I Don't Want To Trade Joe

[thecampster]

The deal is:

Anthony Morrow

,

Jordan Farmar

,

Johan Petro

and

Jordan Williams

plus a first round pick in 2013.

Depending on the Deron situation that 1st round pick could be a top 10 pick.

Can't trade your own 1st round pick in back to back years.

[tonegully]

Im going to miss joe

[Admin]

Can't trade your own 1st round pick in back to back years.

Yes you can as long as the prior draft has passed. They can't trade 2013 and 2014 1st round picks right now but they can trade their 2013 since the 2012 draft is already passed.

[DarnShadyRefs]

I know that his contract is a killer and it has (most likely) crippled the team's chances of making future moves, but that being said...I like Joe a lot and I think he is our best player, and I don't want to trade him for nothing. Farmar, Morrow, Petro and somebody else? We just drafted Morrow's clone, and Farmar and Petro are so bad I don't even want them on the court. I understand that Joe's contract is bad, so we shouldn't expect the best player in the league back, but you don't trade him just to dump salary. That is an insult to Joe.I am a huge Hawks fan, because I like the majority of our players. I haven't been a fan for as long as you have, since I hopped on the Hawks when Zaza came over, but I have been here through the bullshit-filled last 7 years, and I have grown attached to certain players.I don't know if I could survive rooting for a team this season where Smoove gets to take 28 shots a game, and he is our closer/last-second shooter.If we're going to trade Joe, he needs to net us a legitimate center or a 18 ppg scoring SG or SF.PS- Go Zaza

Would it feel better if I said We are trading Joe's contract and not Joe?Either way I put it, I don't like it from a loss of skill perspective but its a move needed to be made. The value fro us keeping him is rapidly declining and will put us in a worse position a year or two from now. The experiment is over, the dance is coming to an end,, the ice cream is melting and don't taste good no more. We need to try something new and it starts with getting rid of Joe

[ag82]

This is going to be a tough one for me when it goes through, which it seems like its going to.Personally, I wanted to see Josh gone in hopes of a legit Center to play alongside Al and Joe. Oh well. I also hate the idea of trading away a player with Joe's ability to help another Eastern Conference team build a super team while we spend the next few years hoping to get lucky in the draft and free agency. With Miami, Chicago, and soon Brooklyn (and maybe even the Knicks at some point), we are going to have no shot at the ECF anytime soon. I understand the reasoning and Joe's contract and as somebody mentioned in another thread, "thinking as a gm instead of a fan", but hell, I'm a fan first. And the fan part of me definitely doesn't like this. I have my own business to think about running and I'd like to just be able to enjoy watching my favorite team play basketball. Now I'm just ranting.

[Wretch]

Ag... I'm going to tell you the truth.. not the fantasy going on here.The truth is that we dump Joe and the only thing that is helped is the ASG's wallet. Smoove, Horf, and spare parts will not get us into the playoffs. All of our players are too easy to stop. None of them has ever seen a double team. So that's why we're insisting upon Marshon... he's young but he can create his own shot. However, eventually, we will give in and do the deal for spare parts because NJ wants to hold on to Marshon as trade bait elsewhere.So what will we have. A team filled with players who can't put wins together because they are easily defended. Josh leaves with the other spare parts at the end of the season. And we see how hard it is to bring in free agents. However, ASG gets to run the team on the cheap and probably find a new owner for the Hawks because he no longer has to worry about Joe's salary or the LT.This is the problem with some of the posters here. Their concentration is not on the floor, but it's in the finance office. The finance office doesn't effect what we can get. IF we wanted some more players, we could amnesty Marvin. Zaza comes off the books next year.. he will be good trade bait for some team.Here's the worst offense.With No Horf.. many injuries.. and a first year PG.. we finished 6 games behind Miami. What does that really mean? Does that mean we suck?? Does that mean that we can't compete for a title given the right tweaks??This move is a Babcock Knee Jerk... but it must be done so that another learning experience can take place.YOU GONNA LEARN TODAY.

