Seem like Hawks fans still don't know what hawks Need

[Plainview1981]

The team needs a defensive bigman more than it needs a low post scoring threat at the power positions. What it needs most is scorers that can do so consistently and efficiently, i.e. guys that can penetrate and get to the free throw line rather than guys who need 20 shots to get you 18 points if that.

OKC is a contender without a single guy that can score in the post, Chicago constantly subs Boozer out in favor of the defensive trio of Noah, Taj and Asik, Boston just knocked us out with Garnett hitting 20 footers, Philadelphia has Brand but he's always been a jumpshooter as well, Denver took the Lakers to 7 utilizing bigs that can only score through energy and hustle. You can get it done in the league without a guy you can throw the ball down into because overall all you need is a guy or guys that get you easy points.

But both Westbrook and Durant were in the top ten in free throws attempted:

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/free-throws/sort/avgFreeThrowsAttempted/seasontype/2

While that's not scoring in the post it's far better than just shooting jumpers.

[MaceCase]

So the last two guys obviously didn't read my post..... -___-

I mean I bolded the main points and everything....

Right there and all....

But somehow they disagree......

Only to give examples that prove the point I was making.....

Sigh.

Anyway let me just add on to the example that I made to make my original point that people seem to like to repeat without giving me credit on clear:

The team would benefit far more from having a Harden and Stiemsa on the roster than they would guys like Al Jefferson and Elton Brand because there are more benefits to a guy that can get 10+ free throw attempts a night and hit close to 90% of them with a big that has a defensive impact than guys who can get you 20 points on 20 shots because they score 50% in the post but never take FTs and have little to no impact defensively outside of rebounds.

Post scoring from bigmen is overrated. It's not without coincidence that guys like Dwight, Amare and Griffin who happen to have the least polished post games dominate scoring while guys like Kaman, Boozer and Jefferson that have entire arsenals of post moves have little to zero impact on wins. It's because of FTs, they are easy points that guys can hit on a higher percentage than they can from the field and it has the extra benefit of forcing the opposing teams to adjust because of foul trouble. Guys like Jefferson, Boozer, etc. have FTrates that would only impress Joe.

[Diesel]

So the last two guys obviously didn't read my post..... -___-

I mean I bolded the main points and everything....

Right there and all....

But somehow they disagree......

Only to give examples that prove the point I was making.....

Sigh.

Anyway let me just add on to the example that I made to make my original point that people seem to like to repeat without giving me credit on clear:

The team would benefit far more from having a Harden and Stiemsa on the roster than they would guys like Al Jefferson and Elton Brand because there are more benefits to a guy that can get 10+ free throw attempts a night and hit close to 90% of them with a big that has a defensive impact than guys who can get you 20 points on 20 shots because they score 50% in the post but never take FTs and have little to no impact defensively outside of rebounds.

Post scoring from bigmen is overrated. It's not without coincidence that guys like Dwight, Amare and Griffin who happen to have the least polished post games dominate scoring while guys like Kaman, Boozer and Jefferson that have entire arsenals of post moves have little to zero impact on wins. It's because of FTs, they are easy points that guys can hit on a higher percentage than they can from the field and it has the extra benefit of forcing the opposing teams to adjust because of foul trouble. Guys like Jefferson, Boozer, etc. have FTrates that would only impress Joe.

I don't think that post scoring from big men is overrated. I have to vehemently disagree with that notion. Your information is terribly skewed... Dwight for instance... Dwight requires a double team and he has the dumbest coach in the game. 2 years ago when we played Orlando in the playoff... you can't tell me that Dwight's inside presence on offense wasn't what caused our downfall. He was putting up big numbers and we went to Double him and his shooters got off. LD figured out that Orlando lives and dies by the three and Dwight was merely a decoy. So last year in the playoffs, we single covered him and played hard defense on the perimeter and we beat them in 6. Why? As great as Dwight is, he's not going to score 100.

Griffin was nothing without Paul.

Amare has always had a good team but don't forsake those last few Phoenix teams.

