More Screen and Rolls Please

[Peoriabird]

We haven't ran it enough for conducive reasoning. That wasn't what Peoria insued. He said the PnR is 10x more useful than Iso Joe. I disagreed and said turnovers and wasted possenisons are the reason why. He then asked the question.

So you really believe that the ISO offense is what should be run against Boston??? Everybody else must be retarded because I don't think that there is a single person here or any expert out there that agrees with you. Heck LD doesn't even agree with you. The only person that agrees with you is Joe Johnson.

[Admin]

I keep hearing this Josh intimidating Teague talk and not giving the ball up to Teague, to bring up the floor....so what do you consider the 4 or 5 times, that Al brought the ball up the floor and on a few occasions, led the fast break? I mean Al was playing in his second game, and he did it...Is this intimidation?

No excuse for Al doing it either so he's not beyond reproach. The only problem is that I noticed quite a few times last night that Teague would slow the ball down on a break and not attack the basket unless he was one on one and I'm guessing that's due to something LD said to him about valuing possessions.

[Admin]

So you really believe that the ISO offense is what should be run against Boston??? Everybody else must be retarded because I don't think that there is a single person here or any expert out there that agrees with you. Heck LD doesn't even agree with you. The only person that agrees with you is Joe Johnson.

It's effective when it leads to an open man on the opposite side for an easy 3 like we got several times with Marvin. If it's ISO leading to a difficult shot then no it's definitely not worth it.

[HawkNJersey]

No excuse for Al doing it either so he's not beyond reproach. The only problem is that I noticed quite a few times last night that Teague would slow the ball down on a break and not attack the basket unless he was one on one and I'm guessing that's due to something LD said to him about valuing possessions.

But i see posters constantly calling Smoove out for doing it, when anyone that saw the game, would notice, it wasn't just him....I think our 2 big men, are talented to a fault. It would be hard pressed, maybe impossible to find any other NBA team, who's 2 big men are capable of leading the break like ours does. And yes they turn it over...but I also notice, when they lead the break, there isn't a big man on the other end of the court waiting on them. Both their skill sets, also lead to unmatched passing between them in the half court set, which was the more effective play, we had....IMO. Which is how, they ended up matching the starting backcourt in assists and only totaling one more turnover.

[Admin]

But i see posters constantly calling Smoove out for doing it, when anyone that saw the game, would notice, it wasn't just him....I think our 2 big men, are talented to a fault. It would be hard pressed, maybe impossible to find any other NBA team, who's 2 big men are capable of leading the break like ours does. And yes they turn it over...but I also notice, when they lead the break, there isn't a big man on the other end of the court waiting on them.Both their skill sets, also lead to unmatched passing between them in the half court set, which was the more effective play, we had....IMO. Which is how, they ended up matching the starting backcourt in assists and only totaling one more turnover.

The question is are Josh and Al better at leading the break or finishing the break? IMO it's not even close as they're both tremendous finishers and they need to be filling the lanes and waiting for a guard to find them. That's fundamental basketball at it's root level and they both ignore it and just because they're better than most bigs at it doesn't make it acceptable. No way should JJ or Teague be filling the lanes and waiting to get a pass from one of these guys. In the halfcourt I'm all for them using their skills as passers to find each other and their teammates, but give up the ball on the break and do your job and fill the lane.

[Peoriabird]

It's effective when it leads to an open man on the opposite side for an easy 3 like we got several times with Marvin. If it's ISO leading to a difficult shot then no it's definitely not worth it.

Here is the problem Dolfan...Joe is not a good passer out of the double team. He prefers to dribble and waste too much time and by the time he does pass, it results in a rush or bad shot taken by the wrong person. Josh is better decision maker but he turns that ball over too much.

[Joker]

So you really believe that the ISO offense is what should be run against Boston??? Everybody else must be retarded because I don't think that there is a single person here or any expert out there that agrees with you. Heck LD doesn't even agree with you. The only person that agrees with you is Joe Johnson.

