For those of you who want scoring vs rebounding in the draft.

[Buzzard]

The Spurs vs OKC series is a classic example of rebounding winning championships.Game 1 Sprus + 7 reboundsGame 2 Spurs + 1 reboundGame 3 OKC + 3 reboundsGame 4 OKC + 10 reboundsThe Spurs looked like locks after winning the 1st two games but OKC and their two headed Monster, Ibaka and Perkins, have flipped this series 110%.Both these teams are in the top ten in rebounding differential. OKC is 5th at +2.41 and the Spurs are 8th at +1.77. We have to get bigger. Our team has two very good and fundamentaly sound players in JJ and Horford. A potentialy sound defensive PG in Teague. But until we get better at rebounding, there is no way we will ever threaten a elite team.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Buzzard

[ag82]

The team that scored more also won each of those games.

[Jody23]

The Spurs vs OKC series is a classic example of rebounding winning championships.Game 1 Sprus + 7 reboundsGame 2 Spurs + 1 reboundGame 3 OKC + 3 reboundsGame 4 OKC + 10 reboundsThe Spurs looked like locks after winning the 1st two games but OKC and their two headed Monster, Ibaka and Perkins, have flipped this series 110%.Both these teams are in the top ten in rebounding differential. OKC is 5th at +2.41 and the Spurs are 8th at +1.77. We have to get bigger. Our team has two very good and fundamentaly sound players in JJ and Horford. A potentialy sound defensive PG in Teague. But until we get better at rebounding, there is no way we will ever threaten a elite team.

I don't want to discount the team's need for better scoring, but I think that will improve when we give more scoring opportunities to guys who are more efficient offensively and less to guys who like to jack jumpers. I couldn't agree more with your point about rebounding. The Hawks have been too small and weak on the boards ever since they've been forcing Horford at center and Josh at the 4 (years).

[Buzzard]

The team that scored more also won each of those games.

That is like Doug Collins classic quote "anytime the Pistons score more than 100pts and they hold the other team to less than 100 they win most of the time" lmao.

He was of course talking about the great rebounding and defensive teams the Pistons had when they were manned by Ben Wallace at center.

[Buzzard]

I don't want to discount the team's need for better scoring, but I think that will improve when we give more scoring opportunities to guys who are more efficient offensively and less to guys who like to jack jumpers. I couldn't agree more with your point about rebounding. The Hawks have been too small and weak on the boards ever since they've been forcing Horford at center and Josh at the 4 (years).

I agree with this 100%. If we get similar or more ( due to better rebounding ) possesions and are more efficient at scoring we will score more. Better rebounding and better FG% are both keys to being a elite team.Jacking up low % jumpers and being one of the worse rebounding teams in the league will never make any team elite. We are doing great just making the playoffs with the way we play.

[KB21]

I would add that I don't think the issue is the reliance upon jump shooting as much as it is WHO is doing the jump shooting. When Joe Johnson, Willie Green, Janerro Pargo, and even Marvin Williams are the ones doing the jump shooting, the Hawks are actually very efficient with their scoring. They are very inefficient when it is Josh Smith doing the jump shooting. Even Al Horford has close to a 50% eFG% on jump shots compared to Josh's in general 33-37% eFG%. What's interesting about the Hawks rebounding is that they were actually 8th in the NBA in defensive rebounding percentage. They rebounded around 74% of the available defensive rebounds to them over the course of the season, and this was without Al Horford. The Spurs were first in the NBA at 76% to give you a frame of reference. The Hawks issues with rebounding appear to be keeping the other team off the defensive rebounds. The Hawks were 26th in the NBA in offensive rebounding percentage, getting around 23% of the available offensive rebounds. That means that team's in general had approximately a 77% defensive rebounding percentage against the Hawks. When you are a heavy jump shooting team, you have to be able to pick up some easy points on put backs after the offensive rebound. For a frame of reference, the Bulls were first in ORB%, getting around 33% of the offensive rebounds available to them.When looking at their efficiency stats, the evidence actually bears out the fact that the Hawks have a very good basketball team. IMO, what they need overall is better depth. The Hawks need to be able to play someone better than Jason Collins and Erick Dampier at center when their starter goes out of the game. They need someone who can play multiple perimeter positions that can actually play long minutes on back to back nights, unlike Tracy McGrady. Both Willie Green and Janerro Pargo had career years as shooters, but overall, their role was too much for what they brought to the table. Both were liabilities on the defensive end. Plus, the Hawks do not have a capable back up point guard on the entire team. Oddly enough, this team is starting to look a lot like the Lenny Wilkens teams of the '90s. Those were very good teams, but what killed them was the lack of depth.

