Does he make the team better or just himself?

[Diesel]

Josh is having a great season and is definitely an impact player now.One of the things that we have noted for the past season was the couple of occasions that Josh has jumped on Teague (a young PG) about getting his shots and "passing to the scorers". It had during the first few games, he said that Teague should pass the ball more. Then it happened again a few weeks ago when he chewed Teague out.But it's not just Teague. Josh shoots more than anybody on the team. On many occassion, Josh refuses to let the PG bring up the ball. Josh misses passes to wide open players and in a lot of spots, we've had to watch Josh put up a bad shot either at the end of the game or at an important part of the game.For a long time, we've talked about Josh's heart and the fact that he loves this team. However, is it selfishness that we see or is it believe that only he can do it?Is Josh playing for his next contract?Is Josh trying to prove everybody wrong about the allstar?Is Josh Jealous of Joe and Al?Does Josh feel threatened by Teague?Does Josh respect Larry?I think this is what is at the heart of the love-hate affair that fans have with Josh. Josh is more impactful than Al or Joe... However, what Josh miss...even in his best season is that this is a team game.Josh fans would easily disregard that and say that Josh is the best teammate that you can have. And they ignore him not passing, taking most of the shots, ignoring coaching instructions, and being out to get his.I'm sure that there's some other team that would happily take Josh and Josh would be happy to go.. but whereever Josh goes, he's going to be made to be a team player.

[Gray Mule]

If we're voting, I gotta go with - All the above.

[thecampster]

Diesel,I'm going to do my best to answer this by only responding to that which deserves an answer.Josh yelling at Teague isn't the issue the board made it to be. Josh is a team captain and it's called leadership to dress someone down.Does he make his teammates better? There are numerous metrics to measure this. Let's try +/- for the year. A bad daily metric but a very good season metric.http://www.82games.com/1112/1112ATL1.HTM Josh leads the team at +162 +4.0 per 48 minutesTeague is second at +138 +3.6 per 48JJ third at +110 +3.0 per 48(for you Diesel) Marvin -10 -.4 per 48What this means is that during Josh's time on the floor this season, the team has scored 162 more points than it's opponents. JJ/Teague/Joe are on the floor together a great deal. This means 1 of 2 things. Either taking Josh off the floor affects JJ and Teague's numbers substantially or taking JJ/Teague off the floor has no effect on team play comparitably. ie, Josh on the bench has a negative effect on Teague and Joe's +-. They are better with Josh on the floor. Conversely, Since Josh's number is high it is safer to say his team plays better with him on the floor.Last year vs this. Last year we won 53.6% of our games. This year without Horford for 50, Hinrich for 18, Zaza for a few, Joe for 6 and no Crawford, etc...only Teague/Josh playing in every game our winning percentage is up (59%) with 5 home games left. With Josh playing a more central role, the team has improved with lesser personnel.On February 22, Joe sat out with the knee tendenitis. In the 6 games he was out, the Hawks were 4-2 (66.7% winning percentage). It was this game that the focus of the offense moved from JJ to Josh. Prior to this game, the Hawks were 19-13 (Al for 11 games). In this game on the 22nd, Willie Green attempted to fill Joe's role and led the team in shots taken. We lost to the Knicks by 17. After this game, Josh became the focal point of the offense and the team has gone 17-11 since. Virtually no change in winning percentage despite not having Al for any games, missing Zaza for 2 and Joe for 5. But the best indicator comes from Josh's season stats http://www.82games.com/1112/11ATL12.HTM (bottom of page). Team Offense when he's on court per 100 possessions is 105.6, off court is 100.8. +4.8Team Defense when he's on court per 100 possessions is 101.2, off court is 106.0 - 4.8 (this one is huge).Every 100 possessions we are +9.7 points better off when Josh is on the court (rounds to 9.7).By contrast we were +6.9 per 100 possessions with Teague, +3.5 with JJ.The team is better with Josh on the floor. In both JJ and Teague's case the defense is better when they are not on the floor (1.5 and 1.8 respectively), but in Josh's case the defense falls off dramatically when he exits the floor and this metric is the proof.More contrast offense and defense total.with Al +6.7Marvin -2.4Ivan -4.6Hinrich -7.7Green -9.0This shows that our emotions and eyes can be deceiving. This particular metric is directly related to wins. No player on the team directly affects the game more when discussing impact than Josh. This is season long, the best sample and really can't be argued with. This metric measures floor impact counting both offensive and defensive ends and only measures team scoring. To show you this metric is consistent, Last year Josh was +8.9, Joe was +5.8, Al +4.3. The prior year (Josh's supposed best year with a higher FG % his numbers fell to +7.7), Joe was +3.6 and Al was +10.7.Josh consistently makes his teammates better, the numbers all bear that out.