I understand, I didn't say love it and to Dolfan point I agree. LD might not be the greatest but he gets paid millions to do this. LD knows what his personnel can and can't do.

[Admin]

Here is the problem Dolfan...Joe is not a good passer out of the double team. He prefers to dribble and waste too much time and by the time he does pass, it results in a rush or bad shot taken by the wrong person. Josh is better decision maker but he turns that ball over too much.

Joe is a very good passer, when he turns the ball over it's from overdribbling and dribbling it off of his leg or some other nonsense. Very rarely will you see him pass out of a double team and throw the ball away.

[Joker]

Joe is a very good passer, when he turns the ball over it's from overdribbling and dribbling it off of his leg or some other nonsense. Very rarely will you see him pass out of a double team and throw the ball away.

Joe makes tough passes but like Dolf said, rarely bad passes. But there are a lot of shot clock passes Joe loves when he feel he can't get his shot off.

[HawkNJersey]

The question is are Josh and Al better at leading the break or finishing the break? IMO it's not even close as they're both tremendous finishers and they need to be filling the lanes and waiting for a guard to find them. That's fundamental basketball at it's root level and they both ignore it and just because they're better than most bigs at it doesn't make it acceptable. No way should JJ or Teague be filling the lanes and waiting to get a pass from one of these guys. In the halfcourt I'm all for them using their skills as passers to find each other and their teammates, but give up the ball on the break and do your job and fill the lane.

I don't disagree with this at all, they should differ...But I do like it on some occasions. They don't turn it over that much, as the exaggeration we read on here, would make it appear. Hell Smoove had 4 turnovers last night, and we all know without looking them up, 2 of them came from him inbounding the ball...Yes, they are great finishers...but Teague, while improving, doesn't quite have the anticipation that you need from your lead guard on a break. This is why Bibby used to cross half court and throw an alley, to Smoove or Al, because he could do what we PGs call, see into the future...thats just a small point, but when's the last time you seen that pass? The counter to that, I suppose...is our bigs, limit the opportunities for that type of play by bringing the ball up the court themselves.

[Admin]

I don't disagree with this at all, they should differ...But I do like it on some occasions. They don't turn it over that much, as the exaggeration we read on here, would make it appear. Hell Smoove had 4 turnovers last night, and we all know without looking them up, 2 of them came from him inbounding the ball...Yes, they are great finishers...but Teague, while improving, doesn't quite have the anticipation that you need from your lead guard on a break. This is why Bibby used to cross half court and throw an alley, to Smoove or Al, because he could do what we PGs call, see into the future...thats just a small point, but when's the last time you seen that pass? The counter to that, I suppose...is our bigs, limit the opportunities for that type of play by bringing the ball up the court themselves.

I certainly don't disagree with the assertion about our PGs abilities with regards to things like throwing alley oops as Teague is certainly limited, but he seems to do a pretty good job getting the right man the ball at the right time when he has the chance to lead the break or he finishes it himself. And you're right there are times when I don't mind Josh or Al leading the break but if the PG is standing there next to one of them then they need to give the ball up and fill the lane. I saw at least twice last night Al lead the break with Teague standing there next to him trying to get the ball.

[benhillboy]

I don't have much of a problem with Al running the break. He seems to pick his spots when he does it based on the opposing team's personnel, and more times than not, he beats everyone down the floor, sometimes too fast, having to stop near the free throw line and look around to find someone. Josh on the other hand, seems to just do it to show off and isn't as good a handler as Al. I defer to Al's BBIQ, I'd rather not have Josh think about anything.

[Diesel]

This exactly. When will the homers understand ( and that includes you Gearon and Levenson) that as long as Josh plays the way he does, it won't matter who you bring in. Dwight, CP3, Deron. Doesn't matter. This team won't truly contend because he wants his role to be way more then what it should be to the detriment of the team.

