Joe's Beastly March.

[Sothron]

We just disagree in principal. I respect your opinion in that you want to see the team in the playoffs. I like watching playoff teams as well, but I don't see a future contender in this team. We know what we have. I'd rather rebuild, simple as that. Especially in a deep draft such as this one.

If we get a new ownership that actually wants to win a title and they decide to rebuild then I am all for rebuilding. Not under the A$G though.

[AtLaS]

If we get a new ownership that actually wants to win a title and they decide to rebuild then I am all for rebuilding. Not under the A$G though.

Not that I am a fan of the ASG, Billy Knight made most of those mistakes.

[Sothron]

Not that I am a fan of the ASG, Billy Knight made most of those mistakes.

And they enabled him to do it and made matters worse with the Belkin fiasco, the Thrashers betrayal, the refusal to pay the luxury tax, etc. They have lost all credibility to Hawks fans. Heck they couldn't even SELL THE TEAM correctly because the Cuban pizza guy didn't have enough money to run a team.

[Eddielives]

Well that just it eddie.Do you ever see yourself getting beyond Joe's Salary (regardless of what he does)?If the Hawks win the Championship this year and Joe was the MVP of the playoffs, would you still be sitting here saying... "But he's still overpaid"?My contention is that yes, Joe has something to prove... as a Hawk.. but not as the guy making __________ Million dollars. Nobody is still arguing about Joe being overpaid. We know he is... so when YOU accept that, maybe we can talk more realistically about Joe's expectations. Otherwise, i have my doubts if you will ever value his contribution to our team's success.

I love how you think I do not see a human being playing basketball in joe but a paper contract personified dribbling a basketball up and down the court. I do not see myself ever getting beyond Joe's bad contract unless he contributes in a meaningful way in the playoffs, that is to make the entire nba nation stop and say, wow, Joe Johnson is playing up to his potential and contract and the Hawks are on the verge of a championship. It wouldn't even take a championship. Just consistent playoff production where he does all he can to help us win. Overall, he hasn't done that in the playoffs yet with the exception of maybe the Celtics series years ago. Joe knew when he signed this deal that he was either going to have to play at Kobe, Lebron level excellence to get a championship or take less money to allow for more help to be signed to help reach that championship. I cannot get in Joe's head and know whether he was more interested in a higher salary or being part of a championship contending team with enough financial flexibility add the help he needed.Value the teams success and Joe's contribution to it? Answer me this Diesel. Do you define success as regular season wins, playoff berths with exits in the first or second round, making it to the finals or having a championship ring? It seems to me that you seem to think the nba is a playground game where the business is to be ignored. Well it ain't a pickup game and it is a business. Contracts and their impact on a teams ability to create a team that can max out it's potential to win a ring are integral to the whole process. You can keep acting as if I'm the one having tunnel vision towards Joe if you desire. But it is you Diesel who is trying to appear to be a purist by only seeing part of the big picture. I have said I value Joe. I have said he is the best player on this team. I have even said I understand why the Hawks overpaid for him. What you haven't said is that Joe has yet to be a consistent player and up his game to lead this team further than he has so far. He is the leader of this team whether he likes it or not. Unless he puts up when it matters, despite the double or triple teams, he is going to go down as an overpaid but very solid player. It's up to Joe to perform and change the minds of his critics, not for his fans to paint half the picture of his career thus far to make him appear more valuable than he is.

[Buzzard]

Joe knew when he signed this deal that he was either going to have to play at Kobe, Lebron level excellence to get a championship or take less money to allow for more help to be signed to help reach that championship. I cannot get in Joe's head and know whether he was more interested in a higher salary or being part of a championship contending team with enough financial flexibility add the help he needed.Value the teams success and Joe's contribution to it? Answer me this Diesel. Do you define success as regular season wins, playoff berths with exits in the first or second round, making it to the finals or having a championship ring?It seems to me that you seem to think the nba is a playground game where the business is to be ignored. Well it ain't a pickup game and it is a business. Contracts and their impact on a teams ability to create a team that can max out it's potential to win a ring are integral to the whole process.

