Joe's Beastly March.

[Eddielives]

I did not refer to you with an expletive. Reread the post. You are in fact in the Joe Hater Club. As I said before you ignore cold, hard facts and substitute your own reality to justify your hate. That, my friend, is what a "hater" is.

The only creation here is your little fan club you have created to categorize people who disagree with you and then you ascribe hate to their disagreement. That is called close-minded bigotry. What facts did I ignore? "Your" facts or "the" facts? And you did use an expletive to describe the actions of people who disagree with you and are in this club you have created. You are completely starting a flame war. No where before your incendiary comment did I say anything that was deserving of your retort.

[Diesel]

Who on this team (besides joe) has ever willed this team to a playoff win the way Joe has several times?It was mentioned that joe's game 1 in chicago was a big game that skewed his numbers for the series, but guess what!? He had a monster game 1 to start our 2nd round series and give us the lead. Why is that meaningless and how is that not performing when it matters/counts??

Exactly.To go into somebody's house and take game 1 is what every lower seeds seeks to do. That was done on the Back of Joe Johnson. Aside from that, Joe didn't have a bad series. How many of these superstars can you name shoot 48.9% from the field and they not all be dunks? Not freakin many. The Joe hate here is thick and almost to perfection...

[Eddielives]

Exactly.To go into somebody's house and take game 1 is what every lower seeds seeks to do. That was done on the Back of Joe Johnson. Aside from that, Joe didn't have a bad series. How many of these superstars can you name shoot 48.9% from the field and they not all be dunks? Not freakin many. The Joe hate here is thick and almost to perfection...

I have not said that Joe is meaningless and hasn't had any positive contribution to the Hawks in the playoffs. But he is our superstar money guy and he has failed or not lived up to the reasonable expectations way more than he has lived up to them. I know he's double-teamed. I know Al laid an egg against the Bulls. But superstars overcome the odds and go down as legends and leaders. Ask more objective nba fans around the country what they think of Joe and you'll get these types of responses..good but not great, overpaid, unreliable, etc. That doesn't mean he is worthless and isn't a well respected player. And I'm not going to debate whether regular season hot streaks are relevant to our playoff success.

[Diesel]

I have not said that Joe is meaningless and hasn't had any positive contribution to the Hawks in the playoffs. But he is our superstar money guy and he has failed or not lived up to the reasonable expectations way more than he has lived up to them. I know he's double-teamed. I know Al laid an egg against the Bulls. But superstars overcome the odds and go down as legends and leaders. Ask more objective nba fans around the country what they think of Joe and you'll get these types of responses..good but not great, overpaid, unreliable, etc. That doesn't mean he is worthless and isn't a well respected player. And I'm not going to debate whether regular season hot streaks are relevant to our playoff success.

Uhm...Nobody lives up to reasonable expectation... are you kidding me? Is Hinrich living up to 10 Million dollars per? Is Marvin living up to whatever he gets? The only players living up to expectations are Ivan and Mean Willie Green. Let's understand the whole payment scenerio. We didn't resign Joe because he's all world. We signed Joe because he's the only guy of his talent level that we can get to come to this ragedy franchise. Yeah... we overpaid. But we always do. Do we use salary as a means to describe what goes on on the court? Really? Eddie, I will be happy when the day comes that you don't know how much a player makes and you judge them for what they do on the court for your team.Isn't that what it's all about?I mean, if we were lucky enough to get Davis from Kentucky and he put up Monster numbers...Would we be sitting here saying... Wait a minute Davis... You don't make enough to put up monster numbers like that. Wait until you get your second contract so that we can pay you adequately for those type of monster numbers.You can't undervalue Joe's performance because of what the GM did!!

[Sothron]

The only creation here is your little fan club you have created to categorize people who disagree with you and then you ascribe hate to their disagreement. That is called close-minded bigotry. What facts did I ignore? "Your" facts or "the" facts? And you did use an expletive to describe the actions of people who disagree with you and are in this club you have created. You are completely starting a flame war. No where before your incendiary comment did I say anything that was deserving of your retort.

