Haha Crooklyn Nets steal JJ from Hawks

[Wretch]

Wretch I still don't understand how we failed joe with the contract. He failed us with it. He was the one that stated he wouldn't come back to Atlanta without it. He wanted nothing less than the contract he was offered. Now if you are going to put the team in a bind by making such financial demands, expect a bullseye on your back.

No one on this board is denying Joe wasn't a heck of a player but with the contract he demanded, our team demanded more and he couldn't deliver. While I still put most of the fault on LD and Woody for not utilizing him in a scheme that could get the most out his skill set, his level of play and leadership just never lived up to the billing.

It wasn't just Atlanta fans that noticed Joe's bad value but the rest of the basketball world knew we were trapped in basketball purgatory with that contract that will only get worst as the years pass by. If Joe had really wanted to make a difference for the team so we could sign other quality FAs to get us closer to championship level, he should have re-negotiated his contract or had Sund put a clause in it to where a pay cut is allowed as long as a topo or very solid FAs are being acquired so the GM will have cap space to work with.

Did he do that? Nope. Didn't even suggest it once but would be the first one crying to the media about how he needs help. Joe was never proactive in helping the Hawks. He was glad he made out with all that money to kit up his vehicle. That alone let me even question if he had championship on his mind. Everybody and the grand dad knew his contract was preventing the GM from helping you but yet you turn a blind eye to it.....knowing how frugal our owners were?

I'm sorry Wretch but we didn't fail JJ. he failed us

I don't recall Joe making a whole lot of noise about his free agency. He gave the standard answers about waiting until the offseason and all that. But I don't believe Joe demanded anything. I recall there being some talk with NY, and some token interest from Chicago, but I don't recall much talk from Joe or his camp at all. Pretty much as soon as the FA'cy period opened, Joe talked to a few teams and then we shoved the largest contract that we could in his face. There was no parlay, there was no talk, there was just this giant contract slapped on him. Joe checked his options, checked that contract, and signed.

This is pretty much what I remember from nearly every report about Joe:

When the Hawks meet with Joe Johnson in Los Angeles soon after the start of the free-agency negotiating period at 12:01 Thursday they are prepared to offer him a six-year contract for the maximum amount allowed, according to people with knowledge of their plans.

- From the AJC, circa June 2010

The people most responsible for JJ's contract are our own management. Joe just took the money.

[Plainview1981]

I don't recall Joe making a whole lot of noise about his free agency. He gave the standard answers about waiting until the offseason and all that. But I don't believe Joe demanded anything. I recall there being some talk with NY, and some token interest from Chicago, but I don't recall much talk from Joe or his camp at all. Pretty much as soon as the FA'cy period opened, Joe talked to a few teams and then we shoved the largest contract that we could in his face. There was no parlay, there was no talk, there was just this giant contract slapped on him. Joe checked his options, checked that contract, and signed. This is pretty much what I remember from nearly every report about Joe: The people most responsible for JJ's contract are our own management. Joe just took the money.

Obviously they were pretty sure he wouldn't take less to stay.

[DarnShadyRefs]

I don't recall Joe making a whole lot of noise about his free agency. He gave the standard answers about waiting until the offseason and all that. But I don't believe Joe demanded anything. I recall there being some talk with NY, and some token interest from Chicago, but I don't recall much talk from Joe or his camp at all. Pretty much as soon as the FA'cy period opened, Joe talked to a few teams and then we shoved the largest contract that we could in his face. There was no parlay, there was no talk, there was just this giant contract slapped on him. Joe checked his options, checked that contract, and signed.

This is pretty much what I remember from nearly every report about Joe:

The people most responsible for JJ's contract are our own management. Joe just took the money.