[Buzzard]

Diesel,I'm going to do my best to answer this by only responding to that which deserves an answer.Josh consistently makes his teammates better, the numbers all bear that out.

I get how Josh scoring more means our team is scoring more. But I do not see a metric that shows Teague play is better, of JJ's play is better with Josh on the floor, etc. In fact with Josh scoring more this season and taking more shots it looks to me like he is having a negative effect on JJ's numbers when compared to previous years.Maybe I am reading this wrong and believe me I do understand how we are better with Josh than without him. I think that would be a safe assumption to say concerning any of our starters vs playing a bench player instead. And it is impressive that he makes us this much better as a team.I am just trying to figure out how Teagues numbers are better with Josh on the floor than without him. And the same for JJ, Horford, ZaZa, basicly any of our starters this season...

[coachx]

.I think this is what is at the heart of the love-hate affair that fans have with Josh. Josh is more impactful than Al or Joe... However, what Josh miss...even in his best season is that this is a team game.

I'm an eye ball tester. Statistics are meaningful and have merit but so does the old eye ball test. Here is what I see.I agree that Josh is the most impactful player on the team........that can be in both a positive way and a negative way. When other players impact the game in a negative way it is typically due to physical limitations (example ZaZa not being able to finish at the rim on offense or the inability to protect the rim on defense / McGrady not having bounce to finish anymore, Collins inability to have any offensive skill, JJ's inability to finish at the rim, Marvin's bad back and humongous behind slowing him down, Hinrich;s size allowing SGs to push him around and father time preventing him from defending PGs like he once could, etc.What is so frustrating is that Josh Smith's shortcomings are only between his ears. Unlike 99% of players Josh has no physical limitations at all. That is part of what makes it so difficult for him to settle into an offensive role. The other half of the equation with Smith settling into a more efficient offensive role is that this team is lacking scorers without Jamal Crawford and Al Horford this season. We play alot of "junk offense", without a post presence, in search of scoring oppurtunites.That makes everyone on the team have to step up and score more then their actual skill-set dictates they should. Josh's scoring has gone up but his FG% has gone down b/c he is forced to take shots he should not be taking. This is especially true when our best bench scorers are out (Green and Pargo). In my mind Marvin and Teague both need to be more aggressive offensively to take some scoring burden off Josh Smith.Considering this team lost an allstar center and 6th man of the year they have really over achieved in my mind this year. Props to the team. Edited April 18, 2012 by coachx

[Guest]

There isn't a problem with Josh leading the team in shot attempts, it's the quality of the shots that are of concern. When Josh plays in the paint I can see how Joe and Teague's numbers would be better, teams would be forced to double Josh leaving Joe open and not having to battle double defenders and leaving driving lanes available for Teague. If we get the long-distamce jump shooting Josh, that is bad all around. Nobody on the defense moves, they don't even run out at Josh they just let him shoot.

