now you know haters

[Colin]

I have avoided the Joe vs. Josh question forever because regardless who you pick you're going to get flamed or ridiculed because supporters of one or the other will hand-pick a stat to prove that their player is the best.That being said, as somebody who has watched the games for the last 8 years without Bias for or against either of the two, I think Joe Johnson is our team's best play. Josh Smith has the potential to be an All-NBA player, but Joe has proven consistently that he is the guy that other teams should fear, in clutch time or regular time. If Smoove put in 100% effort, and played defense with complete energy and offense with his head on his shoulders, he could EASILY be the better player. But that has yet to happen consistently over his career, so Joe is still my choice.But that is only if we all ignore Zaza....

[KB21]

Among all shooting guards in the NBA, Joe is 22nd in points per play. He is 32nd in true shooting percentage. He is 13th in PER. He is 28th in win shares. He is 22nd in points per possession.He's one of the least efficient players at his position in the NBA, and when he isn't scoring, he doesn't effect the game in any other way. Yet, the Hawks are paying him like he is an elite player in the NBA. That contract is the reason the Hawks cannot add the players they need to get over the hump, and it is also the reason they will ultimately lose their best player, which is Josh Smith.

[willthepureshooter]

Among all shooting guards in the NBA, Joe is 22nd in points per play. He is 32nd in true shooting percentage. He is 13th in PER. He is 28th in win shares. He is 22nd in points per possession.He's one of the least efficient players at his position in the NBA, and when he isn't scoring, he doesn't effect the game in any other way. Yet, the Hawks are paying him like he is an elite player in the NBA. That contract is the reason the Hawks cannot add the players they need to get over the hump, and it is also the reason they will ultimately lose their best player, which is Josh Smith.

Stats are for cavemen...

[AHawks89]

"Now you know" Josh Smith is our best player.

[Supporter]

I have avoided the Joe vs. Josh question forever because regardless who you pick you're going to get flamed or ridiculed because supporters of one or the other will hand-pick a stat to prove that their player is the best.That being said, as somebody who has watched the games for the last 8 years without Bias for or against either of the two, I think Joe Johnson is our team's best play. Josh Smith has the potential to be an All-NBA player, but Joe has proven consistently that he is the guy that other teams should fear, in clutch time or regular time. If Smoove put in 100% effort, and played defense with complete energy and offense with his head on his shoulders, he could EASILY be the better player. But that has yet to happen consistently over his career, so Joe is still my choice.But that is only if we all ignore Zaza....

I wouldn't say easily, Joe is a very talented dude. He plays the game the right way and he takes the shots that he wants to take. Josh takes shots that the defense gives him and not the other way around.

[Colin]

I wouldn't say easily, Joe is a very talented dude. He plays the game the right way and he takes the shots that he wants to take. Josh takes shots that the defense gives him and not the other way around.

I can see what you're saying, but the flashes of brilliance from Josh are absolutely mind-blowing. Blocks from across the court, smooth post moves mixed with crazy hops is just something that isn't common. Joe can take games over, but the game has a few players who can do that. I still say Joe is the best player on the team.

[Diesel]

That contract is the reason the Hawks cannot add the players they need to get over the hump, and it is also the reason they will ultimately lose their best player, which is Josh Smith.

IF Joe was signed to a 5 yr 5 Million dollar deal, ASG would not spend the money.The contract is not the reason the Hawks cannot add players. It's the ASG is the reason they cannot add the players to get over the hump. Really... was there an attempt to get into any of these big trades either this season or last? We could have gotten Shaq for Marvin... We could have gotten Amare for Smoove. The truth is that we're a funny group. We believe we have everything we need to be successful. We're already setting up to use Horf as an Excuse for this year.There is no push to go beyond the LT unless it's for D-12.With that kind of thinking, we are what we are... it's not on the contract.