I'm usually drinking out of the same pitcher of Kool-Aid as you D, but I'm on the polar opposite side of the fence on this. Let me get this disclaimer out here first - and don't skip over this because it's important. But, the only question really is if we've been fed some horseshit about ownership's commitment to winning. If these guys are lying and Ferry is putting on a show, then I concur with you. I would be in 100% agreement because we all know how finanicially...um...well, I don't even have the words. We just know that in the past, these guys have made some questionably cheap moves and haven't done the things necessary to put a winner on the court.Where we differ in opinion though is where this team is headed...When I look at these teams that are consistently in the running for the final four: Chicago, Miami, Boston...I don't see us walking out with a victory. In the case of Boston, yeah now that they're OLD. But those busted up, old ass Celtics put us out. The refs made it close, but we made it closer because we just couldn't seal the deal. This same team has met the elites in the playoffs and the losses are convincing. Moreover, except for the Orlando series, we've barely escaped the first round. We have a decent team, but we don't have the talent to go blow for blow with the elites. Joe is easily contained and will only get easier to contain as the days go on. Josh is GIVEN shots by the defense. Horford is good from midrange, but he's not the 1st option type and doesn't have an impact low post game. So if horseshit is not on the menu, then what is happening is a reshaping of the roster. That's the right thing to do and the best plan going forward.I'm not afraid of rebuilding now, just like I wasn't afraid of it back in the 90's. Something has to be done to break the cycle and it's not going to happen if we continue to invest in this core. To make a difference, we'd have to swindle a superstar off of someone or take a HUGE gamble right now on essentially Dwight Howard. And that is IF we could pull that trade off.

[AHF]

Yes you can as long as the prior draft has passed. They can't trade 2013 and 2014 1st round picks right now but they can trade their 2013 since the 2012 draft is already passed.

Dolfan is 100% correct on this. The rule against trading picks in consecutive years only applies to future picks and 2012 is not a future pick. You can trade your first for the next ten consecutive years if you always trade next years pick after this year's draft. Edited July 2, 2012 by AHF

[Diesel]

I'm usually drinking out of the same pitcher of Kool-Aid as you D, but I'm on the polar opposite side of the fence on this. Let me get this disclaimer out here first - and don't skip over this because it's important. But, the only question really is if we've been fed some horseshit about ownership's commitment to winning. If these guys are lying and Ferry is putting on a show, then I concur with you. I would be in 100% agreement because we all know how finanicially...um...well, I don't even have the words. We just know that in the past, these guys have made some questionably cheap moves and haven't done the things necessary to put a winner on the court.Where we differ in opinion though is where this team is headed...When I look at these teams that are consistently in the running for the final four: Chicago, Miami, Boston...I don't see us walking out with a victory. In the case of Boston, yeah now that they're OLD. But those busted up, old ass Celtics put us out. The refs made it close, but we made it closer because we just couldn't seal the deal. This same team has met the elites in the playoffs and the losses are convincing. Moreover, except for the Orlando series, we've barely escaped the first round. We have a decent team, but we don't have the talent to go blow for blow with the elites. Joe is easily contained and will only get easier to contain as the days go on. Josh is GIVEN shots by the defense. Horford is good from midrange, but he's not the 1st option type and doesn't have an impact low post game. So if horseshit is not on the menu, then what is happening is a reshaping of the roster. That's the right thing to do and the best plan going forward.I'm not afraid of rebuilding now, just like I wasn't afraid of it back in the 90's. Something has to be done to break the cycle and it's not going to happen if we continue to invest in this core. To make a difference, we'd have to swindle a superstar off of someone or take a HUGE gamble right now on essentially Dwight Howard. And that is IF we could pull that trade off.