[KB21]

To add, the best offensive rebounder that may be available to the Hawks is Arnette Moultrie from Mississippi State. At one point this season, he was averaging around 13.5 rebounds per 40 minutes, 5.2 of those being offensive rebounds. According to some of the things I've heard coming out of Starkville though (MSU is my alma mater), some background checks will need to be done here. I've heard some things that a lot of the problems within the locker room came from more than just Renardo Sidney, and I've heard Arnette's name mentioned but nothing has been concrete about it.

[EazyRoc]

The team that scored more also won each of those games.

Good one.

[Diesel]

The Spurs vs OKC series is a classic example of rebounding winning championships.Game 1 Sprus + 7 reboundsGame 2 Spurs + 1 reboundGame 3 OKC + 3 reboundsGame 4 OKC + 10 reboundsThe Spurs looked like locks after winning the 1st two games but OKC and their two headed Monster, Ibaka and Perkins, have flipped this series 110%.Both these teams are in the top ten in rebounding differential. OKC is 5th at +2.41 and the Spurs are 8th at +1.77. We have to get bigger. Our team has two very good and fundamentaly sound players in JJ and Horford. A potentialy sound defensive PG in Teague. But until we get better at rebounding, there is no way we will ever threaten a elite team.

I wouldn't say just rebounding. I think OKC was able to get Ibaka to score inside... So they had inside scoring. Ibaka was about 11/11 last night and had 27 points. On the inside that's unusual for them. I know all the press went to Durant, but he was made better because there was inside scoring. Hence, OKC was not just a jumpshooting team.

[Buzzard]

I would add that I don't think the issue is the reliance upon jump shooting as much as it is WHO is doing the jump shooting. When Joe Johnson, Willie Green, Janerro Pargo, and even Marvin Williams are the ones doing the jump shooting, the Hawks are actually very efficient with their scoring. They are very inefficient when it is Josh Smith doing the jump shooting. Even Al Horford has close to a 50% eFG% on jump shots compared to Josh's in general 33-37% eFG%.What's interesting about the Hawks rebounding is that they were actually 8th in the NBA in defensive rebounding percentage. They rebounded around 74% of the available defensive rebounds to them over the course of the season, and this was without Al Horford. The Spurs were first in the NBA at 76% to give you a frame of reference. The Hawks issues with rebounding appear to be keeping the other team off the defensive rebounds. The Hawks were 26th in the NBA in offensive rebounding percentage, getting around 23% of the available offensive rebounds. That means that team's in general had approximately a 77% defensive rebounding percentage against the Hawks. When you are a heavy jump shooting team, you have to be able to pick up some easy points on put backs after the offensive rebound. For a frame of reference, the Bulls were first in ORB%, getting around 33% of the offensive rebounds available to them.When looking at their efficiency stats, the evidence actually bears out the fact that the Hawks have a very good basketball team. IMO, what they need overall is better depth.

Unless they change the rules to allow 6 men to play or we bench Josh for at least 10 more mpg, our ORB will not improve. Josh ranks 50th in ORBPG at 2.1 a game and to give you an idea of just how bad this is:James Singleton 49th 2.1 per game in 21.9 mpgSpencer Hawes 48th 2.1 per game in 24.9 mpgTaj Gigson 47th 2.1 per game in 20.4 mpgOf all the players outside the top 25 Josh was the leader in minutes played per game. You are right about Josh killing us with his jump shooting, he does. While most teams PFs are 15ft or closer when their shot goes up, Josh is standing 20ft or further out with almost zero chance at a offensive rebound. What you are wrong about is it is because of our bench. ZaZa is ranked 28th. ZaZa is a good but not great offensive rebounder but he is great when comparing him to Smoove. Big Al is ranked 39th.There is room for improvement from Al and Smoove. 1st Smoove needs to stop chucking and living the SG dream while getting closer to the paint, like most PFs. 2nd Al needs to move to PF, so he is matched up with players closer to his size. Our team is not built right and Josh Smiths mind has never been right.