You look at JJ and compare him to Duncan. Duncan can take a hit contract wise because he has alreay made one max deal and is on his 2nd or 3rd! Big difference man and that is what you are missing. Same for Kobe who has not restructured his deal.A center like Duncan can keep playing at a high level for a lot more years than a typical SG. This is and will be JJ's only shot at a 100 million dollar deal. Unlike Duncan and Kobe who are now both on their 2nd and/or 3rd.Over their lifetimes Tim ,Kobe, Dirk etc, will make a lot more and that is how it should be. The true big picture is looking at the totals they have accumulated since being in the NBA. I am not saying JJ is worth 20 million a year, but he is a damn sight better than Lewis and Arenas. And if you look at what the HOF type players have made compared to JJ from a career perspective it is not as horrible as some make it out to be. Edited April 4, 2012 by Buzzard

[Eddielives]

You look at JJ and compare him to Duncan. Duncan can take a hit contract wise because he has alreay made one max deal and is on his 2nd or 3rd! Big difference man and that is what you are missing. Same for Kobe who has not restructured his deal.A center like Duncan can keep playing at a high level for a lot more years than a typical SG. This is and will be JJ's only shot at a 100 million dollar deal. Unlike Duncan and Kobe who are now both on their 2nd and/or 3rd.Over their lifetimes Tim ,Kobe, Dirk etc, will make a lot more and that is how it should be. The true big picture is looking at the totals they have accumulated since being in the NBA. I am not saying JJ is worth 20 million a year, but he is a damn sight better than Lewis and Arenas. And if you look at what the HOF type players have made compared to JJ from a career perspective it is not as horrible as some make it out to be.

Sure much bigger mistakes have been made and I am not missing your point about Duncan and similar players. But the big picture with JJ also includes his marketability. Let's face it. JJ is not an exciting player who makes people want to tune in. Hell, Josh Smith even never having been an all-star is more exciting and I would bet sells more jerseys and puts more butts in the seats than does JJ. I will even lower the bar for my expectations from Joe. This year, If we get to the second round of the playoffs and make it a 7 game series, Joe averages at least 25 ppg, shoots in the mid 40% range and dishes out say 4-5 assists a game, I will place my virtual lips on his butt via a strongly complimentary posting here on the squawk.

[Diesel]

I don't agree. If Joe was in the last year of his contract and making 18 million I doubt many here would be complaining. The problem is that 18 million is only the 2nd year of his contract. His salary increases for the next 4 years and he is already on the decline. That's what we complain about.

So in other words... Because his salary is going to increase, you can not appreciate what he does now?It's interesting you bring up KG... Did his salary make him any worse of a player? In fact, when he was put on a team that complimented him... Did you think about his salary? Didn't Boston give him an extension?

[Diesel]

Wasn't Donald Sterling considered one of the worst owners in the league until they drafted Blake Griffin? OKC got lucky with Durant. Chicago got lucky with Rose. Spurs with Duncan. You don't need to convince me that our owners are terrible. Bottom line, we'd have a much better shot at becoming elite by getting high draft picks than giving Joe 120 million. Joe is a borderline top 20 player. BORDERLINE. You don't give a player that kind of money and expect to compete, unless you are already competing or feel he is the missing piece. Bottom line, if we get lucky in the draft and a player becomes elite than players will want to play here regardless of ownership. I'll take that chance over sitting in mediocrity and slowly declining as a team for the next 5 years.

So you think Joe is what's wrong with the Hawks. This is a different conversation. SO let's have it.IF we took out Marvin... Hinrich... and Zaza... That's 21 Million dollars and we still have Joe, Josh, and Horf.What do you think we could get for 21 Million dollars?Do you think it's enough to get one more player or two more players that will put us in contention?Just for grins... let me put some more numbers togethers.Let's say we keep King Zaza... That leaves 16 Million.We can get a Carlos Delfino for about 5.5. That leaves us with 10 Million.The possibilities are endless at this point.

[thecampster]

So you think Joe is what's wrong with the Hawks. This is a different conversation. SO let's have it.IF we took out Marvin... Hinrich... and Zaza... That's 21 Million dollars and we still have Joe, Josh, and Horf.What do you think we could get for 21 Million dollars?Do you think it's enough to get one more player or two more players that will put us in contention?Just for grins... let me put some more numbers togethers.Let's say we keep King Zaza... That leaves 16 Million.We can get a Carlos Delfino for about 5.5. That leaves us with 10 Million.The possibilities are endless at this point.