I don't put people who disagree with me in the Joe Hater Club. I specifically put people or describe to the group in a general sense when people deliberately ignore all the positive attributes and the stats that back them up for our best player and instead blindly insist that said player is some kind of horrible scrub with an albatross contract attached to him. That is what I object to. You talk about "close minded bigotry" and yet refuse to only see Joe through the prism you see him through. Hypocrisy at its finest.I did not refer to you (or anyone else) with an expletive. Saying that someone is "b*tching" is not calling them a b*tch. b*tching is a common usage term to describe excessive amount of whining and negativism. There is no truer word to use to categorize the actions of the Joe Hater Club. Ignore the facts and insert own hate filled reality. And when others reject it? b*tch, b*tch and b*tch some more.As I said in another thread I created the Joe Hater Club to combat the laughable negativity with an equally laughable amount of comedy and positivism to go with it. The Joe Hater Club exists only as long as people choose to remain in it by their own posts and actions.

[benhillboy]

The first $70 million contract was appropriate. Joe's biggest fans can't dispute he fact that his accelerated salary as he ages is a Stage 4 Tumor for this franchise, as Diesel pointed out, through no fault of his own. I don't understand the whole amnesty thing. If Joe is so dedicated to winning, any chance he'd restructure?

[Sothron]

The first $70 million contract was appropriate. Joe's biggest fans can't dispute he fact that his accelerated salary as he ages is a Stage 4 Tumor for this franchise, as Diesel pointed out, through no fault of his own. I don't understand the whole amnesty thing. If Joe is so dedicated to winning, any chance he'd restructure?

I'm not sure if he could do that under the CBA. Assuming of course he would want to do that. Diesel was correct: Joe was overpaid by our ownership because they flat out can not get a better player for that money. The only and last significant free agent signing under the A$G was in fact Joe Johnson.

[AHF]

SINCE MY LAST POST WAS OBVIOUSLY TOO NUANCED HERE IS THE CLEAR ONE:Stop distracting from a substantive discussion on Joe (or other topics) by making personal comments about other posters such as who is or isn't smart, biased, intellectually honest, a hater, etc. Instead, you can and should talk about post not being logical, being inconsistent, etc. The good news is that this thread appears to be heading that direction. Edited April 3, 2012 by AHF

[Sothron]

SINCE MY LAST POST WAS OBVIOUSLY TOO NUANCED HERE IS THE CLEAR ONE:Stop distracting from a substantive discussion on Joe (or other topics) by making personal comments about other posters such as who is or isn't smart, biased, intellectually honest, a hater, etc. Instead, you can and should talk about post not being logical, being inconsistent, etc. The good news is that this thread appears to be heading that direction.

Roger, wilco.

[ag82]

http://espn.go.com/nba/depthLooking down that list of 2s and 3s, how many of those guys would you rather have over Joe?Personally, I see Dwade, Lebron, Durant, and Kobe. A few guys on there are close like Granger, Gay, etc.. but haven't shown anything in the playoffs yet.The way I see it, Joe is the 5th best wing in the league right now after 4 hall of famers.*I forgot Pierce. At this point, I wouldn't take him over JJ though, plus I really really really don't like him. Edited April 3, 2012 by ag82

[thecampster]

Let me preface this by saying..."this is not Joe vs. Josh". This is about Joe's value. Joe didn't even have the best month (Josh +1.5 ppg in March, +6 rebounds, +.4 assists, + .4 steals, + 1.7 blocks and -.3 turnovers) and he isn't having the best year on his team. There are 16 other people in the league averaging more points per game than Joe. His rebounding and assist numbers are not max quality either. This thread is nice that Joe is having a month that is worthy of his big contract but whether that month is max contract quality or not is debatable and that month is far in excess of what he has given us in some time. This means that either he hadn't been trying before or very hurt for a very long time.

[AtLaS]

Do it when it counts?

OK.

Joe's playoffs last year..

Orlando.

18 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 3.5 apg, 40% shooting.

Not great but not bad.

Chicago.

19.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 48.9% shooting.

Would that be when "it counted"?

If you want to see Joe do it when it counts, give him a PG and a low post threat.

Where did I say he didn't perform in the playoffs last year? I just said I want to see him do it in the playoffs, and I'm not going to put much credence in March because he has one hot month every year regardless of how he plays in the playoffs. In addition, many of these games have been against subpar teams.

Regardless I still wouldn't say he played that well last postseason although I don't blame him for our loss. Horford was the biggest disappointment for me.