That's not true Wretch, not only did I see it reported several times by Broussard but I was able to find an excerpt from this article as well coming from his camp:

The key line in Wojnarowski’s story is this: “Johnson is determined to get the sixth guaranteed season on a contract that could only come with re-signing in Atlanta or a sign-and-trade arrangement, sources say.” This is along the lines of what I’ve been saying all along, that guys just don’t leave $25-$30 million on the table. The signals being sent out by J.J,’s camp are clear: If Atlanta offers the most cash, Johnson will re-sign. If not, he will look elsewhere. What’s not clear is if the Hawks are willing to pay J.J. the max if that’s what it takes to keep him.

http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2010/06/28/atlanta-hawks-j-j-to-mavs-knicks-bulls-rockets-or-hawks/?cxntfid=blogs_hawks

He brought it on himself Wretch. He wanted all that money but whines every season about needing help. Trust me.. i'm not shedding any tears. He didn't live up to the target he placed on himself which made him fall out of favor with majority of the fan base and nba community

Edited July 4, 2012 by DarnShadyRefs

[MaceCase]

I don't recall Joe making a whole lot of noise about his free agency. He gave the standard answers about waiting until the offseason and all that. But I don't believe Joe demanded anything. I recall there being some talk with NY, and some token interest from Chicago, but I don't recall much talk from Joe or his camp at all. Pretty much as soon as the FA'cy period opened, Joe talked to a few teams and then we shoved the largest contract that we could in his face. There was no parlay, there was no talk, there was just this giant contract slapped on him. Joe checked his options, checked that contract, and signed.

This is pretty much what I remember from nearly every report about Joe:

The people most responsible for JJ's contract are our own management. Joe just took the money.

Well from his own agent's mouth

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arn-tellem/a-robust-cup-of-joe_b_635159.html

Before becoming a free agent, Joe focused on the Hawks, the Bulls and the Knicks. Chicago offered him a chance to play with the brilliant point guard Derrick Rose and a tough young center, Joakim Noah. A further incentive: the roster included Joe's great friend Jannero Pargo, one of his college teammates. New York has Mike D'Antoni, the coach who nurtured Joe in Phoenix. Joe loved playing for D'Antoni and was excited by the possibility of joining him in New York. It seemed like a perfect match: a tenacious player who never naps on court in the city that never sleeps.

When the free-agency period kicked in, Joe made a point of talking to the Hawks first. Their owners and new coach, Larry Drew, impressed Joe with their commitment to making the team championship-caliber. In turn, Joe felt equally committed to the Hawks, his teammates and the city of Atlanta.

With all his success, Joe remains as grounded as he was a decade ago at our first meeting in Little Rock. His priorities are his family, his friends and his game. Joe could have forced a sign-and-trade deal for five years with another team, but he decided that winning in Atlanta would be more meaningful. When the Hawks offered the maximum -- six years -- he happily reciprocated.

*emphases made by ~LLW

That lil tid bit about forcing a deal elsewhere is telling, it's not as if the Hawks went all in with the Bird Max for no reason. It was give me more money than the rest or I walk. Further proof of him finagling more money rather than just goin "aw, shucks. Well if you just going to drop money in my lap" was this tidbit by Woj that began my souring on Joe.

WojYahooNBA: Deal finally done with Hawks, Joe Johnson had been discussing no-trade clause provisions in $119 million contract, sources say.

......Naw, he knew exactly what he was getting into with that contract.

[Wretch]

That's not true Wretch, not only did I see it reported several times by Broussard but I was able to find an excerpt from this article as well coming from his camp:

The key line in Wojnarowski’s story is this: “Johnson is determined to get the sixth guaranteed season on a contract that could only come with re-signing in Atlanta or a sign-and-trade arrangement, sources say.” This is along the lines of what I’ve been saying all along, that guys just don’t leave $25-$30 million on the table. The signals being sent out by J.J,’s camp are clear: If Atlanta offers the most cash, Johnson will re-sign. If not, he will look elsewhere. What’s not clear is if the Hawks are willing to pay J.J. the max if that’s what it takes to keep him.

http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2010/06/28/atlanta-hawks-j-j-to-mavs-knicks-bulls-rockets-or-hawks/?cxntfid=blogs_hawks

He brought it on himself Wretch. He wanted all that money but whines every season about needing help. Trust me.. i'm not shedding any tears. He didn't live up to the target he placed on himself which made him fall out of favor with majority of the fan base and nba community

Well...you have to know that's Joe's agent talking and not Joe. That's what agents do.

