Without taking bad contracts, we have no chance

[ATL_BALLER]

Watching Bucher on SC this morning, and what he said made sense: what good does it do for the Magic to add Jeff and Al to a team that's already middle-of-the-pack with Dwight - and strapped with bad contracts that offer little hope in improvement? They've already used the amnesty on Gilbert.This is a new regime there, ready to start completely over. Assuming Houston is willing to give them that cap relief in addition to all those young assets, their deal clearly trumps anything we can offer.I'm not sure it's even possible with our newfound financial flexibility to assume J-Rich, Duhon and co., or if Ferry would even taken it on. So, barring some seriously creative workings with another team - and we've seen how well those work so far with the failed Dwight dealings - I just don't see the Hawks making it happen.

[SuperSavvyNation]

Well, if they are losing DH then they want to maximize the valuable assets that they get in return. That might be draft picks, or it might be young, talented, controllable players. It's pretty easy to see that Atlanta, if they offer that package, would be offering them quality assets and not junk. Would that put them at a championship level? Of course not! But it would be a good foundation. And Horford is much more of a sure thing than any draft pick.

[Dragitoff]

This deal works, but can't be done for 60 days I believe unless NJ reworks their deal with us...Atlanta in: Dwight Howard, Chris Duhon and Jason RichardsonOrlando in: Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Zaza Pachulia, Jordan Farmar, and Jordan WilliamsHarris/Williams/DuhonMorrow/JenkinsRichardson/StevensonSmith/Johnson/ScottHoward/PetroThat's 13 players on the roster. I put Williams at PG since I feel like he'll play a role much like Jamal if he doesn't start. He'll play minutes at both PG and SG.

[coachx]

This deal works, but can't be done for 60 days I believe unless NJ reworks their deal with us... Atlanta in: Dwight Howard, Chris Duhon and Jason Richardson Orlando in: Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Zaza Pachulia, Jordan Farmar, and Jordan Williams Harris/Williams/Duhon Morrow/Jenkins Richardson/Stevenson Smith/Johnson/Scott Howard/Petro That's 13 players on the roster. I put Williams at PG since I feel like he'll play a role much like Jamal if he doesn't start. He'll play minutes at both PG and SG.

and how many picks ? They want 1st round picks. I also see Williams playing at least 3/4 of his minutes at SG.

[Admin]

This deal works, but can't be done for 60 days I believe unless NJ reworks their deal with us... Atlanta in: Dwight Howard, Chris Duhon and Jason Richardson Orlando in: Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Zaza Pachulia, Jordan Farmar, and Jordan Williams Harris/Williams/Duhon Morrow/Jenkins Richardson/Stevenson Smith/Johnson/Scott Howard/Petro That's 13 players on the roster. I put Williams at PG since I feel like he'll play a role much like Jamal if he doesn't start. He'll play minutes at both PG and SG.

There is some question about that 60 days. As I understand it we can trade any of those Nets players the minute that the original deal is signed. The question is whether or not we can combine those players with players already on our roster or not. It may be that we have to wait 60 days to do that.

[ATL_BALLER]

This deal works, but can't be done for 60 days I believe unless NJ reworks their deal with us... Atlanta in: Dwight Howard, Chris Duhon and Jason Richardson Orlando in: Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Zaza Pachulia, Jordan Farmar, and Jordan Williams Harris/Williams/Duhon Morrow/Jenkins Richardson/Stevenson Smith/Johnson/Scott Howard/Petro That's 13 players on the roster. I put Williams at PG since I feel like he'll play a role much like Jamal if he doesn't start. He'll play minutes at both PG and SG.

1. I don't think Orlando is going to wait another 60 days, nor would NJ rework the JJ deal to help us land Dwight. 2. If Howard leaves us in this scenario, we're where Orlando is now, only without any assets to improve, all (including picks) having been moved to acquire D12. Our only hope would be SNT scenarios for Josh and Dwight. Bottom line: it doesn't make sense to add Dwight while also taking on the garbage contracts - and without taking them on, we have no chance to land him. Edited July 11, 2012 by ATL_BALLER

[AHF]

There is some question about that 60 days. As I understand it we can trade any of those Nets players the minute that the original deal is signed. The question is whether or not we can combine those players with players already on our roster or not. It may be that we have to wait 60 days to do that.

I don't know any of the details on this but if you just can't combine them with guys on our roster could you just break that into 2 trades? Al (12M) & Teague (2.4M) & Zaza (5.25M) [total:19.65M] for Dwight (19.5M) Duhon (3.25M) [total: 22.75M]; Jordans ($5M) for Richardson ($5.8M)

[thecampster]

There is some question about that 60 days. As I understand it we can trade any of those Nets players the minute that the original deal is signed. The question is whether or not we can combine those players with players already on our roster or not. It may be that we have to wait 60 days to do that.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q97

Dolfan, see bolded below.