Those numbers aren't accurate. Joe's salary is going to continue to go up and Josh only has 1 year left. He will get a raise.

[Buzzard]

Those numbers aren't accurate. Joe's salary is going to continue to go up and Josh only has 1 year left. He will get a raise.

They are accurate for now which is what we are disscussing and they are only off by about 4 million next year. A year and a half from now there is no telling what they will be or who will still be here. Seriously, you are saying we cannot do something now because of what we may or may not be paying a year and a half from now.Come to think of it that is probably close to how the ASG thinks lol

[AtLaS]

So in other words... Because his salary is going to increase, you can not appreciate what he does now?It's interesting you bring up KG... Did his salary make him any worse of a player? In fact, when he was put on a team that complimented him... Did you think about his salary? Didn't Boston give him an extension?

Joe has never been close to the level of a prime KG. KG was a top 5 player, MVP, DPOY. And, KG still took flack for his salary at times. No I did not think any less of him as a player. Boston was a contender, so of course I didn't have a problem with them paying KG. I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this as these are two completely different situations.Yes, I appreciate what Joe does, I am a fan of Joe Johnson. But, signing him to that contract prevents us from moving forward.

[AtLaS]

So you think Joe is what's wrong with the Hawks. This is a different conversation. SO let's have it.IF we took out Marvin... Hinrich... and Zaza... That's 21 Million dollars and we still have Joe, Josh, and Horf.What do you think we could get for 21 Million dollars?Do you think it's enough to get one more player or two more players that will put us in contention?Just for grins... let me put some more numbers togethers.Let's say we keep King Zaza... That leaves 16 Million.We can get a Carlos Delfino for about 5.5. That leaves us with 10 Million.The possibilities are endless at this point.

This season, Joe is making 18 million, Josh 12.4 million, Horford 12 million. That's 42.4 million between three players. The salary cap is 58 million meaning we would have 15.6 million available, not 21. Add Zaza (4.7 million) and Teague (1.5 million) and we are already down 9.4 million remaining and we need to fill 7 roster spots. And this is PURELY hypothetical that we don't have Marvin or Hinrich. We still aren't in a good position.Next season it's even worse as Josh, Joe, Zaza and Teague's salaries all increase. Joe is a borderline top 20 player and he will be taking up nearly half the salary cap, do you not see how crippling that is?

[Diesel]

Sure much bigger mistakes have been made and I am not missing your point about Duncan and similar players. But the big picture with JJ also includes his marketability. Let's face it. JJ is not an exciting player who makes people want to tune in. Hell, Josh Smith even never having been an all-star is more exciting and I would bet sells more jerseys and puts more butts in the seats than does JJ.

Wow if excitement is your drug of choice then you would have traded Duncan for Chris "Birdman" Anderson.

[Diesel]

This season, Joe is making 18 million, Josh 12.4 million, Horford 12 million. That's 42.4 million between three players. The salary cap is 58 million meaning we would have 15.6 million available, not 21. Add Zaza (4.7 million) and Teague (1.5 million) and we are already down 9.4 million remaining and we need to fill 7 roster spots. And this is PURELY hypothetical that we don't have Marvin or Hinrich. We still aren't in a good position.Next season it's even worse as Josh, Joe, Zaza and Teague's salaries all increase. Joe is a borderline top 20 player and he will be taking up nearly half the salary cap, do you not see how crippling that is?

The fact is that we do have Marvin and Hinrich who are making 15.5 Million together. That's how we choice to spend money.. that's why we're over the salary cap. IF we trade 15.5 Million, we can get 15.5 Million back in players. To my point. There's a whole lot of better complimentary players that we could have had. Right now, our bench is strong. Our core is better than it has been. I'm not promoting the doom and gloom that you are. Moreover, if you put the right players around our players, we'd be so much better.

[Eddielives]

Wow if excitement is your drug of choice then you would have traded Duncan for Chris "Birdman" Anderson.

I'll take that desperate comment to mean you have no argument left....or there is no further point in reaching you. Probably the latter.

[Diesel]

I'll take that desperate comment to mean you have no argument left....or there is no further point in reaching you. Probably the latter.

When you harp on the fact that Joe is "not exciting" as the reason you don't appreciate his game... It leads down this road.