's as simple as that.

Check the numbers again. Our rebounding and inside scoring is a better indicator of winning than our jumpshot.

Show me the numbers that don't support my claim that when we shoot a high jumpshot FG% that we win. Or the numbers that don't support that when we shoot a low jumpshot FG% we lose.

[AHF]

Just anecdotally, here are the last ten games and our numbers on shots outside of 15 feet:L BOS: 15-40, 37.5%W CLE: 16-41, 39%W WAS: 19-40, 47.5%L LAC: 15-43, 35%L DEN: 21-46, 45.6%W SAC: 16-38, 42%L DET: 12-31, 39%L MIA: 15-38, 39%W IND: 18-43, 42%W OKC: 16-41, 39%Total record: 5-5Jump Shots From 16 Feet In Wins: 41.8%Jump Shots From 16 Feet In Losses: 39.4%

[Admin]

Just anecdotally, here are the last ten games and our numbers on shots outside of 15 feet:L BOS: 15-40, 37.5%W CLE: 16-41, 39%W WAS: 19-40, 47.5%L LAC: 15-43, 35%L DEN: 21-46, 45.6%W SAC: 16-38, 42%L DET: 12-31, 39%L MIA: 15-38, 39%W IND: 18-43, 42%W OKC: 16-41, 39%Total record: 5-5Jump Shots From 16 Feet In Wins: 41.8%Jump Shots From 16 Feet In Losses: 39.4%

Thanks for taking the time to look that up. Pretty much a meaningless difference there ... I'm pretty sure that if looked at over the whole season it will show our FG% is a good indicator of whether we'll win or lose.

[SalvorMallow]

I agree with Dolfan about this misconception related to "softness". I always hear people throwing it around, but I never really hear a clear definition of what makes someone soft vs what makes someone hard. Recently, someone on this board even called Zaza soft....WHAT?

Here is a good article that is somewhat related to the whole "Big hard bodies packing the paint is necessary for rebounding and playing well" ideology.

http://www.nba.com/h...ls=iref:nbahpt1

The problem is, our sets don't seem to be quite this advanced

[Admin]

Check the numbers again. Our rebounding and inside scoring is a better indicator of winning than our jumpshot.

Interesting as I wouldn't have suspected this, but Diesel is actually wrong about the rebounding. For some reason Hawks.com only lists team splits for the last 15 games for us but here you go... http://www.nba.com/h...eam_splits.html

We've actually averaged 2 fewer rebounds per game in our wins over the past 15 games.

<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" class="gSGTable "> <tbody> <tr class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings"> <td align="left" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="90"> SPLIT</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> G</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="50"> W-L</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> FG%</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> 3P%</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> FT%</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> OFF</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> DEF</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> TOT</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> APG</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> SPG</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> BPG</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> PPG </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowEven"> In January</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 11</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 8-3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .447</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .393</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .717</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 10.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 32.7</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 43.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 22.7</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 8.6</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 5.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 97.5 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowOdd"> In December</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 4</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 3-1</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .447</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .377</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .755</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 12.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 31.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 43.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 20.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 7.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 5.2</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 99.0 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowEven"> Wins</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 11</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 0-0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .470</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .423</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .761</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 11.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 31.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 43.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 23.7</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 8.4</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 5.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 101.6 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowOdd"> Losses</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 4</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 0-0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .386</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .288</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .649</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 10.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 34.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 45.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 17.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 7.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 4.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 87.8 </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

[SalvorMallow]

Interesting as I wouldn't have suspected this, but Diesel is actually wrong about the rebounding. For some reason Hawks.com only lists team splits for the last 15 games for us but here you go... http://www.nba.com/h...eam_splits.html

We've actually averaged 2 fewer rebounds per game in our wins over the past 15 games.

<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" class="gSGTable "> <tbody> <tr class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings"> <td align="left" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="90"> SPLIT</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> G</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="50"> W-L</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> FG%</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> 3P%</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> FT%</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> OFF</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> DEF</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> TOT</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> APG</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="40"> SPG</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> BPG</td> <td align="right" class="gSGSectionColumnHeadings" nowrap="nowrap" width="45"> PPG </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowEven"> In January</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 11</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 8-3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .447</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .393</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .717</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 10.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 32.7</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 43.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 22.7</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 8.6</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 5.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 97.5 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowOdd"> In December</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 4</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 3-1</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .447</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .377</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .755</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 12.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 31.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 43.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 20.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 7.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 5.2</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 99.0 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowEven"> Wins</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 11</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 0-0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .470</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .423</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> .761</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 11.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 31.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 43.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 23.7</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 8.4</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 5.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowEven"> 101.6 </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" class="gSGRowOdd"> Losses</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 4</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 0-0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .386</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .288</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> .649</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 10.3</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 34.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 45.0</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 17.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 7.8</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 4.5</td> <td align="right" class="gSGRowOdd"> 87.8 </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

I wish it showed how many possessions were averaged across those games, would make the rebound stats a tad more meaningful.

[Admin]

I wish it showed how many possessions were averaged across those games, would make the rebound stats a tad more meaningful.

Yeah it doesn't seem that is listed anywhere as a combined info source so it's going to take some digging. I did just find that the past 15 games are NOT a good indicator of our whole season though as we're at 42.7 rpg in wins and 39.3 rpg in losses for the season.

[Admin]

Okay so it took some looking up and I'm not ashamed to admit that I was partially wrong

Avg	W	92.95 (Poss)	 9.84 (ORB)	39.41 (TRB)	55.99 (eFG% at rim)	36.81 (eFG% 3-9')	40.71 (eFG% 10-15')	35.07 (eFG% 16-23')	49.22 (eFG% 3's)Avg	L	91.40 (Poss)	10.10 (ORB)	38.33 (TRB)	54.33 (eFG% at rim)	39.38 (eFG% 3-9')	38.94 (eFG% 10-15')	35.97 (eFG% 16-23')	49.50 (eFG% 3's)

BTW the data came from here: http://hoopdata.com/teamgl.aspx?team=ATL

[AHF]

Okay so it took some looking up and I'm not ashamed to admit that I was partially wrong

Avg	W	92.95 (Poss)	 9.84 (ORB)	39.41 (TRB)	55.99 (eFG% at rim)	36.81 (eFG% 3-9')	40.71 (eFG% 10-15')	35.07 (eFG% 16-23')	49.22 (eFG% 3's)Avg	L	91.40 (Poss)	10.10 (ORB)	38.33 (TRB)	54.33 (eFG% at rim)	39.38 (eFG% 3-9')	38.94 (eFG% 10-15')	35.97 (eFG% 16-23')	49.50 (eFG% 3's)

BTW the data came from here: http://hoopdata.com/...l.aspx?team=ATL

How did you generate the average numbers for wins and losses?

[Admin]

How did you generate the average numbers for wins and losses?

The old fashioned AHF way! By hand of course. Using the data from hoopsdata and basketball-reference and then plugging it into Excel. I've attached the Excel file in case you want to check it out.

Advanced Game Stats.zip