JJ the player was looking for a max contract and he was going to get one from somebody. The kind of deal he was looking for was the same as when he left Phoenix. Though, a max contract from your own team and someone else are two entirely different things. The market for JJ was a max free agent deal. He was not going to take a lowball offer from us and he shouldn't have. That's the statement his camp was making - and rightly so. The negations with us STARTED at a max contract.

What he got though, was something nobody expected - not even Joe himself. He got the MAXIMUM amount of money that we could possibly give him and that is NOT something he demanded. Moreover, JJ was like a plan B for most teams. A decent offer would have been better than the max market value he had, but nowhere near what we put out there. It was fear and bad management that created that contract.

Not the demands of a universally agreed upon 2nd tier star...that barely opens his mouth.

[Wretch]

As far as him forcing a trade...again...there was a market for him and he was a free agent with us. These are his options and it is in the agents' and players' better interest to let teams know what a player's options are. I never read anything saying that Joe and his camp asked for the maximum amount of money that we could offer. Even if they had, so what? That's business. That's not holding a team hostage. We will never know at this point, but if we had put a good deal out there, and Joe had said, "No! GIVE ME MORE MONEY" or if he had made a circus the way LeBron, Melo, and Dwight have...then yeah. We could sit here and demonize him over FORCING us to give him that much money.There were no negotiations and barely any time for anyone to make Joe an offer - which nobody did, because they had their sights set elsewhere and before they could turn there head back to Joe, he was buried in Benjamins.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Wretch

[DarnShadyRefs]

I was just watching ESPN talking about how the Mavs have lost out this offseason since Deron decides to re-sign with the nets and Terry left for Boston.The most important part about the convo was the reporter talking about how Dirk took lees than the Max the year he re-signed with the Mavs so the team would be able to acquire quality FAs such as Tyson Chandler and others they can surround him with. Dwayne Wade and LeBron took slightly less money so they could squeeze Bosh in to the mixThose are guys with championships on their mind. Not Joe. Definitely not Joe

[Wretch]

I was just watching ESPN talking about how the Mavs have lost out this offseason since Deron decides to re-sign with the nets and Terry left for Boston.

The most important part about the convo was the reporter talking about how Dirk took lees than the Max the year he re-signed with the Mavs so the team would be able to acquire quality FAs such as Tyson Chandler and others they can surround him with.

Dwayne Wade and LeBron took slightly less money so they could squeeze Bosh in to the mix

Those are guys with championships on their mind. Not Joe. Definitely not Joe

Joe took the money and I agree with that. I agree that he could have taken less. But my contention is that there was nothing forcing him to take less. It was our people offering, moreso than it was Joe demanding. Hell, the deal was on the table a minute after midnight, July 1st! lol

[DarnShadyRefs]

Wretch I don't know if you are in denial or what. Agents convey exactly what the players they're representing intents are. I posted it in the excerpt for you to read it. Absolving Joe from any of this is reaching borderline delusion. The reason He signed with us was because he wanted Atlanta to pay the full 6th year because we own his bird rights. We were the only team that could offer that.

I'm not disputing he wasn't going to sign the max elsewhere but the only way ,as stated by many reporters covering that offseason, he was going to sign was getting the extra sixth year of of 25 -30 mil.

He could have chosen to sign for the 5yr deal other teams were going to offer him and leave the team with some cap space to work with to maybe add a mid tier FA to help the squad. He could have gone to play with much better teams such as the Bulls, Dallas and others that were closer to championships than we ever were for that same 5yr max deal. Instead he wanted everything Atlanta could muster in that cap space which left us no room to do anything else.

Agents have to know what their players want before they can properly do their jobs. An agent doesn't just act alone or blindly.

