Josh and Gasol

[Joker]

Pau's numbers are down because Kobe was shooting like a madman and with the imergence of Bynum who Brown establsihed on the blocks in lieu of Pau (sending him to the high post and shooting 3's) of course his numbers are down. I'm not sure how you change the offensive philosophy making Kobe and Bynum the focus of the offense and expect Pau to have the same numbers.Josh's numbers were up because he led our team with the most shot attempts (which I don't think is a good thing) and no Al Horford.

Gasol's regression lead to Bynum emergence. Gasol would still be #2 if that was the case Jay. Brown did it right but Gasol real regression was the lost of Odom more than Brown. Odom created so many easy buckets for Gasol. He would have the same issue in Atlanta but much worse. We don't have a Odom or a Kobe.

[Joker]

I love how we take a regressing player out of a perfect situation to a bad situation and expect to him to produce for us. That's a brave logic.

[Joker]

Seriously, Gasol fans. How are we going to create easy shots for Gasol?We don't run an offense.We don't have a #1 option to get attention like Kobe.We don't even have a real center outside of Zaza.How is this going to happen? The Lakers had a lot more than we do and they still had issues creating easy shots for Gasol.

Edited May 31, 2012 by nbasuperstar40

[Guest]

Seriously, Gasol fans. How are we going to create easy shots for Gasol?We don't run an offense.We don't have a #1 option to get attention like Kobe.We don't even have a real center outside of Zaza.How is this going to happen? The Lakers had a lot more than we do and they still had issues creating easy shots for Gasol.

Gasol doesn't need "easy" shots. He actually has a post game. It's also not about only getting Pau his shots, it's about what he will bring to the overall offense, he is a great passer from the post and in general and runs the floor and he actually likes shooting from the paint. Besides I will have more confidence in him setting a pick and rolling to the basket or taking the jump shot (ala Josh) and knowing more likely than not he will hit the shot. You love to talk about BBIQ - Pau has that.

[Admin]

Gasol doesn't need "easy" shots. He actually has a post game. It's also not about only getting Pau his shots, it's about what he will bring to the overall offense, he is a great passer from the post and in general and runs the floor and he actually likes shooting from the paint. Besides I will have more confidence in him setting a pick and rolling to the basket or taking the jump shot (ala Josh) and knowing more likely than not he will hit the shot. You love to talk about BBIQ - Pau has that.

Que the "But we don't have a PnR PG" nonsense in 3,2,1 ... LOL

[Joker]

Gasol doesn't need "easy" shots. He actually has a post game. It's also not about only getting Pau his shots, it's about what he will bring to the overall offense, he is a great passer from the post and in general and runs the floor and he actually likes shooting from the paint. Besides I will have more confidence in him setting a pick and rolling to the basket or taking the jump shot (ala Josh) and knowing more likely than not he will hit the shot. You love to talk about BBIQ - Pau has that.

In LA he needed easy shots.He does have a post game but what's a post game if everything is tough. He would have to play a physical game to score without easy shots. You think he will play physical?I have no question the offense will be better but that's wasn't my question.

Que the "But we don't have a PnR PG" nonsense in 3,2,1 ... LOL

Nope, I wasn't going to bring that up at all. Edited May 31, 2012 by nbasuperstar40

[coachx]

Personally I don't think I'd trade Josh for a mid to late lottery pick and decent player(s). I'd either have to have a top 3 pick and decent player(s) or a legit equally skilled player.

Do you really think a team would trade a top #3 pick for Josh Smith and 1 year under contract ?The teams with top #3 picks are the Hornets, Bobcats, and Wizards. Why would they think Josh Smith is a better investment then a top 3 pick ?

[Admin]

Do you really think a team would trade a top #3 pick for Josh Smith and 1 year under contract ?The teams with top #3 picks are the Hornets, Bobcats, and Wizards. Why would they think Josh Smith is a better investment then a top 3 pick ?

Because Josh is in the early stages of his prime and he's a known quantity whereas there is a big chance that a lottery pick could bomb... which makes me nervous about moving Smith for a pick in the 1st place. Of course if a team were to give up a high pick to us I'm sure they'd have to work out an extension with Smith as part of a deal, otherwise that's far too big of a gamble to take.

[coachx]

Because Josh is in the early stages of his prime and he's a known quantity whereas there is a big chance that a lottery pick could bomb... which makes me nervous about moving Smith for a pick in the 1st place.Of course if a team were to give up a high pick to us I'm sure they'd have to work out an extension with Smith as part of a deal, otherwise that's far too big of a gamble to take.

