Houston will pursue Josh Smith if they fail to get Dwight Howard

[Sothron]

There's no need for the personal remarks...Josh is an interesting trade problem. He's worth more than he is paid but he's an expiring. A team trading for him either views him as a one year rental or a long term fix and will have to convince him to resign. Which brings up the next problem for any team with Josh past this season: how much exactly do you pay him?

[Admin]

The fact that he's expiring makes his contract more valuable. You are showing a total lack of knowledge.

No, IT DOES NOT!!!!! My God why is this concept SO FLIPPING DIFFICULT for you to understand???? The only time an expiring contract is valuable is when it's a player you acquire while giving away a long term contract and you're going to let that new player go after his contract expires, or re-sign him for a lot less money, thereby saving the team cap room.

He isn't one who's likely to leave after a year to go to a bigger city. An expiring deal is part of the reason why he is so attractive and the fact that he's an impact player as well. You are starting to become annoying. Josh Smith is extremely valuable, if you can't see that Ray Charles, then we just completely disagree. You are so off right now and then want to call me out. Please.

He's a FA after this year so he's likely to go to ANY TEAM WITH THE CAP ROOM TO SIGN HIM!!!!

Josh Smith is extremely valuable, if you can't see that Ray Charles, then we just completely disagree. You are so off right now and then want to call me out. Please.

Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. Start a poll on here and ask if Josh Smith is more valuable or less valuable to a team trading for him with him being on an expiring deal. Go ahead, prove that you're sooo right. I'm prepared to come in hat in hand and admit that I'm wrong if the poll results back you up, but you damn well better be ready to do the same.

[Admin]

I might not know the CBA well but I know trade values and values of player as well as personnel groupings. You can go sit down with that Dolfan.

I can't believe you are trying to say a top 25-35 player with elite skills on an expiring contract is a bad value. Then you start talking about him like he's Dwight or Deron. Like teams clear cap to add Josh Smith to their squad. Man, the stuff you guys say sometimes is amazing.

Go back and read what I said. I NEVER said he's BAD VALUE, I said HE IS WORTH LESS THAN HIS TALENT LEVEL BECAUSE HE'S ON AN EXPIRING DEAL.

[Admin]

There's no need for the personal remarks...Josh is an interesting trade problem. He's worth more than he is paid but he's an expiring. A team trading for him either views him as a one year rental or a long term fix and will have to convince him to resign. Which brings up the next problem for any team with Josh past this season: how much exactly do you pay him?

He's going to get a raise and that trade kicker creates a real problem because he's probably going to want at least the amount after trade kicker as his new starting salary. That's part of the reason why it's a good idea to trade him is because we really cannot afford his big contract along with Joe's big contract. Unfortunately this is a situation where keeping Joe is going to cost us Josh, so hopefully we get close to replacement value for him.

[CJB]

Joker you are EXTREMELY overvaluing Josh Smith. Like ridiculously overvaluing him.

[Joker]

No, IT DOES NOT!!!!! My God why is this concept SO FLIPPING DIFFICULT for you to understand???? The only time an expiring contract is valuable is when it's a player you acquire while giving away a long term contract and you're going to let that new player go after his contract expires, or re-sign him for a lot less money, thereby saving the team cap room.He's a FA after this year so he's likely to go to ANY TEAM WITH THE CAP ROOM TO SIGN HIM!!!!Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. Start a poll on here and ask if Josh Smith is more valuable or less valuable to a team trading for him with him being on an expiring deal. Go ahead, prove that you're sooo right. I'm prepared to come in hat in hand and admit that I'm wrong if the poll results back you up, but you damn well better be ready to do the same.

You already know I stand for everything I say so saying put your money where your mouth is an easy go for me. Why would I start a poll? No one on HS really matters at the end of the day. This is a message board of fans who just like and dislike certain players and follow the community trends. Nothing that's polled on here matters unless it's about the food or fan support or something that needs analytical data. I think you are completely on this Pau Gasol spaz right now so I will ignore that you think Smith has lower value when he's an expiring contract, top 25-35 player, improving, just had one of the most versatile seasons in the last 10 years for a NBA player, carried us for most of the season, is only 26 years old, and is an elite defender and yes he has his flaws but his impact is very good and at times great depending on his offense.

[Admin]

You already know I stand for everything I say so saying put your money where your mouth is an easy go for me. Why would I start a poll? No one on HS really matters at the end of the day. This is a message board of fans who just like and dislike certain players and follow the community trends. Nothing that's polled on here matters unless it's about the food or fan support or something that needs analytical data.

Hey if you're afraid of the results then by all means, bow out now and admit that you're wrong.

I think you are completely on this Pau Gasol spaz right now

I don't even want us to trade for Pau so again you're talking about something you have no idea about. :stinker:

so I will ignore that you think Smith has lower value when he's an expiring contract, top 25-35 player, improving, just had one of the most versatile seasons in the last 10 years for a NBA player, carried us for most of the season, is only 26 years old, and is an elite defender and yes he has his flaws but his impact is very good and at times great depending on his offense.