Let's be clear here.Our best series in the playoffs thus far has been with Joe and Jamal being on the team and Teague coming in and giving us a guy who could penetrate.We played a stellar series against Chicago.Why were we successful.. because defenses had to worry about more than just Joe. I know Josh has some love on this board and I used to be one, but there's a time when you have to gauge, it's time to fold em. Whether Joe goes or not, it's time for Josh to be traded. His value won't get much higher. Moreover, he's more likely to start declining than Joe is simply based on the way he plays.However, we have found that if you put good players with Joe, this team does very well.I still believe that if it were possible to use Marvin/Josh to get Gasol, that would put us over. It also gives us a more natural timeline to get rid of Joe... 2 yrs. However, with what has been proposed, I don't think we will be able to recover soon. Especially not if we keep Josh.Now.. everybody tends to look at OKC or Chicago for how to build a team.However, why is nobody looking at Dallas or San Antonio?In both cases, you see a team that knows itself and figures out what tweak will make them chapionship quality.In the Spurs case, they did it by drafting add on players in a very wise fashion. Well, one of those persons is now here. It would be a shame to see him start over for starting over sake.

[AHF]

It would be a shame to see him start over for starting over sake.

If he trades Joe to clear his salary, I don't think it will be for the sake of making a move. I think it will be because he sees Joe's contract as an insurmountable obstruction to getting a championship caliber team and that he doesn't think this team is a few moves from being in the company of SA. Both of those are reasonable conclusions, but it would/will still be hard to see us losing one of our few advantages on the floor (against very good teams we are usually at a disadvantage at PG, SF and either PF or C). Edited July 2, 2012 by AHF

[Wretch]

Let's be clear here.

Our best series in the playoffs thus far has been with Joe and Jamal being on the team and Teague coming in and giving us a guy who could penetrate.

We played a stellar series against Chicago.

Why were we successful.. because defenses had to worry about more than just Joe. I know Josh has some love on this board and I used to be one, but there's a time when you have to gauge, it's time to fold em. Whether Joe goes or not, it's time for Josh to be traded. His value won't get much higher. Moreover, he's more likely to start declining than Joe is simply based on the way he plays.

However, we have found that if you put good players with Joe, this team does very well.

I still believe that if it were possible to use Marvin/Josh to get Gasol, that would put us over. It also gives us a more natural timeline to get rid of Joe... 2 yrs. However, with what has been proposed, I don't think we will be able to recover soon. Especially not if we keep Josh.

Now.. everybody tends to look at OKC or Chicago for how to build a team.

However, why is nobody looking at Dallas or San Antonio?

In both cases, you see a team that knows itself and figures out what tweak will make them chapionship quality.

In the Spurs case, they did it by drafting add on players in a very wise fashion. Well, one of those persons is now here. It would be a shame to see him start over for starting over sake.

The Bulls are not a high scoring team. They play great defense, yes...but It says something about OUR offense when our losses in that series were by an average margin of 15+. We lost 4-2 by double digits, shooting a whole buncha jump shots.

The secret to beating the Hawks is taking Joe Johnson out of the game. It's not even a matter of making someone else beating you because there is nobody else on this team capable of beating you. Everybody knows that. Crowd Joe, pack the lane, make him take difficult, contested shots through the double team...or make him pass it to [random Hawks jump-shooting player].

How do you propose to fix that?

Bringing in a streaky jump shooting Crawford? If you CAN bring him in with better teams out there looking for scoring punch off the bench. You gonna bring in Gasol? Soft on the inside, jump shooting on the outside? We gonna bring in a PG to run the pick and roll? Who's rolling? Horford who isn't known for any kind of game going to the basket?

Sorry dude...I just don't see it. I don't see a team that can respond to the elite punches that you're going to take from the best teams in the East. Deron and Dwight team up in Brooklyn? What are we going to do? Miami's going to get the calls, penetrating left and right...and they're going to crowd the lane and make us take jumpers. ...and are we even sure that we can beat the Pacers and 76ers?

It'd also be great to build a team like San Antonio or Dallas...but what exactly do we have that's similar to either of those franchises? Just to get to where they have already been, we'd have to scrap this team and try to build with better talent. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobilli are still Duncan, Parker, and Ginobilli...no matter how old. They can tweak and add pieces to that team because they are a CHAMPIONSHIP CORE. We would be tweaking and adding pieces to a lame duck 2nd round team - and the pieces we add would be the left overs that the contenders didn't want.