[macdaddy]

The problem here is not the coach. The problem is lack of on court leadership. Josh is the kind of person that isn't afraid to step up even when its not the right thing to do. On a team with a #1 player with a stronger personality Josh's selfish play wouldn't be tolerated. But as Barkley said this is a bunch of nice guys. They all like Josh and they aren't calling him out on this stuff. In his defense, somebody has to step up and he's doing it the only way he knows how. He's on a team of guys who 'let the game come to them'As far as coaching, Woody and Drew were faced with the same issue. A team with very little depth and an extremely talented but erratic star player. Take a hard line on him and be a lottery team or pick your battles, try to limit foolishness and be a 3 or 4 seed. I guarantee if our backup power forwards weren't Vlad, Joe Smith, Josh Powell you would get more tough love from the coach.

[Buzzard]

The problem here is not the coach. The problem is lack of on court leadership. He's on a team of guys who 'let the game come to them'As far as coaching, Woody and Drew were faced with the same issue. A team with very little depth and an extremely talented but erratic star player. Take a hard line on him and be a lottery team or pick your battles, try to limit foolishness and be a 3 or 4 seed. I guarantee if our backup power forwards weren't Vlad, Joe Smith, Josh Powell you would get more tough love from the coach.

I think its both. And who plays and who sits is always on the coach. LD or Woody could sit Smoove anytime during some of those horrendous losses we suffer. Games against LA, Orlando, San Antoinio etc...Smoove decides he is Dirk or Reggie Miller in the 1st or 2nd quarter of any game we have maybe a 1 in 10 chance of winning and he sits the rest of the way. Or we get some cupcake like NJ or the Cavs and samething, sit his butt and let him pout and make those crazy faces for a while...Our coaches have not been very strong willed. Being a leader is pretty simple, be decisive and be consistent. We have never had that with Josh I am afraid.... Edited April 18, 2012 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

Diesel,I'm going to do my best to answer this by only responding to that which deserves an answer.Josh yelling at Teague isn't the issue the board made it to be. Josh is a team captain and it's called leadership to dress someone down.Does he make his teammates better? There are numerous metrics to measure this. Let's try +/- for the year. A bad daily metric but a very good season metric.http://www.82games.c...12/1112ATL1.HTMJosh leads the team at +162 +4.0 per 48 minutesTeague is second at +138 +3.6 per 48JJ third at +110 +3.0 per 48(for you Diesel) Marvin -10 -.4 per 48What this means is that during Josh's time on the floor this season, the team has scored 162 more points than it's opponents. JJ/Teague/Joe are on the floor together a great deal. This means 1 of 2 things. Either taking Josh off the floor affects JJ and Teague's numbers substantially or taking JJ/Teague off the floor has no effect on team play comparitably. ie, Josh on the bench has a negative effect on Teague and Joe's +-. They are better with Josh on the floor. Conversely, Since Josh's number is high it is safer to say his team plays better with him on the floor.Last year vs this. Last year we won 53.6% of our games. This year without Horford for 50, Hinrich for 18, Zaza for a few, Joe for 6 and no Crawford, etc...only Teague/Josh playing in every game our winning percentage is up (59%) with 5 home games left. With Josh playing a more central role, the team has improved with lesser personnel.On February 22, Joe sat out with the knee tendenitis. In the 6 games he was out, the Hawks were 4-2 (66.7% winning percentage). It was this game that the focus of the offense moved from JJ to Josh. Prior to this game, the Hawks were 19-13 (Al for 11 games). In this game on the 22nd, Willie Green attempted to fill Joe's role and led the team in shots taken. We lost to the Knicks by 17. After this game, Josh became the focal point of the offense and the team has gone 17-11 since. Virtually no change in winning percentage despite not having Al for any games, missing Zaza for 2 and Joe for 5.But the best indicator comes from Josh's season stats http://www.82games.c...112/11ATL12.HTM (bottom of page).Team Offense when he's on court per 100 possessions is 105.6, off court is 100.8. +4.8Team Defense when he's on court per 100 possessions is 101.2, off court is 106.0 - 4.8 (this one is huge).Every 100 possessions we are +9.7 points better off when Josh is on the court (rounds to 9.7).By contrast we were +6.9 per 100 possessions with Teague, +3.5 with JJ.The team is better with Josh on the floor. In both JJ and Teague's case the defense is better when they are not on the floor (1.5 and 1.8 respectively), but in Josh's case the defense falls off dramatically when he exits the floor and this metric is the proof.More contrast offense and defense total.with Al +6.7Marvin -2.4Ivan -4.6Hinrich -7.7Green -9.0This shows that our emotions and eyes can be deceiving. This particular metric is directly related to wins. No player on the team directly affects the game more when discussing impact than Josh. This is season long, the best sample and really can't be argued with. This metric measures floor impact counting both offensive and defensive ends and only measures team scoring. To show you this metric is consistent, Last year Josh was +8.9, Joe was +5.8, Al +4.3. The prior year (Josh's supposed best year with a higher FG % his numbers fell to +7.7), Joe was +3.6 and Al was +10.7.Josh consistently makes his teammates better, the numbers all bear that out.