He was never about the Championships. He was just about getting paid

The key line in Wojnarowski’s story is this: “Johnson is determined to get the sixth guaranteed season on a contract that could only come with re-signing in Atlanta or a sign-and-trade arrangement, sources say.” This is along the lines of what I’ve been saying all along, that guys just don’t leave $25-$30 million on the table. The signals being sent out by J.J,’s camp are clear: If Atlanta offers the most cash, Johnson will re-sign. If not, he will look elsewhere. What’s not clear is if the Hawks are willing to pay J.J. the max if that’s what it takes to keep him

I Italicized it for you

[MaceCase]

I was just watching ESPN talking about how the Mavs have lost out this offseason since Deron decides to re-sign with the nets and Terry left for Boston. The most important part about the convo was the reporter talking about how Dirk took lees than the Max the year he re-signed with the Mavs so the team would be able to acquire quality FAs such as Tyson Chandler and others they can surround him with. Dwayne Wade and LeBron took slightly less money so they could squeeze Bosh in to the mix Those are guys with championships on their mind. Not Joe. Definitely not Joe

Exactly. He could have gotten just 5 years with full raises like Amar'e too but he just had to have that extra year and 25 mil to make it worth his while to stay and "win a championship in Atlanta". Can't tell me that a guy like this with a super savvy agent even dumbing the legal technicalities down for him isn't self aware enough to realize the implications of signing the richest contract in NBA history. Wretch doesn't get it, he think the Hawks just jumped all the way to 11 without provocation. Joe had a market, yes, but so did every other free agent that summer yet most made concessions for their new teams and old but him. We don't like to discuss players' off the court intelligence but there's no way he was the dumbest one in the league. His own agent admits to the offers that were out there so I don't understand how this can be played off like there was no negotiation involved and pretend that teams cant speak with a player's representation even if they can't officially talk with a player yet. The only line that Sund was able to draw with Joe and his avarice was on the No-Trade clause and thankfully so.

[Wretch]

Yeah, you guys have sunk your teeth into this.

This is along the lines of what I’ve been saying all along, that guys just don’t leave $25-$30 million on the table. The signals being sent out by J.J,’s camp are clear: If Atlanta offers the most cash, Johnson will re-sign. If not, he will look elsewhere. What’s not clear is if the Hawks are willing to pay J.J. the max if that’s what it takes to keep him.

What you bolded is speculation on the part of Wojo as to the motivation behind what keeps a player (any decent player) with their home teams. That is not a statement from Joe or his agent. Moreover, it's not even interesting journalism - the extra year and extra raise flexibility are designed to give the incumbent team the advantage in negotiating with their own free agents.

And the Post article Mace? This is not evidence of the negotiations. This was written AFTER he signed the deal. You haven't shown me anything prior to that showing what Joe and his agent's stance was. Secondly, this is the fluffy PR a sports agent... A sports agent... He is detailing how good Joe is. He is explaining what Joe's options were. He's responding to the generous offer that was placed on the table. There is nothing in that article or anything else that I read or saw that painted any sort of ill picture of Joe.

We offered him a 4 year extension in '09, he turned it down to get a longer deal with more money. What is so terrible and so awful there? He should have taken the shorter deal and be looking at making less money as he's getting older? Are we saying he didn't have a right to explore his options...? And what agent in their right mind is going to convince him to take that offer...when the team would be forced to make a decision at the end of the next season?

In all of this, Joe said little besides that he was going to wait for the free agent period to begin and explore his options. And he barely said that. There is nothing wrong or greedy about that. When the free agency period started, he visited a SINGLE team after meeting with the Hawks. Again, this is not news. We can speculate as to what happened during the very brief negotiations, but Joe was not going to accept the same offer from us that he could get elsewhere. He was not worth more than that much, but we would have to overpay to keep him. Everybody agreed upon that and pretty much everybody expected that - to include his agent.

If this had been any other organization, an agent walking in the door with Joe Johnson looking for 20 million a year is going to get laughed off the table. There would have been some serious negotiation. What you guys are completely looking past is the fact that Joe's offer came as soon as it legally and humanly could.

There was no negotiation. At best, you can say he took the money. Anything else is just speculation.