Our team is made for a scorer like Al Jefferson. You just can't imagine how open the court would be for a guy like Joe if we had a guy in the low post who could score 50% of the time.

In fact, a Josh for Jefferson trade would make us 10 games better and would probably get us out of the 2nd round. Offensively, we'd be too strong. (granted, we'd need a good bench with a defensive big).

Now back to your statement about Harden.

I think there needs to be a Harden rule. The rule is that you have to realize that Harden has a lot of freedom because he plays with two ALL NBA guys.

I mean, how many wide open looks did Kerr, Armstrong, and Paxson get when they played for the Bulls??

It's a hallmark of basketball... Spread the floor with scorers and watch guys who are average become very good. And guys who are very good become great.

[Gray Mule]

Surely they can't do it every time, but after watching the Thunder

destroy the Lakers in game one, could we have some scorers like

that. Inside, outside, all over the court, they burned the net.

We wrongly thought that the Celtics would look like old, tired men.

They didn't. KG played like he was 25 at most. He seemed to be

drinking from the fountain of youth.

Last night, the Lakers looked old and slow. It may have been for only

one game. Everything may be different next time. Laker fans had better

hope so. The teams looked like an eighteen wheeler and a sports car

in a drag race. Thunder were everywhere and the Lakers couldn't catch up.

Yeah, we desperately need that big man, that rebounder that can score some.

And, we need someone to penetrate like JT does. Finallly, we need players

who can shoot a high % from free throw land. What's the use of drawing the

foul if you can't hit the shot, once you get the call.

[MaceCase]

Diesel, Your entire post is a mixture of bull shit and only plays back into the point that I made originally. How is it that when the Hawks chose to double Dwight and let the rest of his team beat us the team was walloped but when they single covered him and let him go for 40 the Hawks won handedly proof of the importance of post scoring? I'll save you the trouble, it isn't.Griffin was an All Star and Rookie of the Year before Paul so you are showing your typical ignorance.What does Amar'e's teams have to do with the fact he has no low post game to speak of and yet managed to be a dominant factor for most of his career? Even his NY teams with their poor construction have been playoff worthy.No Jefferson would not "open the court" because he is a blackhole offensively, needs a lot of touches to score 20 points, doesn't force the defense to react to him and foul unlike Dwight but just like Dwight can't pass worth a damn to fully take advantage of defensive coverages. There is a reason why guys like him, Kaman, Boozer, and Brand even have had such little impact on winning teams. Can't just be a coincidence that you can count all of their playoff appearances on one hand and the one that got there the most always did so as a tertiary character. Why? Well because shooting 50% but still needing 20 shots to get 20 points is not a difficult achievement. Josh nearly did it on much worse shooting percetages. The top players in the league facilitate points through more than just field goal attempts.You are only showing further ignorance by placing Harden in the same stratosphere as Paxson and Kerr. I'd like to know how many 6th man of the year awards they won and he can't have the rule named after him anyway as it's already called the Emanuel Ginobili Rule.

[NineOhTheRino]

after all these years the Hawks still need players at the 1 and 5 positions.

[Joker]

Diesel, Your entire post is a mixture of bull shit and only plays back into the point that I made originally. How is it that when the Hawks chose to double Dwight and let the rest of his team beat us the team was walloped but when they single covered him and let him go for 40 the Hawks won handedly proof of the importance of post scoring? I'll save you the trouble, it isn't.Griffin was an All Star and Rookie of the Year before Paul so you are showing your typical ignorance.What does Amar'e's teams have to do with the fact he has no low post game to speak of and yet managed to be a dominant factor for most of his career? Even his NY teams with their poor construction have been playoff worthy.No Jefferson would not "open the court" because he is a blackhole offensively, needs a lot of touches to score 20 points, doesn't force the defense to react to him and foul unlike Dwight but just like Dwight can't pass worth a damn to fully take advantage of defensive coverages. There is a reason why guys like him, Kaman, Boozer, and Brand even have had such little impact on winning teams. Can't just be a coincidence that you can count all of their playoff appearances on one hand and the one that got there the most always did so as a tertiary character. Why? Well because shooting 50% but still needing 20 shots to get 20 points is not a difficult achievement. Josh nearly did it on much worse shooting percetages. The top players in the league facilitate points through more than just field goal attempts.You are only showing further ignorance by placing Harden in the same stratosphere as Paxson and Kerr. I'd like to know how many 6th man of the year awards they won and he can't have the rule named after him anyway as it's already called the Emanuel Ginobili Rule.