Stats are not really the answer to this question. You talk about on the court off the court stats. The problem is who leaves with him? Does he and Joe go out most of the time? What about he and Zaza. we can't account for subbing pattern with that stat. Secondly you described a difference between last year and this year. I will argue that this year we have a much better bench than last year. Which is why I'm excited going into the playoffs and Horf coming back.I will concede that having Josh makes a difference both offensively and defensively.... but I don't think that those stats are true to weather he helps the team.Finally it's the captains job to dress somebody down.. if they are wrong. What he does with Teague is intimidate Teague in order to get more shots. Moreover, the fact that on several occasions he refuses to let the PG do their job... and in most instances end up with something boneheaded happening is disruptive.

[NineOhTheRino]

Selfish? Not a team player? Josh is second on the team in assist. Man we're reaching these days.

[Buzzard]

Selfish? Not a team player? Josh is second on the team in assist. Man we're reaching these days.

He is also 1st in number of shots taken and number of LONG RANGE shots taken so where is the reach exactly? Edited April 18, 2012 by Buzzard

[Jody23]

He is also 1st in number of shots taken and number of LONG RANGE shots taken so where is the reach exactly?

I agree. No doubt Josh is putting up numbers. However, when you objectively consider everything he's doing to get those numbers, you'll find that not everything he does is beneficial for the team.

[thatsmydawg]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Josh is having a career year. With no Al, crawford, joe hurt some and inconsistent as ever, and baby teague in his first full season as a starter and everyone else on the roster missing time, this team had a chance at a 3 seed with @ 2 weeks to go! What has been the constant this season? Mutherfuckin Smoove. Deal with it.

[Buzzard]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Josh is having a career year. With no Al, crawford, joe hurt some and inconsistent as ever, and baby teague in his first full season as a starter and everyone else on the roster missing time, this team had a chance at a 3 seed with @ 2 weeks to go!

What has been the constant this season? Mutherfuckin Smoove. Deal with it.

Here is what I know about stats, they can be helpful in dealing with a players worth and/or upside. Here is some of what I know about scorers, they can be team players and/or ball hogs....here is the question of the day:

If you are playing in a game and a really good in the paint player kept shooting the ball from downtown despite not being the best outside shooter on your team, and I mean not even the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best outside shooter, would you think he was being a ball hog or just being a really good in the paint player?

I don't think you need any stats to answer this question honestly so long as you are objectionable. This is my only argument against Smoove, I think he is really selfish and needs to grow up. Maybe it is too late, maybe he does not want to, but that is what I think of him. Team player? Not even close in my book or on my playground...

Edited April 18, 2012 by Buzzard

[thatsmydawg]

Before you kick him to the curb, remember he is one of the top 5 defensive players in the nba. His offense frustrates everyone. He isn't the first gifted athlete to be a pain in the neck. I just think its foolish for so many to want this guy out.Obvious= we need a new coach with legitimate credentials who demands some respect.

[Buzzard]

Maybe D meant his question to be more along the lines of: is Josh's recent increase in production helping or hurting the team? Its a different question that would need a different set of statistics.