Interesting logic.I personally don't buy into the "safe" philosophy when it comes to trading top #3 picks for a veteran but maybe one of these 3 teams will.Here is my personal logic of why it is a very remote possibility:1. No team bought into that logic in last year's draft. Sund tried to move Smith for Utah's #3 pick, to get Kanter, but they turned us down. Last year was a much weaker draft then this year too.2. If a team were to trade a top 3 pick they would want a promise to extend Josh.........I can't see Josh giving that promise to one of the 3 worst teams in the NBA (Hornets, Bobcats, Wizards).3. Most GMs expect their top #3 pick to better then Josh Smith........plus the $50 million in contract savings your going to save over the next 4 years.4. Does a bottom 3 team, that is very young, want Josh Smith as their veteran leader in their young locker room ?I hope I'm wrong but in my world of realistic hopes..... as good as its going to get is:pick #6 or #7 with cap fillers - B/c those teams already have very good young veterans and are close to contention.Pau GasolPrince / filler / #9Maybe Martin / pick #14 but I'm not sure if Kevin McHale wants the headache of Josh Smith.....BUT if Josh would only listen to HOF and low post guru like Kevin McHale then he could finally reach his potential.Again I hope I'm wrong and we get a better pick. Edited May 31, 2012 by coachx

[Joker]

coachx, you hate Josh Smith. He isn't that bad just like AHawks89, Josh isn't that good.

[coachx]

coachx, you hate Josh Smith. He isn't that bad just like AHawks89, Josh isn't that good.

What are you talking about ?I simply see no reason in keeping an unhappy player, who doesn't want to be here, and will walk away for nothing in free agency come 2013. Especially considering we would still be over the salary cap even if his salary were to fall off for nothing.My opinion is that the best thing to do is trade him. That has nothing to do with hate.Just b/c I don't see the logic in a team with a top #3 pick trading for Josh Smith does not mean that I hate him either.Now if Josh Smith had 3 years left under contract then it would make a whole lot more sense for a team to trade their #2 or #3 pick for him. Edited May 31, 2012 by coachx

[Admin]

Interesting logic.

I personally don't buy into the "safe" philosophy when it comes to trading top #3 picks for a veteran but maybe one of these 3 teams will.

Here is my personal logic of why it is a very remote possibility:

1. No team bought into that logic in last year's draft. Sund tried to move Smith for Utah's #3 pick, to get Kanter, but they turned us down. Last year was a much weaker draft then this year too.

2. If a team were to trade a top 3 pick they would want a promise to extend Josh.........I can't see Josh giving that promise to one of the 3 worst teams in the NBA (Hornets, Bobcats, Wizards).

3. Most GMs expect their top #3 pick to better then Josh Smith........plus the $50 million in contract savings your going to save over the next 4 years.

4. Does a bottom 3 team, that is very young, want Josh Smith as their veteran leader in their young locker room ?

I hope I'm wrong but in my world of realistic hopes..... as good as its going to get is:

pick #6 or #7 with cap fillers - B/c those teams already have very good young veterans and are close to contention.

Pau Gasol

Prince / filler / #9

Maybe Martin / pick #14 but I'm not sure if Kevin McHale wants the headache of Josh Smith.....BUT if Josh would only listen to HOF and low post guru like Kevin McHale then he could finally reach his potential.

Again I hope I'm wrong and we get a better pick.

[*]We don't know whether that rumor of the Kanter deal was legit or how hard we really pushed for it. It's possible that we wanted it and turned it down, but it's also possible that it was just a rumor.

[*]You're probably right... although who knows what Josh's motivation might be. He may want to go to a bad team and be the man there, ala JJ back when he signed with the Hawks.

[*]I think the majority of NBA GMs would be thrilled to have a player be as good as Josh is with their top 3 pick. Sure he's got moments where he's destructive, but he also has moments where he takes over the game on both ends. I bet if someone put the time in, you'd find that at least half of the top 3 picks never turn out as good as Josh.

[*]You're probably right... but you never know with the Wizards or Bobcats what they might do.

It's not very likely and unless we were to take on a seriously bad contract from one of those teams I'd say there's no chance of it happening.

Personally I'd rather move Josh for an established veteran like Gasol or Iggy but if the only options are him leaving as a FA or us getting a 5-10 lottery pick and salary filler then I'll take the pick and filler all day.

[Nicholasp27]

I'm good withGasolNoahBogut + lotto pick

[Diesel]

The problem with those of you wanting lottery picks.This year's lottery is basically 1 superstar and a bunch of projects.After Davis, this draft gets pretty ordinary. I wouldn't trade Josh for any of these guys unless that was the only choice... simply because we're no longer in project mode. Our window is about 2 yrs. We should work to build over those two years.