I'm not going to go that far. A vet PG or a Vet Coach can reel Josh in.. but he does have that desire to be more... His ambition is admirable.. his means are not.

[Diesel]

I keep hearing this Josh intimidating Teague talk and not giving the ball up to Teague, to bring up the floor....so what do you consider the 4 or 5 times, that Al brought the ball up the floor and on a few occasions, led the fast break? I mean Al was playing in his second game, and he did it...Is this intimidation?

No... the intimidation was Josh going through the press earlier this season after Teague had a good scoring game and saying that Teague needs to get the ball to the scorers on the team. Added to that Josh's continual ignoring of Teague.

[benhillboy]

It's funny because as a kid in the 80's, PNR wasn't run nearly as much as it is now. I read on Wiki that it came into vogue in the 90's, I'm guessing with Stock-Malone. It is now called the league's "bread and butter.". It accounted for 19% of the plays in the NBA in 04-05, I'm pretty sure it's much higher now, and I'm pretty sure we're one of the teams who run it the least. I still think Teague's jumpshot form is a reason why we don't run it as much: he releases way too low and could be easily contested by a big switching on him, along with the fact that he doesnt get some fouls he should near the rim, and some of his attempts to finish at the rim are shoddy. But surely with Al back, we should see it much more with his long strides to the hole and his already potent mid-range shot, and excellent hands for a big. They also mentioned LeBron and Ilgauskus, and they pretty much did PNR all the way to the Finals. Now if Big Z's sorry azz can make it potent, then I know Teague and Al could at least get on par with the rest of the league's success with the play.

Edited May 9, 2012 by benhillboy

[AHF]

I certainly don't disagree with the assertion about our PGs abilities with regards to things like throwing alley oops as Teague is certainly limited, but he seems to do a pretty good job getting the right man the ball at the right time when he has the chance to lead the break or he finishes it himself. And you're right there are times when I don't mind Josh or Al leading the break but if the PG is standing there next to one of them then they need to give the ball up and fill the lane. I saw at least twice last night Al lead the break with Teague standing there next to him trying to get the ball.

That was my only real frustration with Al's decision-making last night.

[Guest]

When Josh brings the ball up it's usually at a jog and he does bring the ball up a lot even when there isn't a fastbreak opportunity. Al at least pushes it.Having said that, I want the PG handling the ball on the break as much as possible with Josh and Al running hard on the wings to the front of the rim for an easy two points. It's quite simple.

[Joker]

That was my only real frustration with Al's decision-making last night.

Al was still rusty, he made some decisions I would expect from Josh but not from him.

[thecampster]

@Dolf, Josh didn't even do this for Bibby much less Deron or CP3. . Al snd Joe did the samething to Jeff too. Jeff can't play PG. Nuff said'

So...someone pee'd in your cheerios again today huh?

[thecampster]

It's funny because as a kid in the 80's, PNR wasn't run nearly as much as it is now. I read on Wiki that it came into vogue in the 90's, I'm guessing with Stock-Malone. It is now called the league's "bread and butter.". It accounted for 19% of the plays in the NBA in 04-05, I'm pretty sure it's much higher now, and I'm pretty sure we're one of the teams who run it the least. I still think Teague's jumpshot form is a reason why we don't run it as much: he releases way too low and could be easily contested by a big switching on him, along with the fact that he doesnt get some fouls he should near the rim, and some of his attempts to finish at the rim are shoddy. But surely with Al back, we should see it much more with his long strides to the hole and his already potent mid-range shot, and excellent hands for a big. They also mentioned LeBron and Ilgauskus, and they pretty much did PNR all the way to the Finals. Now if Big Z's sorry azz can make it potent, then I know Teague and Al could at least get on par with the rest of the league's success with the play.

Less Pick and Roll in th 80's....really? There was no hand check rule back then. Players were leaned on all the time. Picks were the primary way to free up a shooter. First thing you are taught in peewee basketball is to set a pick. The second thing was to call it out so your team mate didn't run flat into a big guy setting one.