I have to agree.

[NineOhTheRino]

Things have changed. Low post scoring in the NBA is going the way of the feature running back in the NFL. If the team scores at a decent percentage why be concerned about where the shots are coming from? The term low post sounds old school. Yeah heaving defensive presence down low will always be a plus, but the idea that every team has to score by playing inside-out is silly and archaic.Just last night I was perplexed listening to Chuck and Shaq talk as if OKC had no chance since they were at a huge disadvantage at scoring in the post.

Edited May 15, 2012 by NineOhTheRino

[benhillboy]

Intereting posts. As nine said, it's been clear for years we need a quality 5 with a semblance of a block game and a 1 who is steady and consistent. I've been trying to figure out for years how we could accumulate about 5 more free throw attempts a game than we've been having. As I've said for years, Joe as a top usage guy is just insane with his total ineptitude near the rim, but that doesn't excuse Josh and Al from never driving as well. Teague definitely has the ability to drive the hole and sometimes flush, but he isn't a foul-drawer inside. It's puzzling, one game he'll drive the hole 10 times. Very next game, twice.

[Diesel]

Diesel, Your entire post is a mixture of bull shit and only plays back into the point that I made originally. How is it that when the Hawks chose to double Dwight and let the rest of his team beat us the team was walloped but when they single covered him and let him go for 40 the Hawks won handedly proof of the importance of post scoring? I'll save you the trouble, it isn't.Griffin was an All Star and Rookie of the Year before Paul so you are showing your typical ignorance.What does Amar'e's teams have to do with the fact he has no low post game to speak of and yet managed to be a dominant factor for most of his career? Even his NY teams with their poor construction have been playoff worthy.No Jefferson would not "open the court" because he is a blackhole offensively, needs a lot of touches to score 20 points, doesn't force the defense to react to him and foul unlike Dwight but just like Dwight can't pass worth a damn to fully take advantage of defensive coverages. There is a reason why guys like him, Kaman, Boozer, and Brand even have had such little impact on winning teams. Can't just be a coincidence that you can count all of their playoff appearances on one hand and the one that got there the most always did so as a tertiary character. Why? Well because shooting 50% but still needing 20 shots to get 20 points is not a difficult achievement. Josh nearly did it on much worse shooting percetages. The top players in the league facilitate points through more than just field goal attempts.You are only showing further ignorance by placing Harden in the same stratosphere as Paxson and Kerr. I'd like to know how many 6th man of the year awards they won and he can't have the rule named after him anyway as it's already called the Emanuel Ginobili Rule.

You answered your own question Mace. Your points while interested didn't address the effect of the big man. It addressed the weakness of the team surrounding him. Like I said, Howard has the dumbest coach in the game. How do you have a Howard and for years have relied on the three point shooters rather than your big.Griffin was an Allstar but look at what he had around him. NOT enough to get him to the playoffs. He gets Paul and some tough guys and guess what, he's going to the second round. You make my point again, look at the surroundings.Why is that my point? Because we already have the surroundings for a big man to thrive. We need a low post scorer. We have shooters, we have a slashing OG. We need somebody who we can dump the ball down to in the low post and he will come away with 2 points 1/2 of the time.Now, what you said is that the Low Post scoring Big man is not necessary. That is such a bad conclusion based on the evidence you've presented. You present teams that can't get it done and they have a big man. I say those team are nothing without the big man. Again, case in point, Orlando this year. Once they lost Dwight, the cast around him could not beat the NJ Generals. Again... The Big man made the team. For us, we lost our big and kept winning. We have the surroundings for a low post scorer to thrive.Finally, explaination on Amare.With Nash... In D'Antonio's system, any big can look good. Didn't Frenchy become a C out in Phoenix?