[Vol4ever]

The problem with those of you wanting lottery picks.This year's lottery is basically 1 superstar and a bunch of projects.After Davis, this draft gets pretty ordinary. I wouldn't trade Josh for any of these guys unless that was the only choice... simply because we're no longer in project mode. Our window is about 2 yrs. We should work to build over those two years.

Agree 110%. Davis is the jewel, everything else is costume jewelry.

[AHF]

Agree 110%. Davis is the jewel, everything else is costume jewelry.

There will be other All-Stars coming out of this draft. The challenge is identifying which ones will reach stardom.

[EazyRoc]

Right. There's a lot of good basketball players in this draft. I even think a few players will turn out to be stars.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(( clapping @ Diesel ))

The argument for trading Josh Smith for Pau Gasol was laid out perfectly by him and by a few others. The issue isn't whether most fans want Josh back. The issue is if Josh himself even wants to come back? And if the answer to that is NO, the Hawks must try to get the best available piece we can for him. We can't afford to lose him for nothing.

There's no way the Hawks can afford to do nothing, and let Josh hold all of the cards come 2013. This is exactly what happened in the Joe Johnson situation. JJ wasn't about to sign a 4 year - 60 mill extension, because he knew he could get at least 50% more money. JJ played his cards perfectly, and eventually the Hawks signed him to an insane contract, for fear of losing him and not being able to replace his production on both ends of the floor.

Now we see Smith about to be in that same situation. But unlike JJ, an extra 20 million may not be enticing enough for Josh to stay in ATL. He may value fame and stardom on a higher profile team, than coming back to ATL for a max contract. This is not saying that he'll take extremely less money somewhere else. But I can see a scenario in which Josh takes a 4 year max contract with another team, than take a 5 year max contract to stay in ATL.

@ nbasuperstar

Do you know who the departure of Josh Smith might help the most?

JEFF TEAGUE

Because it is Teague whose full potential is being held by not only by the coach, but also by some of the things that Josh Smith does. And that major thing . . is Josh bringing the ball up the court after grabbing a defensive rebound, despite Teague being right beside that dude. We can see Teague sometimes sighing or having a look of disgust, when Josh just blows that dude off and brings the ball up himself.

Instead of filling the lane and receiving the pass back and dunking ( ala Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, or Blake Griffin ), Josh wants to make the play all by himself. Sometimes he can. Other times, it turns into bad turnovers. I wonder what percent of Josh's turnovers come on these "Josh-breaks" in which he ends up turning the ball over.

Josh is undeniably a very good talent. At times, he's the best player on the court. Problem is, sometimes he's the worst player on the court. The freelance nature of his game is what keeps this team "out of balance". Instead of playing like we need him to play, he plays like HE wants to play. And that's a recipe for disaster at times.

It's almost like when Allen Iverson went to Denver. The AI - Melo combo was a potent duo to throw at people offensively. Eventually though, it got to the point in which who was going to take the "big shot" . . Iverson or Melo? And with Iverson, the team was defensively out of balance.

Eventually, Denver had to make a decision whether to trade for Chauncey Billups ( when Detroit decided that they needed a "change" ). Despite Iverson playing great ball in Denver, that team was still "out of balance". Chauncey was the more stable PG they needed, who brought balance to the team.

Josh isn't to blame for the Hawks as a whole for not being great. That falls on management. But like with all of the dribbling and indecisiveness that JJ does at times, the "wildness" in Josh's game prevents us from reaching our potential.

Even if we trade Josh for Gasol, and Gasol comes here and averages 15 ppg and 8 rebounds, the Hawks could still be better. They could be better if Gasol continues to shoot 50%+ from the field and adequately defend his position ( which he can do, despite popular belief ). The "new Hawks" could look like this

PG: Jeff Teague - 15 ppg . . 6 asst . . 48% FG

SG: Joe Johnson - 18 ppg . . 5 asst . . 45% FG . . 40% 3FG

SF: Jeff Taylor ( 1st round pick ) - 9 ppg . . 5 rebs . . 42% FG . . 37% 3FG

PF: Al Horford - 17 ppg . . 9 rebs . . 3 asst . . 52% FG

C: Pau Gasol - 16 ppg . . 8 rebs . . 3 asst . . 51% FG

What I envision, is a team that now has multiple people who could hurt you in the halfcourt offense. The reliance on ISO Joe at the end of games may not be necessary, if you have both Al Horford and Pau Gasol who can make a 16 foot jumper off of a pick and roll/pop situation . . and . . post a weaker post player up.

Or you could simply run a pick for Teague for him to get to the rim. And even if we do go ISO Joe, you now have a frontline player who is going to be closer to the rim looking to grab the offensive rebound, than to receive a pass out by the 3 point line.

Jeff Teague is the guy who will benefit the most from the departure of Josh Smith. He would get a little more control of the team.

