A real honest Joe Johnson question

[thecampster]

We've heard from posters on the board this week that the Celtics only fear Joe Johnson and that is why they double him with the ball.My question is: "Is it possible that they double Joe because they don't believe he can effectively pass out of the double team?"He shot 37% for the series and average 2.7 turnovers with 3.5 assists. But the thought that bugged me today when thinking about this is "if Joe was doubled so often, there had to be someone open that he only got the ball to 3.5 times a game. When doubled that often, aren't 3.5 assists a given?"Was that part of the Celts strategy? That Joe is not an effective passer out of the double team.

[Admin]

Joe is a good passer but he's slow to react to the double sometimes and that gets him in trouble. Plus as the Hawks players said the Celtics are the best halfcourt defense team in the league and they rotate VERY quickly and recover from double teams better than most teams.

[Joker]

Hawks = Bad halfcourt team with no #1 optionCeltics = Best halfcourt D in the NBA with SAS.

[MaceCase]

Doubling Joe is actual sound defensive strategy unlike other number one options that make teams pay for consistently bringing a double.

[Buzzard]

Doubling Joe is actual sound defensive strategy unlike other number one options that make teams pay for consistently bringing a double.

Yes. JJ is a #2 or #3 option on most playoff teams, that makes all our #2 options 3rd or 4th. Taking JJ out pretty much takes any resemblence to a decent offense out of the picture. Horford can help with this but we still need a better offensive player as a #2 than Smoove. Josh pretty much sucks in a half court game. Sorry buts it is obviously the truth. Edited May 16, 2012 by Buzzard

[coachx]

We've heard from posters on the board this week that the Celtics only fear Joe Johnson and that is why they double him with the ball.My question is: "Is it possible that they double Joe because they don't believe he can effectively pass out of the double team?".

I think its more an issue of not fearing the people Joe would be passing out of the double team too. Passing to Josh Smith for a permimeter jumper played right into the Celtics game plan. That willingness to play to your own weakness, and into the hands of the opposing coach's scheme, is what keeps Josh off allstar teams. Thankfully Marvin and Hinrich had spurts where they were hot from outside.Its also an issue of not drawing fouls when double teamed.Of course forcing turnovers out of double teams is the ideal result. Edited May 16, 2012 by coachx

[coachx]

Yes. JJ is a #2 or #3 option on most playoff teams, that makes all our #2 options 3rd or 4th. Taking JJ out pretty much takes any resemblence to a decent offense out of the picture. Horford can help with this but we still need a better offensive player as a #2 than Smoove. Josh pretty much sucks in a half court game. Sorry buts it is obviously the truth.

The teams actually looks suprisingly good without JJ and with Teague handling the ball more. I hope to see more of JJ playing off the ball into the future. Teague will only be 24 next year. Hopefully we some growth.

[benhillboy]

I wish no ill-will toward the guy, but it's good to see many of you finally coming around. Of course they doubled him because he doesn't have the tools or savviness to defeat it. There are multiple ways to combat a double. Most notably for players with actual athleticism and superior dribble, just split the damn thing. Joe is slow. Always has been. Good teams welcome doubles and exploit them. With Joe, there are so many advantages to it because his feet and thought processes are simply slower than the average, All-Star level guard with athleticism. With True, well-rounded scorers, it's an opportunity for a higher percentage shot if you can escape or find an open man who has a shot or he can swing it once more for a wide open look. Two way advantage for offense. With Joe though, his momentum and ball movement is halted, time wasting off the shot clock with the higher probability of creating a turnover. Two way advantage for the defense. The argument of "whos he gonna pass it to" is null and void. We had 4 guys along with Joe who shoot in the high .300s from three. The person he passes to also has an obligation to find the next best shot. Again, thats what good teams do anyway (see Spurs or Heat with Bosh) Doc knew full well that Joe struggles with pressure, just like the regime who came before who got rid of him before his rookie season ended. Kyree Irving can exploit doubles better than Joe.

Edited May 16, 2012 by benhillboy

[macdaddy]

The Celtics know what Joe can do to them if he's allowed to get hot. So shutting him down from the start is the goal even if they get beat by some others. Boston knows that if they can keep him from going for 30 then when it comes down the stretch they can just foul him with no call to keep him from scoring clutch baskets.

[Diesel]

We've heard from posters on the board this week that the Celtics only fear Joe Johnson and that is why they double him with the ball.My question is: "Is it possible that they double Joe because they don't believe he can effectively pass out of the double team?"He shot 37% for the series and average 2.7 turnovers with 3.5 assists. But the thought that bugged me today when thinking about this is "if Joe was doubled so often, there had to be someone open that he only got the ball to 3.5 times a game. When doubled that often, aren't 3.5 assists a given?"Was that part of the Celts strategy? That Joe is not an effective passer out of the double team.

Specific to the Cs.. when you watch their defense, those guys actually move to the ball and predict the next pass. I do wish Joe would get the ball out of his hands a lot faster, but the Cs cover the passing lanes and anticipate the next pass because they already know who is the open guy. Moreover, in their matchup zone, they leave a sweet spot for Smoove. Outside. They cover positions on the floor, the rotate to the ball within their zone but they leave the outside open because that's the shot that they wanted us to have.The other thing is that Joe was doubled with and without the ball. That's not a sign that they look for him to get the ball because he can't pass, that's a sign that they didn't want him to get the ball.