Diaw averaged 13.3 points, 6.9 rebounds, 6.2 assists and 1.05 blocks per game on .526 field goal percentage and 73.1% from the free throw line in the 2005–06 season for the Phoenix Suns, playing mostly small forward and then center in absence of the injured big men Amar'e Stoudemire and Kurt Thomas. During the 2006 NBA playoffs as the Suns' starting center, Diaw averaged 18.7 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 1.1 blocks per game on .526 field goal percentage and 76% at the free throw line in 3 rounds of the playoffs.

Diaw was so good that Charlotte made him the principle player when they sent Richardson and Dudley to Phoenix in what I would like to call the fool's gold trade.Why do you think Amare is struggling now?

[Diesel]

Intereting posts. As nine said, it's been clear for years we need a quality 5 with a semblance of a block game and a 1 who is steady and consistent. I've been trying to figure out for years how we could accumulate about 5 more free throw attempts a game than we've been having. As I've said for years, Joe as a top usage guy is just insane with his total ineptitude near the rim, but that doesn't excuse Josh and Al from never driving as well. Teague definitely has the ability to drive the hole and sometimes flush, but he isn't a foul-drawer inside. It's puzzling, one game he'll drive the hole 10 times. Very next game, twice.

With the lack of slashers and inside play, our team need screams loudly for a low post scoring big.I would take a crazy D. Cousins and would be happy.The kid coming out of Kentucky this year is going to turn back the clock very similarly to the way Duncan did.Nine asked why do you need a low post scorer..simple.. it's a lot easier to score closer to the basket. Outside shooters are supposed to feed off of the work that has gone on inside.Maybe I'm from the Houston Rockets championship school of thought but inside outside play works very well.

[Jody23]

With the lack of slashers and inside play, our team need screams loudly for a low post scoring big.I would take a crazy D. Cousins and would be happy.The kid coming out of Kentucky this year is going to turn back the clock very similarly to the way Duncan did.Nine asked why do you need a low post scorer..simple.. it's a lot easier to score closer to the basket. Outside shooters are supposed to feed off of the work that has gone on inside.Maybe I'm from the Houston Rockets championship school of thought but inside outside play works very well.

As long as the Hawks remain a jump shooting team, they will stay mediocre. They need to stop wasting Al and find a center so that he can play the four.

[NineOhTheRino]

As long as the Hawks remain a jump shooting team, they will stay mediocre. They need to stop wasting Al and find a center so that he can play the four.

Stop wasting Al? Al is pretty much a pick-n-pop finesse player. He has not been anything close to a PF or C since Woody left. I think that has less to do with a team philosophy and more to do with Al (and Josh) following JJ's lead of avoiding touching the opposing team's players at all cost.

[frosgrim]

Until we get new ownership, this all moot.

[Joker]

Stop wasting Al? Al is pretty much a pick-n-pop finesse player. He has not been anything close to a PF or C since Woody left. I think that has less to do with a team philosophy and more to do with Al (and Josh) following JJ's lead of avoiding touching the opposing team's players at all cost.

I think Al is wasted more by playing without a PnR PG more so than playing center.He plays like a big man to me.

[Jody23]

Stop wasting Al? Al is pretty much a pick-n-pop finesse player. He has not been anything close to a PF or C since Woody left. I think that has less to do with a team philosophy and more to do with Al (and Josh) following JJ's lead of avoiding touching the opposing team's players at all cost.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he make the all star team and lead this team in rebounding after Woody left? So how's that not playing like a F/C? I think his play would have even greater impact if he wasn't forced to play out of position because everyones waiting for Josh to finally get it and after eight years, it hasn't happened. It seems most basketball analysts agree.