[Diesel]

On the main subject of Joe vs. Josh.Joe is our most complete player.Josh has the most potential.Right now, Joe and Josh effect the game differently.Teams gameplan against Joe. They plan to double him. They plan to play their best defensive wing on him. They plan to isolate him.For Josh, they plan too. They plan to frustrate him with physical play and hard fouls. Then they plan to give him open shots on the perimeter.For Josh, that plan works everytime. It's somewhat Punkish, but I watched this become standard operating procedures for Josh especially in the playoffs. Philly is really good at it. They get the ultimate goon (Brand) to lean on Josh and pin Josh up for 1/2 of a quarter and let him find relief out in the perimeter.I begged for us to get a guy like Reggie Evans for this reason. Toughness.Not that he would replace Josh, but just having a guy with that type of tenacity and toughness on the team can help make your team tougher.For Joe... if he's feeling good, there's very little that teams can do to stop him. I say we rest him more often. Once we secure a playoff spot with HC, I suggest shutting Joe down. Joe has the strength and the size to be a problem. He has an arsenal of shooting from outside, floaters on drives, and slow cross overs. In a day where a lot of guys lack skills and can only dunk, Joe is a throwback guy who can shoot. The way that they stop Joe is with the double. Joe's fatal flaw is being doubled inside and trying to work his way out. IF Joe really had PG like Instincts (Magic) where he could spot guys moving and hit them with great passes, he'd be one of the best players in this game. Problem is he gets stuck holding the ball too much. But even with that, his game is still farther along than any other plyer we have. He just has to figure out if he can be a distributor or an end user.

[KB21]

Stats are for cavemen...

I'm not sure if this is an attempt at sarcasm, or if you truly believe that statistics do not matter and shouldn't be used as a tool to help improve this team and the optimization of the money this team spends.Just for giggles though, here are the top 10 players in the league right now relative to PER:1. LeBron James/Heat2. Dwyane Wade/Heat3. Kevin Durant/Thunder4. Chris Paul/Clippers5. Kelvin Love/TWolves6. Dwight Howard/Magic7. Derrick Rose/Bulls8. Russell Westbrook/Thunder9. Al Jefferson/Jazz10. Andrew Bynum/LakersIt's not a coincidence that these guys are the best players in the league.

IF Joe was signed to a 5 yr 5 Million dollar deal, ASG would not spend the money.The contract is not the reason the Hawks cannot add players. It's the ASG is the reason they cannot add the players to get over the hump. Really... was there an attempt to get into any of these big trades either this season or last? We could have gotten Shaq for Marvin... We could have gotten Amare for Smoove.The truth is that we're a funny group. We believe we have everything we need to be successful. We're already setting up to use Horf as an Excuse for this year.There is no push to go beyond the LT unless it's for D-12.With that kind of thinking, we are what we are... it's not on the contract.

If Joe was signed to a 5 year, $5 million contract, the Hawks would be a lot farther under the luxury tax and would be able to spend more money up to the tax to get these players. Instead of having $9 million to play with under the tax, they would have about $26 million to play with. In fact, they would be under the cap.The Hawks ownership doesn't have the means to consistently go into the luxury tax threshold, and when the new rules take effect in 2013-2014, you are going to see even fewer teams willing to go into that threshold. It isn't that hard to be smart with the money you spend, and the first thing we have to do is stop relying on volume statistics and start relying on efficiency statistics.

[KB21]