Joe will always be inconsistent because of the way he plays. He's the biggest 2 guard in the league yet he refuses to consistently post even though he's usually unstoppable inside. He doesn't get to the free throw line, meaning if his jumpers aren't falling he usually has a subpar game.

We will need Joe to score more than 20PPG if we are going to make any noise in the playoffs this season.

Edited April 3, 2012 by AtLaS

[benhillboy]

http://espn.go.com/nba/depthLooking down that list of 2s and 3s, how many of those guys would you rather have over Joe?Personally, I see Dwade, Lebron, Durant, and Kobe. A few guys on there are close like Granger, Gay, etc.. but haven't shown anything in the playoffs yet.The way I see it, Joe is the 5th best wing in the league right now after 4 hall of famers.*I forgot Pierce. At this point, I wouldn't take him over JJ though, plus I really really really don't like him.

True, Joe is among the best 2s, but he can't really be generally classified as such. He can bring the ball up and facilitate like a 1, score over most smaller 2s, or defend many 3s when the matchups allow. The depth at 2 guard is very shallow (much like when Jordan played, considerably limiting his competition and easing his path to championships but I digress). I compare Joe to the pool of perimeter scorers that encompasses 1s, 2s, and 3s, and there are about 5-10 more players I'd rather have when age is considered off of offensive production and efficiency alone (the Currys (healthy), D. Williams, Roses, and Irvings of the world). Of course none of them could rival Joe's defensive consistency due to his perfect NBA body that he utilizes on defense much better than offensively.

[AHF]

The depth at 2 guard is very shallow (much like when Jordan played, considerably limiting his competition and easing his path to championships but I digress).

One quick aside, even if you assume lack of depth was there at SG, the number of HOF centers in Patrick Ewing, Hakeem, David Robinson, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Robert Parish, Dikembe Mutombo, Brad Daugherty, Tom Chambers, Shaquille O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, etc. so dwarfs what we see today that I definitely do not think he had some kind of easier route to championships because he was only matching up against guys like Joe Dumars, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Mitch Ritchmond, Jeff Hornacek, Derek Harper, Dan Majerle, John Starks, etc.

[Diesel]

Let me preface this by saying..."this is not Joe vs. Josh". This is about Joe's value. Joe didn't even have the best month (Josh +1.5 ppg in March, +6 rebounds, +.4 assists, + .4 steals, + 1.7 blocks and -.3 turnovers) and he isn't having the best year on his team. There are 16 other people in the league averaging more points per game than Joe. His rebounding and assist numbers are not max quality either. This thread is nice that Joe is having a month that is worthy of his big contract but whether that month is max contract quality or not is debatable and that month is far in excess of what he has given us in some time. This means that either he hadn't been trying before or very hurt for a very long time.

If the only thing you count is p/a/r... then that may be true? However, 48% from the field. 44% from 3 and making 40 3s. Did you see how many game tying, game winning Shots that Joe has hit down the stretch? I don't think he will keep it up, but to sustain that for March is great. It's better than Josh who only increased his number of shots... Joe did all that he did and his FGA may have decreased because of the volume of shots that Josh took. (I haven't checked.). But every now and then, it's good to allow the oxen that tread in the press to get some grain.

True, Joe is among the best 2s, but he can't really be generally classified as such. He can bring the ball up and facilitate like a 1, score over most smaller 2s, or defend many 3s when the matchups allow. The depth at 2 guard is very shallow (much like when Jordan played, considerably limiting his competition and easing his path to championships but I digress). I compare Joe to the pool of perimeter scorers that encompasses 1s, 2s, and 3s, and there are about 5-10 more players I'd rather have when age is considered off of offensive production and efficiency alone (the Currys (healthy), D. Williams, Roses, and Irvings of the world). Of course none of them could rival Joe's defensive consistency due to his perfect NBA body that he utilizes on defense much better than offensively.

I think this is the primary difference.I remember Smitty. I remember one year in the playoffs, we played Charlotte... We lost. But Smitty was beastly... I mean almost jordan quality. However, Smitty couldn't stop Anthony Goldwire. Joe for all that people say about him is probably one of the most complete players that has played in the last 20 years. It's like that because there is a drought of learned basketball skills. Becuase of the drought, guys like Joe become more valuable... if you put him in the right situation.