Edited June 1, 2012 by northcyde

[Guest]

(( clapping @ Diesel ))

The argument for trading Josh Smith for Pau Gasol was laid out perfectly by him and by a few others. The issue isn't whether most fans want Josh back. The issue is if Josh himself even wants to come back? And if the answer to that is NO, the Hawks must try to get the best available piece we can for him. We can't afford to lose him for nothing.

There's no way the Hawks can afford to do nothing, and let Josh hold all of the cards come 2013. This is exactly what happened in the Joe Johnson situation. JJ wasn't about to sign a 4 year - 60 mill extension, because he knew he could get at least 50% more money. JJ played his cards perfectly, and eventually the Hawks signed him to an insane contract, for fear of losing him and not being able to replace his production on both ends of the floor.

Now we see Smith about to be in that same situation. But unlike JJ, an extra 20 million may not be enticing enough for Josh to stay in ATL. He may value fame and stardom on a higher profile team, than coming back to ATL for a max contract. This is not saying that he'll take extremely less money somewhere else. But I can see a scenario in which Josh takes a 4 year max contract with another team, than take a 5 year max contract to stay in ATL.

@ nbasuperstar

Do you know who the departure of Josh Smith might help the most?

JEFF TEAGUE

Because it is Teague whose full potential is being held by not only by the coach, but also by some of the things that Josh Smith does. And that major thing . . is Josh bringing the ball up the court after grabbing a defensive rebound, despite Teague being right beside that dude. We can see Teague sometimes sighing or having a look of disgust, when Josh just blows that dude off and brings the ball up himself.

Instead of filling the lane and receiving the pass back and dunking ( ala Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, or Blake Griffin ), Josh wants to make the play all by himself. Sometimes he can. Other times, it turns into bad turnovers. I wonder what percent of Josh's turnovers come on these "Josh-breaks" in which he ends up turning the ball over.

Josh is undeniably a very good talent. At times, he's the best player on the court. Problem is, sometimes he's the worst player on the court. The freelance nature of his game is what keeps this team "out of balance". Instead of playing like we need him to play, he plays like HE wants to play. And that's a recipe for disaster at times.

It's almost like when Allen Iverson went to Denver. The AI - Melo combo was a potent duo to throw at people offensively. Eventually though, it got to the point in which who was going to take the "big shot" . . Iverson or Melo? And with Iverson, the team was defensively out of balance.

Eventually, Denver had to make a decision whether to trade for Chauncey Billups ( when Detroit decided that they needed a "change" ). Despite Iverson playing great ball in Denver, that team was still "out of balance". Chauncey was the more stable PG they needed, who brought balance to the team.

Josh isn't to blame for the Hawks as a whole for not being great. That falls on management. But like with all of the dribbling and indecisiveness that JJ does at times, the "wildness" in Josh's game prevents us from reaching our potential.

Even if we trade Josh for Gasol, and Gasol comes here and averages 15 ppg and 8 rebounds, the Hawks could still be better. They could be better if Gasol continues to shoot 50%+ from the field and adequately defend his position ( which he can do, despite popular belief ). The "new Hawks" could look like this

PG: Jeff Teague - 15 ppg . . 6 asst . . 48% FG

SG: Joe Johnson - 18 ppg . . 5 asst . . 45% FG . . 40% 3FG

SF: Jeff Taylor ( 1st round pick ) - 9 ppg . . 5 rebs . . 42% FG . . 37% 3FG

PF: Al Horford - 17 ppg . . 9 rebs . . 3 asst . . 52% FG

C: Pau Gasol - 16 ppg . . 8 rebs . . 3 asst . . 51% FG

What I envision, is a team that now has multiple people who could hurt you in the halfcourt offense. The reliance on ISO Joe at the end of games may not be necessary, if you have both Al Horford and Pau Gasol who can make a 16 foot jumper off of a pick and roll/pop situation . . and . . post a weaker post player up.

Or you could simply run a pick for Teague for him to get to the rim. And even if we do go ISO Joe, you now have a frontline player who is going to be closer to the rim looking to grab the offensive rebound, than to receive a pass out by the 3 point line.

Jeff Teague is the guy who will benefit the most from the departure of Josh Smith. He would get a little more control of the team.

Well said....I don't usually read long posts in their entirety, I did this one.

[Diesel]

One other thing Northcyde.People tend to look at Josh and talk about how he is allstar. However, that's this year. The year that Horf was out and Josh had to man the frontcourt scoring. Well, Horf is back. I think you need to look at Josh's last three years and make some determinations about how good he is. If Gasol is on the table, ASG ought to pull the trigger now. We might get into the season and Josh may not look as good as he did this past season.However, even if this season is not an aberration, the contract is the driving force.