On the main subject of Joe vs. Josh.Joe is our most complete player.Josh has the most potential.Right now, Joe and Josh effect the game differently.Teams gameplan against Joe. They plan to double him. They plan to play their best defensive wing on him. They plan to isolate him.For Josh, they plan too. They plan to frustrate him with physical play and hard fouls. Then they plan to give him open shots on the perimeter.For Josh, that plan works everytime. It's somewhat Punkish, but I watched this become standard operating procedures for Josh especially in the playoffs. Philly is really good at it. They get the ultimate goon (Brand) to lean on Josh and pin Josh up for 1/2 of a quarter and let him find relief out in the perimeter.I begged for us to get a guy like Reggie Evans for this reason. Toughness.Not that he would replace Josh, but just having a guy with that type of tenacity and toughness on the team can help make your team tougher.For Joe... if he's feeling good, there's very little that teams can do to stop him. I say we rest him more often. Once we secure a playoff spot with HC, I suggest shutting Joe down. Joe has the strength and the size to be a problem. He has an arsenal of shooting from outside, floaters on drives, and slow cross overs. In a day where a lot of guys lack skills and can only dunk, Joe is a throwback guy who can shoot. The way that they stop Joe is with the double. Joe's fatal flaw is being doubled inside and trying to work his way out. IF Joe really had PG like Instincts (Magic) where he could spot guys moving and hit them with great passes, he'd be one of the best players in this game. Problem is he gets stuck holding the ball too much. But even with that, his game is still farther along than any other plyer we have. He just has to figure out if he can be a distributor or an end user.

OK. I'm going to give you a comparison of three players that play shooting guard:Player A: TS% 55.4, %Ast 76.6, AR 13.6, TRR 5.0, PER 13.16; Salary $7.5 millionPlayer B: TS% 55.4, %Ast 58.6, AR 12.3, TRR 5.5, PER 13.06; Salary $2.2 millionPlayer C: TS% 54.5, %Ast 51.6, AR 16.7, TRR 5.6, PER 18.07; Salary $18 millionThese are things you don't pick up when looking at volume statistics, and this shows you that a reliance upong PPG causes you to overpay.

[MaceCase]

Among all shooting guards in the NBA, Joe is 22nd in points per play. He is 32nd in true shooting percentage. He is 13th in PER. He is 28th in win shares. He is 22nd in points per possession.

He's one of the least efficient players at his position in the NBA, and when he isn't scoring, he doesn't effect the game in any other way. Yet, the Hawks are paying him like he is an elite player in the NBA.

That contract is the reason the Hawks cannot add the players they need to get over the hump, and it is also the reason they will ultimately lose their best player, which is Josh Smith.

My problem with this is that you aren't or at least it doesn't look as if you are selecting or adjusting the sample. You can't compare Joe against all SGs in the league because not all SGs play in as many games or minutes so obviously if you are picking them out on their efficiency statistics especially then your stat is going to be severely skewed.

[willthepureshooter]

My problem with this is that you aren't or at least it doesn't look as if you are selecting or adjusting the sample. You can't compare Joe against all SGs in the league because not all SGs play in as many games or minutes so obviously if you are picking them out on their efficiency statistics especially then your stat is going to be severely skewed.

That's why I say.... Stats are for cavemen..

[Vol4ever]

IF Joe was signed to a 5 yr 5 Million dollar deal, ASG would not spend the money.The contract is not the reason the Hawks cannot add players. It's the ASG is the reason they cannot add the players to get over the hump. Really... was there an attempt to get into any of these big trades either this season or last? We could have gotten Shaq for Marvin... We could have gotten Amare for Smoove.The truth is that we're a funny group. We believe we have everything we need to be successful. We're already setting up to use Horf as an Excuse for this year.There is no push to go beyond the LT unless it's for D-12.With that kind of thinking, we are what we are... it's not on the contract.

Diesel, best post you have ever made IMO !

[Diesel]

I'm not sure if this is an attempt at sarcasm, or if you truly believe that statistics do not matter and shouldn't be used as a tool to help improve this team and the optimization of the money this team spends.Just for giggles though, here are the top 10 players in the league right now relative to PER:1. LeBron James/Heat2. Dwyane Wade/Heat3. Kevin Durant/Thunder4. Chris Paul/Clippers5. Kelvin Love/TWolves6. Dwight Howard/Magic7. Derrick Rose/Bulls8. Russell Westbrook/Thunder9. Al Jefferson/Jazz10. Andrew Bynum/LakersIt's not a coincidence that these guys are the best players in the league.If Joe was signed to a 5 year, $5 million contract, the Hawks would be a lot farther under the luxury tax and would be able to spend more money up to the tax to get these players. Instead of having $9 million to play with under the tax, they would have about $26 million to play with. In fact, they would be under the cap.The Hawks ownership doesn't have the means to consistently go into the luxury tax threshold, and when the new rules take effect in 2013-2014, you are going to see even fewer teams willing to go into that threshold.It isn't that hard to be smart with the money you spend, and the first thing we have to do is stop relying on volume statistics and start relying on efficiency statistics.