[Eddielives]

Uhm...Nobody lives up to reasonable expectation... are you kidding me? Is Hinrich living up to 10 Million dollars per? Is Marvin living up to whatever he gets? The only players living up to expectations are Ivan and Mean Willie Green. Let's understand the whole payment scenerio. We didn't resign Joe because he's all world. We signed Joe because he's the only guy of his talent level that we can get to come to this ragedy franchise. Yeah... we overpaid. But we always do. Do we use salary as a means to describe what goes on on the court? Really? Eddie, I will be happy when the day comes that you don't know how much a player makes and you judge them for what they do on the court for your team.Isn't that what it's all about?I mean, if we were lucky enough to get Davis from Kentucky and he put up Monster numbers...Would we be sitting here saying... Wait a minute Davis... You don't make enough to put up monster numbers like that. Wait until you get your second contract so that we can pay you adequately for those type of monster numbers.You can't undervalue Joe's performance because of what the GM did!!

Nobody lives up to reasonable expectation? Surely you jest. You're going to say that only base salary or very low salary players who have any production are those who are earning their paycheck? I don't know how to respond to that because it is painting with such a broad brush and is so not true. When a player is paid top level money like Joe, that player is expected to be a superstar on the court and put butts in the seats, get tv ratings and be a team leader in the clutch. Who tunes in to see Joe play, aside from us Hawks fans and others who just happen to like him? What I'm saying is he's no Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Jordan or any of the many other players throughout history who have been at the top of the payscale and earned every bit of their paycheck due not only to their play but their leadership and their ability to draw crowds, whether they were at home or on the road. Joe is not a strong leader and he certainly isn't a national draw in terms of ratings or marketability. I'm glad you can admit we did overpay for Joe and I agree with your reasoning as to why. But that doesn't mean it was the wisest decision and I certainly don't have to like it or put on rose colored glasses that filter out his pay and only see that he is a good player with skill. That is impossible for me to do.

[Eddielives]

I don't put people who disagree with me in the Joe Hater Club. I specifically put people or describe to the group in a general sense when people deliberately ignore all the positive attributes and the stats that back them up for our best player and instead blindly insist that said player is some kind of horrible scrub with an albatross contract attached to him. That is what I object to. You talk about "close minded bigotry" and yet refuse to only see Joe through the prism you see him through. Hypocrisy at its finest.I did not refer to you (or anyone else) with an expletive. Saying that someone is "b*tching" is not calling them a b*tch. b*tching is a common usage term to describe excessive amount of whining and negativism. There is no truer word to use to categorize the actions of the Joe Hater Club. Ignore the facts and insert own hate filled reality. And when others reject it? b*tch, b*tch and b*tch some more.As I said in another thread I created the Joe Hater Club to combat the laughable negativity with an equally laughable amount of comedy and positivism to go with it. The Joe Hater Club exists only as long as people choose to remain in it by their own posts and actions.

How do you know that I am deliberately ingoring Joe's positive attributes? Are you a psychic? My position here is a very simple one. He hasn't shown that he can lead this team to a championship and be a consistently clutch player in the playoffs. I guess that makes me a member of your cute club. Hypocrisy? Define hypocrisy and please show me where I am saying one thing while not believing it or acting in a way that is contrary to anything I have said. I think you may have hypocrisy confused with another term.Not referring to me with an expletive? Why was your word not allowed to be viewed? Saying people are b*tching and whining, is in my opinion, disrespectful and only lowers the tone of the conversation down to grade school level. Think about it and I'm sure you will understand. Okay, so the Joe Hater club is for your amusement. Got it. That's funny. And to think before your response today that I thought you were one of the coolest squawk members and even believed you back when you were being attacked for being an inside source.

[Diesel]

Nobody lives up to reasonable expectation? Surely you jest. You're going to say that only base salary or very low salary players who have any production are those who are earning their paycheck? I don't know how to respond to that because it is painting with such a broad brush and is so not true. When a player is paid top level money like Joe, that player is expected to be a superstar on the court and put butts in the seats, get tv ratings and be a team leader in the clutch. Who tunes in to see Joe play, aside from us Hawks fans and others who just happen to like him? What I'm saying is he's no Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Jordan or any of the many other players throughout history who have been at the top of the payscale and earned every bit of their paycheck due not only to their play but their leadership and their ability to draw crowds, whether they were at home or on the road. Joe is not a strong leader and he certainly isn't a national draw in terms of ratings or marketability.