I am 100% certain you're going to ignore something that is common knowledge for any non-casual NBA fan. I mean damn if you can't believe me, then go read about ANY Dwight Howard rumor and tell me that you think the Magic are getting fair value for him as he's in exactly the same boat as Josh. Go ahead, I'll wait...

[HawkItus]

Would Memphis give us Rudy Gay and Pargo for Josh and 23? They can get a small forward through the draft.

[Joker]

Go back and read what I said. I NEVER said he's BAD VALUE, I said HE IS WORTH LESS THAN HIS TALENT LEVEL BECAUSE HE'S ON AN EXPIRING DEAL.

Trading him for trash is bad business and a bad value. You don't take five steps back to stay back which is what you are saying, correct? He is on an expiring deal means he has more value. Means the team who trades for him has more flexibility. They can clear cap if he goes but they can build around him if he's proven to be a key asset. What part of that do you not understand?

He's going to get a raise and that trade kicker creates a real problem because he's probably going to want at least the amount after trade kicker as his new starting salary. That's part of the reason why it's a good idea to trade him is because we really cannot afford his big contract along with Joe's big contract. Unfortunately this is a situation where keeping Joe is going to cost us Josh, so hopefully we get close to replacement value for him.

A trade kicker? A trade kicker?A. He doesn't have to use it unless he wants to. That's Smith's call if he wants to use it or not when traded.B. He is a top 25-35 player who just had an amazing season impact wise. Why would a team really give a damn. It's not like his Gasol.

Joker you are EXTREMELY overvaluing Josh Smith. Like ridiculously overvaluing him.

Extremely undervaluing him is what you guys have done since this Gasol BS. It's sad I look like that guy since now you guys want to traded Smith for pennies due to a soft ass 7 foot PF who can't play with any heart in the playoffs. I am convince the loon theatrics is because of Pau Gasol. Thank god Ferry is smart. If he was a HS poster, I would have had more faith in BK and Babcock then you guys.

[Joker]

Hey if you're afraid of the results then by all means, bow out now and admit that you're wrong.

I don't even want us to trade for Pau so again you're talking about something you have no idea about.

I am 100% certain you're going to ignore something that is common knowledge for any non-casual NBA fan. I mean damn if you can't believe me, then go read about ANY Dwight Howard rumor and tell me that you think the Magic are getting fair value for him as he's in exactly the same boat as Josh. Go ahead, I'll wait...

I am 100% certain you're going to ignore something that is common knowledge for any non-casual NBA fan.

Why do you keep saying this? I don't even know what this is even about? The Magic will keep Dwight Howard and if they were going to trade him, it was for Bynum who is a legit NBA All Star and a true center. They would receive good value for him but not equal value in comparison to Dwight. We need great or good value. I don't have an issue if we get that.

[AHF]

I don't think a team will work out a S&T for Josh and someone earlier said the new CBA actually eliminated the S&T option for UFA.

S&Ts are still allowed but the old driver for those deals was that the player could get an extra year and higher raises if he did a S&T versus a straight FA signing. That gave the player leverage to force his new team to do a S&T and give up value to his old team so he could get higher raises. That is what Lebron and Bosh did and their greed (I don't mean that in a bad way here) gave CLE and TOR the leverage to get a S&T and some value.The new CBA only allows the player to get the better pay terms if they stay with their old team so a S&T deal offers nothing to player who wants to leave his current team and sign somewhere else. Under this CBA, TOR and CLE would have been left with nothing when Bosh and Lebron conspired to leave Miami. TOR was told by Bosh that he was going to leave and so would have dealt him in-season under the new CBA. CLE was lied to and strung along by Lebron and wouldn't have given up hope on resigning Lebron so they would have been left with nothing. This forces teams to move players earlier or take a bit less at the deadline rather than having the escape hatch of a realistic S&T possibility with teams under the cap.Where S&T deals are still very relevant today is for teams that don't have the cap room to sign someone. So if Josh is dead set on getting paid $14M/per and playing for the Lakers, the only way he can get there is by S&T and Atlanta can get some value. If Josh is going to sign with a team under the cap, he will just walk.

[MaceCase]

AHF, I'll have to reread the details but starting 2013! 2013! SnT rules will take effect that would eliminate teams like the Lakers from participating in a sign and trade due to any combination of being over the cap, paying lux tax and having utilized a MLE and whatnot. Stay tuned.

[MrMeltdown]

Josh is definitely worth 14,16,18 and some if you look at recent precedent. Chase Budinger got Houston #18 straight up. Josh is like 5 x's more impactful than Budinger. Houston is not really a good trade partner because 14,16, and 18 would be a weak return for Josh. We need a lottery pick and a rotation player for Josh.