(...btw, I'm not going to discuss the tomfoolery that Miami did to make that happen. I'm also not going to discuss whether or not sports agents have their own agendas.)

[MaceCase]

Sorry, Wretch. I've been around one too many merrygorounds with Diesel to not be able to tell when a guy is just not going to come off their delusion. I've said all I need to on the matter but you can continue to believe that Joe was just some "aw shucks" kid that got a bag of money dropped in his lap with no provocation and is therefore some tragic hero worthy of being admired and sympathetic towards with an after school special tagline of "what would you have done in his same situation?"

[thecampster]

Sorry, Wretch. I've been around one too many merrygorounds with Diesel to not be able to tell when a guy is just not going to come off their delusion. I've said all I need to on the matter but you can continue to believe that Joe was just some "aw shucks" kid that got a bag of money dropped in his lap with no provocation and is therefore some tragic hero worthy of being admired and sympathetic towards with an after school special tagline of "what would you have done in his same situation?"

Completely agree. This isn't like Josh's situation where he had to go find his own money and newsflash from the Josh Smith Apologist, Josh is no tragic hero either. Getting 12ish million a year to run up and down the court in the ATL is nothing tragic. 20+ million to do the same is no different.

[Guest]

Completely agree. This isn't like Josh's situation where he had to go find his own money and newsflash from the Josh Smith Apologist, Josh is no tragic hero either. Getting 12ish million a year to run up and down the court in the ATL is nothing tragic. 20+ million to do the same is no different.

The difference between the two is that their were several suitors for Joe, not so much for Josh because of his RFA status.

[Diesel]

Well from his own agent's mouth

http://www.huffingto...e_b_635159.html

*emphases made by ~LLW

That lil tid bit about forcing a deal elsewhere is telling, it's not as if the Hawks went all in with the Bird Max for no reason. It was give me more money than the rest or I walk. Further proof of him finagling more money rather than just goin "aw, shucks. Well if you just going to drop money in my lap" was this tidbit by Woj that began my souring on Joe.

......Naw, he knew exactly what he was getting into with that contract.

Sorry, but this reads differently than you describe.

You ignore one thing: "Joe made a point of talking to the Hawks first. Their owners and new coach, Larry Drew, impressed Joe with their commitment to making the team championship-caliber."

The question is did we fail Joe. The answer is obviously Yes.

How committed were they? Let's see. They let Crawford Walk. They kept the team pat. They refused to trade Josh or Marvin for better pieces...

SO here's the deal. You pay a guy championship money and you give him scrubs to play beside. Go ask Erick Dickerson about playing for Indianapolis after being a Ram? Ask Dickerson if the money he made was able to catapult them into the Superbowl contending Colts.

Even though Football has more moving pieces, basketball and football are still team games.

[EazyRoc]

Sorry, but this reads differently than you describe.

You ignore one thing: "Joe made a point of talking to the Hawks first. Their owners and new coach, Larry Drew, impressed Joe with their commitment to making the team championship-caliber."

The question is did we fail Joe. The answer is obviously Yes.

How committed were they? Let's see. They let Crawford Walk. They kept the team pat. They refused to trade Josh or Marvin for better pieces...

SO here's the deal. You pay a guy championship money and you give him scrubs to play beside. Go ask Erick Dickerson about playing for Indianapolis after being a Ram? Ask Dickerson if the money he made was able to catapult them into the Superbowl contending Colts.

Even though Football has more moving pieces, basketball and football are still team games.

Who are we trading Josh and Marvin for that gets us past Miami and Chicago ?

[Wretch]

Sorry, Wretch. I've been around one too many merrygorounds with Diesel to not be able to tell when a guy is just not going to come off their delusion. I've said all I need to on the matter but you can continue to believe that Joe was just some "aw shucks" kid that got a bag of money dropped in his lap with no provocation and is therefore some tragic hero worthy of being admired and sympathetic towards with an after school special tagline of "what would you have done in his same situation?"