This is when you realize that you're backing into a corner. This is when you change things. To be honest, we had our first clue 2 seasons ago. This is the right thing to do. This team and this franchise needs to be reshaped.

[KB21]

Josh is already a better player and makes a bigger impact on winning games than Joe Johnson ever has for the Hawks. The data is there, and it is foolish to argue against it. Josh does more things that create wins than Joe Johnson. Joe is a volume shooter. That is it. He doesn't rebound. He doesn't get his team involved. He doesn't make plays on defense.Josh does all of that, and if he would abandon his love for the 23 foot jumper, he would be an elite player.

[Joker]

Josh is already a better player and makes a bigger impact on winning games than Joe Johnson ever has for the Hawks. The data is there, and it is foolish to argue against it. Josh does more things that create wins than Joe Johnson. Joe is a volume shooter. That is it. He doesn't rebound. He doesn't get his team involved. He doesn't make plays on defense.

Josh does all of that, and if he would abandon his love for the 23 foot jumper, he would be an elite player.

Naw, there is a lot of in-between stuff Josh needs to drop before he can become elite. He needs to become a lot more consistent as well.

[Diesel]

The Bulls are not a high scoring team. They play great defense, yes...but It says something about OUR offense when our losses in that series were by an average margin of 15+. We lost 4-2 by double digits, shooting a whole buncha jump shots.

The secret to beating the Hawks is taking Joe Johnson out of the game. It's not even a matter of making someone else beating you because there is nobody else on this team capable of beating you. Everybody knows that. Crowd Joe, pack the lane, make him take difficult, contested shots through the double team...or make him pass it to [random Hawks jump-shooting player].

How do you propose to fix that?

Well it is certainly not by taking away the guy that draws the consistent double team? You said it yourself.. There's nobody left on this team that can beat an opponent. Hencefourth the way you fix it is get rid of the dead weight, get some guys who can be trusted to get you some points and stick to the gameplan.. then see what happens.

When we play you know what it's like.. It's like that playground team that shows up to an AAU tourney. They have one good guy and everybody else is going for theirs. IF you let that one good guy go off, they will beat you. But if you shut down that one good guy, your ability to win goes up 7 fold. Well, if we're that team, why are we talking about getting rid of that one good guy?? So that those other guys who are not even robins can take the floor and show you how to lose in embarrassing fashion? If we trade Joe for the pieces that have been mentioned... and keep Josh in his contract year... let me tell you what we will be... 32-50.

[Wretch]

Well it is certainly not by taking away the guy that draws the consistent double team? You said it yourself.. There's nobody left on this team that can beat an opponent. Hencefourth the way you fix it is get rid of the dead weight, get some guys who can be trusted to get you some points and stick to the gameplan.. then see what happens.

When we play you know what it's like.. It's like that playground team that shows up to an AAU tourney. They have one good guy and everybody else is going for theirs. IF you let that one good guy go off, they will beat you. But if you shut down that one good guy, your ability to win goes up 7 fold. Well, if we're that team, why are we talking about getting rid of that one good guy?? So that those other guys who are not even robins can take the floor and show you how to lose in embarrassing fashion? If we trade Joe for the pieces that have been mentioned... and keep Josh in his contract year... let me tell you what we will be... 32-50.

Well first, you're assuming here that the plan is simply to move Joe Johnson and get better. If that were the case, I would agree with you. You can't expect to move a guy like that and replace him with trash...and still be able to compete at that level. There is no explaining this to some people, because they are blinded by his contract and they don't understand how this situation is holding him back. Make no mistake, I believe this is Joe's team and he is held back by a weak supporting cast (to include the coach IMO).

That being said, let's talk about Joe Johnson as a part of the core vs. a Joe Johnson centered core.