[AHF]

AHF, I'll have to reread the details but starting 2013! 2013! SnT rules will take effect that would eliminate teams like the Lakers from participating in a sign and trade due to any combination of being over the cap, paying lux tax and having utilized a MLE and whatnot. Stay tuned.

Agreed. I am just saying that the S&T is not a dead tool. The repeat tax offenders have some severe limitations. They don't apply to trades today, however.

[coachx]

Josh is definitely worth 14,16,18 and some if you look at recent precedent. Chase Budinger got Houston #18 straight up. Josh is like 5 x's more impactful than Budinger. Houston is not really a good trade partner because 14,16, and 18 would be a weak return for Josh. We need a lottery pick and a rotation player for Josh.

I will continune to repeat this to everyone who ignores what makes up 50% of a trade.On the floor impact is 50% of the equation...........contracts are the other 50% and Josh Smith's contract is $13 million for 1 more year which means whoever trades for Josh Smith could only be getting a 1 year rental rather then a player locked up on a long contract. That risk greatly reduces the trade value for a player in Josh Smith's situation.Chase Budinger is a bargain contract at $854 K with a team option for next season. That contract makes him even more attractive to other clubs in trades since it is a bargain. The T'Wolves probably believe they are getting a better player then they could get with the 18th pick plus they are saving a few million dollars.

[MrMeltdown]

I will continune to repeat this to everyone who ignores what makes up 50% of a trade.On the floor impact is 50% of the equation...........contracts are the other 50% and Josh Smith's contract is $13 million for 1 more year which means whoever trades for Josh Smith could only be getting a 1 year rental rather then a player locked up on a long contract. That risk greatly reduces the trade value for a player in Josh Smith's situation.Chase Budinger is a bargain contract at $854 K with a team option for next season. That contract makes him even more attractive to other clubs in trades since it is a bargain. The T'Wolves probably believe they are getting a better player then they could get with the 18th pick plus they are saving a few million dollars.

Contrarily, every team has there own agenda with trades. Cleveland took Baron Davis from LA because they wanted that unprotected lottery pick no matter the cost. Nets took Gerald Wallace and his expiring from Portland and sent out a top 3 or 4 protected pick because they wanted to get better players in order to try and keep Deron and lure Dwight. So, the point is every team is looking for something you just have to find the right deal and I repeat that the right deal in this case for the Hawks is nothing less than 14,16,18, and a rotation player. Getting that for Josh would be less than what teams have given up for lessor players.

[coachx]

Contrarily, every team has there own agenda with trades. Cleveland took Baron Davis from LA because they wanted that unprotected lottery pick no matter the cost. Nets took Gerald Wallace and his expiring from Portland and sent out a top 3 or 4 protected pick because they wanted to get better players in order to try and keep Deron and lure Dwight. So, the point is every team is looking for something you just have to find the right deal and I repeat that the right deal in this case for the Hawks is nothing less than 14,16,18, and a rotation player. Getting that for Josh would be less than what teams have given up for lessor players.

NJ was quites stupid to do the Wallace deal.However, that is a good comparison you bring up. I too hope we can as lucky as the Trailblazers were in that trade that got them the #6 pick for Gerald Wallace and his expiring contract.

[BrazilianHawk]

Josh can help us try to get to the Finals even if it's just for one year. I rather that than Martin and a freakin mid 1st.Martin is a solid player like Jamal. They both are better off the bench.

Hm... So he didn't do it in seven years (it was more like the opposite, shooting us out of playoff games) but you still believe Smith will take this team to the Finals... I wonder where were you 40 days ago.

[AHF]

Hm... So he didn't do it in seven years (it was more like the opposite, shooting us out of playoff games) but you still believe Smith will take this team to the Finals... I wonder where were you 40 days ago.

While I agree Josh isn't taking this team to the finals, it isn't the opposite. Josh's bad jump shooting hurt us but he has helped us tremendously in other areas. He has been one of the major factors helping our play in the regular season and playoffs on the net. The numbers support this unequivocably. For example, Josh's numbers are superior to Joe Johnson in every comprehensive metric of which I am aware (i.e., PER, WS, WS/48, etc.) this post-season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

While I agree Josh isn't taking this team to the finals, it isn't the opposite. Josh's bad jump shooting hurt us but he has helped us tremendously in other areas. He has been one of the major factors helping our play in the regular season and playoffs on the net. The numbers support this unequivocably. For example, Josh's numbers are superior to Joe Johnson in every comprehensive metric of which I am aware (i.e., PER, WS, WS/48, etc.) this post-season.

If you're talking the playoffs though, that's not saying much. . . seeing that both guys pretty much sucked.

PER

Horford - 17.5 ( leader )

Smith - 15.8

Johnson - 11.7

WS

Teague - 0.7 ( leader )

Smith - 0.2

Johnson - 0.2

WS/48

Teague - 0.139 ( leader )

Smith - 0.059

Johnson - 0.042

Total Shot %

Horford - .613 ( leader )

Johnson - .458

Smith - .432