I'm glad you can admit we did overpay for Joe and I agree with your reasoning as to why. But that doesn't mean it was the wisest decision and I certainly don't have to like it or put on rose colored glasses that filter out his pay and only see that he is a good player with skill. That is impossible for me to do.

I'll make it real easy for you.....

Here's the top 20 highest paid players...

1. Kobe Bryant LA Lakers

$25,244,000

2. Rashard Lewis Washington

$22,152,000

3. Tim Duncan San Antonio

$21,300,000

4. Kevin Garnett Boston

$21,200,000

5. Gilbert Arenas Orlando

$19,569,308

6. Dirk Nowitzki Dallas

$19,092,873

7. Pau Gasol LA Lakers

$18,714,150

8. Carmelo Anthony New York

$18,520,000

9. Amare Stoudemire New York

$18,217,705

10. Joe Johnson Atlanta

$18,038,573

11. Dwight Howard Orlando

$17,885,400

12. Elton Brand Philadelphia

$17,059,726

13. Deron Williams New Jersey

$16,359,805

14. Chris Paul LA Clippers

$16,359,805

15. Kevin Durant Oklahoma City

$16,324,500

16. LeBron James Miami

$16,022,500

17. Chris Bosh Miami

$16,022,500

18. Dwyane Wade Miami

$15,512,000

19. Paul Pierce Boston

$15,333,334

20. Baron Davis Cleveland / New York

$15,302,181

In your opinion, how many (and who) is living up to their salaries THIS YEAR?

Let me guess what will happen here. You will do a lot of heeing and hawing and telling me about 2005 stats and stuff like that.. but you won't dare touch this year because if you did, you'd have to admit that prolly more than 50% of these guys are not.

Again, we can't hold Joe responsible for a GM error and we can't undervalue his efforts based on a GM error.

[Diesel]

1. Kobe Bryant LA Lakers $25,244,000

2. Rashard Lewis Washington $22,152,000

3. Tim Duncan San Antonio $21,300,000

4. Kevin Garnett Boston $21,200,000

5. Gilbert Arenas Orlando $19,569,308

6. Dirk Nowitzki Dallas $19,092,873

7. Pau Gasol LA Lakers $18,714,150

8. Carmelo Anthony New York $18,520,000

9. Amare Stoudemire New York $18,217,705

10. Joe Johnson Atlanta $18,038,573

11. Dwight Howard Orlando $17,885,400

12. Elton Brand Philadelphia $17,059,726

13. Deron Williams New Jersey $16,359,805

14. Chris Paul LA Clippers $16,359,805

15. Kevin Durant Oklahoma City $16,324,500

16. LeBron James Miami $16,022,500

17. Chris Bosh Miami $16,022,500

18. Dwyane Wade Miami $15,512,000

19. Paul Pierce Boston $15,333,334

20. Baron Davis Cleveland / New York $15,302,181

[thecampster]

If the only thing you count is p/a/r... then that may be true? However, 48% from the field. 44% from 3 and making 40 3s. Did you see how many game tying, game winning Shots that Joe has hit down the stretch? I don't think he will keep it up, but to sustain that for March is great. It's better than Josh who only increased his number of shots... Joe did all that he did and his FGA may have decreased because of the volume of shots that Josh took. (I haven't checked.). But every now and then, it's good to allow the oxen that tread in the press to get some grain.

I think this is the primary difference.

I remember Smitty. I remember one year in the playoffs, we played Charlotte... We lost. But Smitty was beastly... I mean almost jordan quality. However, Smitty couldn't stop Anthony Goldwire. Joe for all that people say about him is probably one of the most complete players that has played in the last 20 years. It's like that because there is a drought of learned basketball skills. Becuase of the drought, guys like Joe become more valuable... if you put him in the right situation.

Very wrong. Joe's shot attempts for the season 16.1...for March 16.8....March brought the attempts above 16 for the year. Joe shot "better" for March because they started running the offense through Josh and Kirk allowing Joe to take many more shots as a spot up shooter and less as a creator. Joe's turnovers for the month went up for the month.