[Buzzard]

I wouldn't say just rebounding. I think OKC was able to get Ibaka to score inside... So they had inside scoring. Ibaka was about 11/11 last night and had 27 points. On the inside that's unusual for them. I know all the press went to Durant, but he was made better because there was inside scoring. Hence, OKC was not just a jumpshooting team.

Rebounding% difference and FG% difference ( this is a defensive based stat ) is what both the Spurs and OKC excel at.

[Joker]

1. Undersized in the paint2. Josh Smith on offense with Al Horford. Horford is smart enough to know his role, Josh isn't on offense.3. No #1 option makes defense that much more critical.4. No one gets easy shots. That's on the PG. Teams like OKC and Miami also do get a ton of easy baskets as well but they have superstars like Durant, Westbrook, James, and Wade.

[Joker]

Counting on Ibaka who has no range and no real post up game to score 26 a night is like asking the same from Marvin who can't create his own shot and doesn't demand for the ball. Those guys are role players. I truly think Durant and Westbrook make it possible to play Ibaka, Perkins, and Tebo at once.

[Joker]

If Josh Smith wasn't given us so much on defense, he would be bench in a heart beat. His defensive presence and IQ makes our defense a lot better. Not just better. Josh is really one of the most underrated defenders in the NBA. He is a complete defender? No but he is special at what he is great at and only one I can see truly better is Dwight Howard.

[Joker]

I would add that I don't think the issue is the reliance upon jump shooting as much as it is WHO is doing the jump shooting. When Joe Johnson, Willie Green, Janerro Pargo, and even Marvin Williams are the ones doing the jump shooting, the Hawks are actually very efficient with their scoring. They are very inefficient when it is Josh Smith doing the jump shooting. Even Al Horford has close to a 50% eFG% on jump shots compared to Josh's in general 33-37% eFG%.What's interesting about the Hawks rebounding is that they were actually 8th in the NBA in defensive rebounding percentage. They rebounded around 74% of the available defensive rebounds to them over the course of the season, and this was without Al Horford. The Spurs were first in the NBA at 76% to give you a frame of reference. The Hawks issues with rebounding appear to be keeping the other team off the defensive rebounds. The Hawks were 26th in the NBA in offensive rebounding percentage, getting around 23% of the available offensive rebounds. That means that team's in general had approximately a 77% defensive rebounding percentage against the Hawks. When you are a heavy jump shooting team, you have to be able to pick up some easy points on put backs after the offensive rebound. For a frame of reference, the Bulls were first in ORB%, getting around 33% of the offensive rebounds available to them.When looking at their efficiency stats, the evidence actually bears out the fact that the Hawks have a very good basketball team. IMO, what they need overall is better depth. The Hawks need to be able to play someone better than Jason Collins and Erick Dampier at center when their starter goes out of the game. They need someone who can play multiple perimeter positions that can actually play long minutes on back to back nights, unlike Tracy McGrady. Both Willie Green and Janerro Pargo had career years as shooters, but overall, their role was too much for what they brought to the table. Both were liabilities on the defensive end. Plus, the Hawks do not have a capable back up point guard on the entire team.Oddly enough, this team is starting to look a lot like the Lenny Wilkens teams of the '90s. Those were very good teams, but what killed them was the lack of depth.

Overall scoring as well. Those teams were killed by their lack of a #1 option or #2 since Smitty was really a #3 option as well as their overall depth. To be honest, this team is superior talent wise but that team was better and was balanced. This team can be much better with a PnR PG and a rebounding defensive minded center. I wish we had a young Ben Wallace and a John Stockton type. We would be elite without question.If we miss out of Deron and Dwight. I would love to draft Scott Machado and trade for Noah. That would be such a great personnel grouping especially once Machado adjusts to the NBA. Edited June 3, 2012 by Joker

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

The team that scored more also won each of those games.