You do realize that the worst case scenario you're painting here is that Joe and his agent asked for the maximum amount of money that the Hawks could offer...and the Hawks said "yes." You have nothing to support the claim that Joe held the team hostage... If you did, then you're talking about a period of uncertainty of around 60 seconds? The time it took the ink on offer sheet to dry.

Officially, there was a maximum max offer made to Joe and he accepted - you have not provided anything else but your personal opinion. The offer was made before anyone had a chance to recruit him. There was a purpose to that and my personal opinion was because we had bad management - which is also something that is not new (see the multitudes of bad deals given throughout the game, to include our very own Koncack).

The Hawks made a pre-emptive move to keep Johnson by offering him close to $30 million more than he could find on the open market. The deal, to which he verbally committed Sunday, will be criticized as too much money for a player who isn't viewed among the top 10 in the league.

But it is a smart play by Atlanta, which couldn't afford to lose him.

Read more:

http://sportsillustr...l#ixzz1zcOsXJja

The consensus was that Atlanta shouldn't have given Joe all that money - not that Joe Johnson held the Hawks hostage for a ridiculous contract. The latter would have made Joe a demon in the eyes of the sports media in addition to making our ownership/management look like complete fools (which did happen).

...and yes, we failed Joe because that contract hamstrung us. We all knew it the second it was signed. Joe knew it too, and that much I will not disagree on. Blame him for taking the money, but I'm not going to sit here and condemn him for it (Which is pretty much also the media consensus that I remember after he signed the deal).

Edited July 4, 2012 by Wretch

[DarnShadyRefs]

Sorry, Wretch. I've been around one too many merrygorounds with Diesel to not be able to tell when a guy is just not going to come off their delusion. I've said all I need to on the matter but you can continue to believe that Joe was just some "aw shucks" kid that got a bag of money dropped in his lap with no provocation and is therefore some tragic hero worthy of being admired and sympathetic towards with an after school special tagline of "what would you have done in his same situation?"

I agree Mace. It seems like Wretch and I will have to agree to disagree on this matter. In his primary post, he states how he doesn't recall JJ or his camp demanding the contract so I posted and article to support my response. Then he claims something about his agent and not JJ being the bad guy Now he claims the italicized part of the excerpt from the article I posted was just all speculation even though Wojo and all nba reporters that summer mentioned how clear the intentions coming out of JJs camp were. If don't think JJs agent was already communicating his clients financial terms and conditions to Hawks and other suitors prior to when the Free Agency period commenced, then I will have to question how stoned were you that summer? I mean lets go ahead and discredit every sports article out there then. Why do these reporters even have jobs anyway if they're just making up stuff. Heck I can make up stuff too after some Jack and coke. Why would they put their reputation, which is the one thing these reporters make their name off, at stake over reporting erroneous info? Your're right about something though...JJ always said nothing or too little, he impacted the game very little or if at all, and lead very little as well and the worst part about it was, in regards to the cap space, he left us too little while Max contract worthy players of other teams not only recruited but also left their teams with enough flexibility to build a contender. He was never a championship minded player. He was just a a very solid player who cared all about nothing but the benjamins. At that price you are expected to be more than just solid. I

[MaceCase]

Sorry, but this reads differently than you describe.

You ignore one thing: "Joe made a point of talking to the Hawks first. Their owners and new coach, Larry Drew, impressed Joe with their commitment to making the team championship-caliber."

How bout you and others read the very beginning of that passage

Before becoming a free agent, Joe focused on the Hawks, the Bulls and the Knicks.

SO here's the deal. You pay a guy championship money and you give him scrubs to play beside.

Funny, every other top free agent that summer made concessions in their personal salary in order make sure that they wouldn't be forced to play with just "scrubs". Joe went for the gusto though, the worst free agent in that exalted class somehow ended up with the most lucrative contract out of the bunch......but oh, blame the world for why they couldn't eek out six pence to fit beside him. It was all a lie they made rather than a colossal mistake, one they just as much admitted to when they traded him just two years later for spare parts and a can of grease. Edited July 4, 2012 by MaceCase

[Guest]

Here it is folks - Joe asked for the max, the ASG said OK. They were both short sighted in asking and giving.