[Diesel]

Here's another thing.

Notice how in game 3. Boston didn't double Joe. AND Joe went off and almost led us to victory. Willie Green had about as clean a look as you can get on our final play from regulation.After this, Doc started back doubling Joe. Joe is a hard player to guard because of his size and ability.. but Joe is not a slasher.

[Guest]

You double the best player to disrupt the flow of the offense and make someone else beat you. Look at what San Antonio did to Chris Paul last night - double him and force others to beat you who cannot get their own shot.Additionally, Joe is too slow to make a decsion when doubled and he waits for the double sometimes instead of making a decisive more, it is more difficlut to double if he is on the move as opposed to punding the ball at a stand still. Also take into account that our players are too slow to react when Joe get double, they have to make themselves available to get the ball - too much standing around waiting for a shot, if you stand around and don't move the Celtics have a better chance of cutting of the passing lanes.

Edited May 16, 2012 by JayBirdHawk

[Eddielives]

Joe's numbers have been in steady decline for years now. The celtics don't comprise the whole league. Joe's overall ability, especially his tenacity and toughness have left him. Sure he's going to receive the most doubles but it's up to Joe to at least move the ball quickly to make them pay for doubling. It's sad but Joe just doesn't have the heart anymore to grind out a consistent and respectable offensive threat.

[Buzzard]

We've heard from posters on the board this week that the Celtics only fear Joe Johnson and that is why they double him with the ball.My question is: "Is it possible that they double Joe because they don't believe he can effectively pass out of the double team?"Was that part of the Celts strategy? That Joe is not an effective passer out of the double team.

I think you are onto part of it. JJ is our most gifted half court player so doubling him is a no brainer. Passing out of a double team requires good options to pass to in order to get an assist. Our leading scorer this season shot under .400 for the series, so not many assist generated passing the ball to Smoove.Horford is our best option for JJ IMO and Smoove is who usually ends up with ball because no one is guarding him when he plays out so far. My point is, shut down JJ in our half court offense and allow Smoove to jack up long jumpers is exactly how the C's played us.

[Cwell]

Joe has always been slow to react to the double team. good players either make their move as soon as they see it coming or pass it and get it right back if there isnt another shot open. Joe just backs up and dribbles himself into a trap and forces himself to throw up a prayer pass or shot.One thing I never understood is why did Joe put on so much weight? He has no business being the weight of a PF like he is. He was never that fast of a guy but he was alot slimmer and quicker when he first came over from PHX compared to now. He cant take anyone off the dribble so he's forced to jack up contested jumpers

[Buzzard]

Joe has always been slow to react to the double team. good players either make their move as soon as they see it coming or pass it and get it right back if there isnt another shot open. Joe just backs up and dribbles himself into a trap and forces himself to throw up a prayer pass or shot.One thing I never understood is why did Joe put on so much weight? He has no business being the weight of a PF like he is. He was never that fast of a guy but he was alot slimmer and quicker when he first came over from PHX compared to now. He cant take anyone off the dribble so he's forced to jack up contested jumpers

JJ weighs about 235. That is a PF for us but most teams its a SF at best...

[Joker]

Joe has always been slow to react to the double team. good players either make their move as soon as they see it coming or pass it and get it right back if there isnt another shot open. Joe just backs up and dribbles himself into a trap and forces himself to throw up a prayer pass or shot.One thing I never understood is why did Joe put on so much weight? He has no business being the weight of a PF like he is. He was never that fast of a guy but he was alot slimmer and quicker when he first came over from PHX compared to now. He cant take anyone off the dribble so he's forced to jack up contested jumpers

If Joe was better at the PnR, it would negate his lack of quickness but he is horrible at it. Most so than Jamal who decision making skills in the PnR was horrid. Joe is what he is. An extremely skilled SG with average athleticism and without the tools or mindset to be a #1 option.

[thecampster]

I think you are onto part of it. JJ is our most gifted half court player so doubling him is a no brainer. Passing out of a double team requires good options to pass to in order to get an assist. Our leading scorer this season shot under .400 for the series, so not many assist generated passing the ball to Smoove.Horford is our best option for JJ IMO and Smoove is who usually ends up with ball because no one is guarding him when he plays out so far. My point is, shut down JJ in our half court offense and allow Smoove to jack up long jumpers is exactly how the C's played us.

Well I'd buy that but Josh average 4.8 assists in the series...1.3 higher than Joe.

[Buzzard]

Well I'd buy that but Josh average 4.8 assists in the series...1.3 higher than Joe.

So when I say the Celtics doubled JJ because he is our best half court player you are disagreeing because Smoove had 4.8 assist a game and shot under .400 from the field? Edited May 16, 2012 by Buzzard

[AHF]

So when I say the Celtics doubled JJ because he is our best half court player you are disagreeing because Smoove had 4.8 assist a game and shot under .400 from the field?

I am guessing he was disagreeing with your statement that

not many assist generated passing the ball to Smoove.

under the notion that passing the ball to Smoove ended up with Smoove generating about 5 assists per game.s I think you guys may be talking about two different things (JJ not getting assists because Josh doesn't drill the passes he receives from Joe and Josh doing a good job generating assists after he gets the ball).