I like what you did there sir.

[KB21]

Unless they change the rules to allow 6 men to play or we bench Josh for at least 10 more mpg, our ORB will not improve. Josh ranks 50th in ORBPG at 2.1 a game and to give you an idea of just how bad this is:James Singleton 49th 2.1 per game in 21.9 mpgSpencer Hawes 48th 2.1 per game in 24.9 mpgTaj Gigson 47th 2.1 per game in 20.4 mpgOf all the players outside the top 25 Josh was the leader in minutes played per game. You are right about Josh killing us with his jump shooting, he does. While most teams PFs are 15ft or closer when their shot goes up, Josh is standing 20ft or further out with almost zero chance at a offensive rebound. What you are wrong about is it is because of our bench. ZaZa is ranked 28th. ZaZa is a good but not great offensive rebounder but he is great when comparing him to Smoove. Big Al is ranked 39th.There is room for improvement from Al and Smoove. 1st Smoove needs to stop chucking and living the SG dream while getting closer to the paint, like most PFs. 2nd Al needs to move to PF, so he is matched up with players closer to his size. Our team is not built right and Josh Smiths mind has never been right.

Relative to Zaza, he was essentially a starter this year with Al out, so that is the frame of reference I was looking at with him. Unlike some Hawks fans, if Zaza were the back up center behind a legitimate starting center with size, he'd be among the best back up centers in the game. The problem lies in the fact that to rest Zaza this year, Jason Collins and Erick Dampier were the guys initially being used until they finally realized that Ivan Johnson offered more than both. Then they forgot that in the playoffs.

Overall scoring as well. Those teams were killed by their lack of a #1 option or #2 since Smitty was really a #3 option as well as their overall depth. To be honest, this team is superior talent wise but that team was better and was balanced. This team can be much better with a PnR PG and a rebounding defensive minded center. I wish we had a young Ben Wallace and a John Stockton type. We would be elite without question.If we miss out of Deron and Dwight. I would love to draft Scott Machado and trade for Noah. That would be such a great personnel grouping especially once Machado adjusts to the NBA.

[Diesel]

Counting on Ibaka who has no range and no real post up game to score 26 a night is like asking the same from Marvin who can't create his own shot and doesn't demand for the ball.

I don't disagree with that, however when you do get 26 from your post player, it opens the door for the other players to be more effective. In the 4th qtr, Brooks told Durant, You have the greenlight. Durant was more open on most of those shots than he had been all season. That's called the inside out game. Us.. we have no inside out game. We just have a team full of Jumpshooters hoping that we're having a good shooting day.

[AHF]

The team that scored more also won each of those games.

That isn't so unrelated as you might see on first glance. OKC shot 42% in each of the first two games. They shot a collective 50+% in the next two. Each miss creates a rebounding opportunity more likely to be won by the opposing team. When you shoot a low% of shots, you are more likely to be outrebounded and to give up easier baskets in transition. If you score and make the other team bring the ball to an organized defense, it helps both your defense and your rebounding differential.

[Joker]

I don't disagree with that, however when you do get 26 from your post player, it opens the door for the other players to be more effective. In the 4th qtr, Brooks told Durant, You have the greenlight. Durant was more open on most of those shots than he had been all season. That's called the inside out game. Us.. we have no inside out game. We just have a team full of Jumpshooters hoping that we're having a good shooting day.

We have no one to create offense either. These guys really are spot up shooters, Josh who is basically an talented inconsistent offensive player or a movement player in Horford. Our inside game is inconsistent but I wouldn't say it's nonexistent. Don't try to say that BS just to press Gasol again when it simply isn't true by stats or anything credible. I am starting to hate Gasol due to you guy, I don't even think the guy is a bad player, I think he is just as valuable as Smith in general but as a Hawk, he wouldn't be anything special, in fact he would be a bigger disappointment than anything else.