I do not think it matters that much to be honest. We are a 1st or 2nd round exit whether Josh is averaging 15 ppg or 18ppg. This is honestly what I think: last season he averaged 15, this season he is averaging 18 ( might even be more by the end of the season), if we get past the 2nd round this year he proves me wrong. Edited April 18, 2012 by Buzzard

[KB21]

The problem here is not the coach. The problem is lack of on court leadership. Josh is the kind of person that isn't afraid to step up even when its not the right thing to do. On a team with a #1 player with a stronger personality Josh's selfish play wouldn't be tolerated. But as Barkley said this is a bunch of nice guys. They all like Josh and they aren't calling him out on this stuff. In his defense, somebody has to step up and he's doing it the only way he knows how. He's on a team of guys who 'let the game come to them'As far as coaching, Woody and Drew were faced with the same issue. A team with very little depth and an extremely talented but erratic star player. Take a hard line on him and be a lottery team or pick your battles, try to limit foolishness and be a 3 or 4 seed. I guarantee if our backup power forwards weren't Vlad, Joe Smith, Josh Powell you would get more tough love from the coach.

I think coaching has a big issue with this, if there is any truth to the story that was on hoopinion the other day. Ivan Johnson was apparently suspended for ripping his team in the huddle of the Boston game for their effort. It was deemed that it was not his place to do that, so he was suspended. To me, that shows that Drew doesn't have control over his team.

[thecampster]

obviously those arguing don't understand the post. The post states that the team scores more, allows less points with Josh in the game. Furthermore, the differential is greater than for any other player on the team. This is a year long metric and per Diesel's argument of sub pattern, the law of averages always bear out and we have a 3 year long metric here. Over 220 games, multiple teammates, different sub patterns, etc...There are no "circumstances" that change that.This isn't like PER or +/-. This is "TEAM" scores more, gives up less with the player on the floor. The gives up less means the team defense is better with this player on the floor. The scores more means the team offense is better with this player on the floor. The question was, does he make people better or just himself better. The obvious answer is everyone based on this metric.The eyeball test is the worst test FYI as personal bias comes into play.

[Buzzard]

The obvious answer is everyone based on this metric.The eyeball test is the worst test FYI as personal bias comes into play.

That really is not the obvious answer. If Teague played less with Josh he may be required to score more and his stats would then be better. Then again maybe his assist would be better on Josh's hot shooting nights. No doubt somone other than Smoove is benefitting someway but to stretch the small number of 10 pts across a 7 to 12 man rotation and say they all benefit is a pretty big stretch IMO. And even more in other years when his pts added by playing was even less...Now here are my two points you failed to respond to:1-On whether Josh is a selfish player:Here is what I know about stats, they can be helpful in dealing with a players worth and/or upside. Here is some of what I know about scorers, they can be team players and/or ball hogs....here is the question of the day: If you are playing in a game and a really good in the paint player kept shooting the ball from downtown despite not being the best outside shooter on your team, and I mean not even the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best outside shooter, would you think he was being a ball hog or just being a really good in the paint player?I don't think you need any stats to answer this question honestly so long as you are objectionable. This is my only argument against Smoove, I think he is really selfish and needs to grow up. Maybe it is too late, maybe he does not want to, but that is what I think of him. Team player? Not even close in my book or on my playground...2-On whether we need Josh doing more or not:I do not think it matters that much to be honest. We are a 1st or 2nd round exit whether Josh is averaging 15 ppg or 18ppg. This is honestly what I think: last season he averaged 15, this season he is averaging 18 ( might even be more by the end of the season), if we get past the 2nd round this year he proves me wrong. Edited April 18, 2012 by Buzzard

[arhawkfan]

Well my take on the stats with joe and Teague on offense is our better bench players play the same position so of course they are going to score more do I don't know how you can relate all of that. I think that JJ defers for the better of the team and it trying to pick his spots. That is just my opinion.