One of these is a viable option for building a serious playoff contender. The other is still the same team that struggles to find offense when Joe is off. I don't think there's anyone here that's going to argue against the latter. We've all sat here and watched it for the last FOUR years. I guess your contention is if we bring in more help, it would free Joe up? Bring in a post presence that commands a double team? Freeing up Joe to shoot it from the wing or freedom to get into the lane? Possibly bring in a guy like Crawford that can spread the floor with Joe?

My question is, WHO is this dominant post presence that someone is going to just hand to us? Smoove is just not a big enough piece to pry a guy like that away from a team. That player will have to have some baggage as well, because everybody knows that Smoove does. Then we're just back to square one...with Joe supported by a talented player that can't get his game right. Honestly, the best you could hope for is a guy like Horford - BUT WE ALREADY HAVE HIM and it hasn't made a difference.

The only guy I see withing striking distance for us is Pau Gasol...which is probably why we have heard so much about him and Sund. Gasol though, is soft and old. By the time we get it right with him, Joe is older, Pau is really older and a free agent, and we're right back where we are today...but with less assets to deal.

So...for me, it's not about replacing Joe and getting better. If we replace Joe, then we're talking about rebuilding. Considering all this talk about building something from the ground up and all the calls we've been hearing about, I'm pretty sure that's where we're headed. If given the choice between a Joe centered core and rebuilding for the future, I'm choosing the rebuild. We can bat this back and forth all day, but in the end that's what it's coming down to for me.

I'm just not interested in trotting out essentially the same team for 2 or 3 more years. JUST to realize that we need to rebuild.

[KB21]

This is ridiculous. Joe Johnson's wins produced this past year was 5.4. He was 4th on the team in wins produced. This means he only produced a little more than 5 wins with what he does on the court. This team isn't going to get 18 games worse just be trading him. It is utterly ridiculous to think that.

[Admin]

This is ridiculous.Joe Johnson's wins produced this past year was 5.4. He was 4th on the team in wins produced. This means he only produced a little more than 5 wins with what he does on the court. This team isn't going to get 18 games worse just be trading him. It is utterly ridiculous to think that.

This is if you assume that the wins produced stat actually means something. Win shares and wins produced seem awfully subjective to me and nearly impossible to prove or disprove.

[benhillboy]

This is if you assume that the wins produced stat actually means something. Win shares and wins produced seem awfully subjective to me and nearly impossible to prove or disprove.

No stat analysis tells the whole story, but when a player is plugged into these matrices like every other player in the league, how can you dispute it? Just like when he was between Beaubois and Nate Robinson in PER last season, no one has an agenda against him when compiling these stats. There are literally hundreds of "ifs" and "buts" you could qualify for each and every player from watching games when discussing these various comprehensive stat trackers. All I know is all forms of administration in the league value win shares a great deal, so I'd be a fool to not put a little stock into it. Although looking at the games, you could see Al and Josh were more valuable years ago just by their ability to sprint both ends of the floor, something Joe cannot/ will not do. Being fourth on your team in win shares when you're the highest paid by a wide margin is beyond ridiculous, and clearly Ferry realizes this after seeing hours of film where Joe shows no athleticism whatsoever. Its a miracle he posts the averages he has over the years, mainly the result of his hulking presence at the 2. I hate you guys will throw a funeral when he's gone. I really do. I like for Hawks fans to be jubilant. But I'll be throwing an all-weekend block party.

[Antmillennium]

I hate you guys will throw a funeral when he's gone. I really do. I like for Hawks fans to be jubilant. But I'll be throwing an all-weekend block party.

Let me know when you're having your party. I'll be there to celebrate with you.

[atlbraves93]

If we trade Joe for the pieces that have been mentioned... and keep Josh in his contract year... let me tell you what we will be... 32-50.

Come on. We did just fine without Horf for all of last season. Josh, Al, and Teague will be improved. If we get Brooks, that will help us even more. We might not win 50 but getting to the playoffs won't be a problem, especially in the Eastern Conference.