Let me amend that. They would decide to run the team on the cheap. They are happy with what they have. They wouldn't go after a superstar.

[KB21]

My problem with this is that you aren't or at least it doesn't look as if you are selecting or adjusting the sample. You can't compare Joe against all SGs in the league because not all SGs play in as many games or minutes so obviously if you are picking them out on their efficiency statistics especially then your stat is going to be severely skewed.

OK. He is 15th in PPP among shooting guards who have played at least 25 minutes a game and have played enough games to be qualified. He is 22nd in TS%. He is 18th in eFG%. He is 38th in FTA/FGA. He is 12th in PER. He is 38th in FTA/Possession.

Here's the best situational comparison, IMO though.

Player A at age 30 season:

15.2 PER, 0.540 TS%, 0.489 eFG%, 5.0 TRB%, 25.9 USG%, 4.7 WS

Player B at age 30 season:

17.8 PER, 0.545 TS%, 0.506 eFG%, 5.7 TRB%, 25.0 USG%, 4.4 WS

Player A is Allan Houston and his horrific contract with the New York Knicks. Of note, Houston played through his age 33 season and retired. His last full season was at age 31. He played a total of 70 games in his final two seasons.

Player B is Joe Johnson and his horrific contract with the Atlanta Hawks. It remains to be seen how much his recent injuries will take its toll on him as he ages over the next few years.

His contract will be as much of an albatross for this team as Allan Houston's was for the Knicks though.

[Diesel]

OK. He is 15th in PPP among shooting guards who have played at least 25 minutes a game and have played enough games to be qualified. He is 22nd in TS%. He is 18th in eFG%. He is 38th in FTA/FGA. He is 12th in PER. He is 38th in FTA/Possession.Here's the best situational comparison, IMO though.Player A at age 30 season:15.2 PER, 0.540 TS%, 0.489 eFG%, 5.0 TRB%, 25.9 USG%, 4.7 WSPlayer B at age 30 season:17.8 PER, 0.545 TS%, 0.506 eFG%, 5.7 TRB%, 25.0 USG%, 4.4 WSPlayer A is Allan Houston and his horrific contract with the New York Knicks. Of note, Houston played through his age 33 season and retired. His last full season was at age 31. He played a total of 70 games in his final two seasons.Player B is Joe Johnson and his horrific contract with the Atlanta Hawks. It remains to be seen how much his recent injuries will take its toll on him as he ages over the next few years.His contract will be as much of an albatross for this team as Allan Houston's was for the Knicks though.

Again, Allan Houston's contract was not much of an Albatrose for the Knicks. Isiah got who he wanted. IN fact, the first time they did the Allan Houston Amnesty rule, Allan Houston was not the guy that the Knicks choose to release. The problem with Allan Houston wasn't that he was overpaid and it hindered the team. The problem was that Allan Houston's Knicks were not so great.. They were a team that was championship hungry.In fact, the year you pushed out there was one of Houston's better years (age 30). His best year was (age 31). You can stat it out all you want. The truth is that he was doing well, he was just on a team that had terrible CHEMISTRY.They didn't hate Houston. 30-52 is just not a good look for a team with as many talented players as they had. Who you gonna blame. Everybody.. Including Houston.However, they didn't have short pockets.IN Joe, when you get past the stats, we don't have a Pat Ewing or a

[NineOhTheRino]

Hawks should put together a 5 min reel of JJ clips, from the past few games, with that "I can be your Hero Baby" song playing in the background.

Edited March 26, 2012 by NineOhTheRino