97. When can't a player be traded? Can players be given "no-trade" clauses in their contracts?

A "no-trade" clause prevents the team from trading the player without the player's consent. A no-trade clause can be negotiated into a new contract¹ if the player has been in the NBA for at least eight seasons, and has played for the team with which he is signing for at least four seasons. They don't have to be the four most recent seasons -- for example, Horace Grant received a no-trade clause from Orlando when he signed with them in 2001. He had played for Orlando for the requisite four seasons, but had played for Seattle and Los Angeles in the interim. Very few players actually have one of these negotiated no-trade provisions (currently only Kobe Bryant and Dirk Nowitzki have them).

There are two additional circumstances in which a trade requires the player's consent:

[*]When the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, his Larry Bird/Early Bird rights are not traded with him. The player becomes a Non-Bird free agent instead².

[*]For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent. The player must consent to a trade to any team, although he cannot be traded to the team that signed him to the offer sheet.

In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

[*]For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player immediately, either by himself or without aggregating his salary with other salaries. This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap. (Also see question number 85.)

[*]When the trade deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.

[*]For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after signing a contract as a free agent or matching an offer sheet to a restricted free agent. This obviously does not apply to the trade completing a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 88).

[*]For three months or until January 15 of that season (whichever is later) after re-signing a free agent with Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, if the team is over the cap, the player's prior salary was above the minimum, and he receives a raise greater than 20%.

[*]For 30 days after signing as a draft pick.

[*]For six months after signing a player to an extension that is over the limit (in terms of years, salary or raises) for an extend-and-trade transaction (see question number 91).

[*]After claiming a player on waivers, for 30 days if the player was claimed during the season. If the player was claimed during the offseason, he cannot be traded until the 30th day of the following season.

[*]A team cannot reacquire a player they traded away during that season (a season being July 1 - June 30). If he is waived by his new team, then he cannot re-sign with his original team until the one-year anniversary of the trade, or until the July 1 following the end of his contract, whichever comes first. However, if a team trades a player's draft rights, they can reacquire the player during the same season.

[*]Until the following July 1 if the player was acquired through the Amnesty provision via a secondary waiver claim (see question number 67).

[*]When a player is waived through the Amnesty provision he cannot be reacquired for the length of the terminated contract.

[*]A team cannot acquire players during a season when they do not have room on their 15-man roster, even if they intend to waive an incoming player immediately. For example, a team with 14 players cannot trade one player for three, while simultaneously waiving an incoming player to remain at 15 players³.

¹ A no-trade clause cannot be negotiated into an extension, unless player's existing contract or extension already contained a no-trade clause. ² When there is an option year involved, they may be able to get around this restriction by invoking the option prior to the trade. ³ It is possible to work around this restriction by waiving a current player, executing the trade, waiving one of the incoming players, and then re-signing the original player.

88. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?

There is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under this rule the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract stipulating that the contract is null and void if the trade to the specific team is not completed within 48 hours. To qualify for a sign-and-trade, all of the following must be true:

[*]The player must re-sign with his prior team -- a team cannot include another team's free agent in a sign-and-trade.

[*]The player must finish the preceding season with that team (deals are no longer allowed that sign-and-trade players who are out of the league, such as the sign-and-trade that sent Keith Van Horn from Dallas to New Jersey as part of the Jason Kidd trade in 2008).

[*]The player cannot be a restricted free agent who has signed an offer sheet with another team (see question number 43).

[*]Starting in 2013-14, the team receiving the player cannot be above the "apron" ($4 million above the tax level) after the trade¹.

[*]Starting in 2013-14, the team cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception (see question number 25) that season.

[*]The trade must be completed prior to the first game of the regular season (sign-and-trades are not allowed once the season begins).

[*]The player cannot be signed using the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, or any exception that cannot be used to offer a three-year contract (see question number 25).

A sign-and-trade deal can be made with a free agent who has been renounced, as long as all the above criteria are met. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for at least three seasons (not including any option year) and no longer than four seasons. The first year of the contract must be fully guaranteed, but the remaining seasons can be non-guaranteed. The combination of a three-year minimum with a one-year guarantee ensures that the player's new team cannot acquire the player's Bird rights any sooner than if they had signed him directly (if they wanted to re-sign him in less than three years they would first have to waive him, and lose any Bird rights -- see question number 32).

The starting salary in a contract signed for a sign-and-trade may be any amount up to the player's maximum, however if the player meets the 5th Year 30% Max criteria (see question number 17) he cannot receive a salary greater than 25% of the cap. Raises are limited to 4.5%. The player may be considered to have a lower outgoing salary for trade purposes, which can complicate the trade (see question number 86).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. Any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the team's annual limit for cash included in a trade (see question number 94), which in effect limits the portion of the signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade. See question number 92 for more information on how long a team must wait before they can trade a player. ¹ A different team salary definition is used for determining whether a team is above or below the apron -- see question number 14 for details. Starting in 2013-14 if a team acquires a player in a sign-and-trade, the apron ($4 million above the tax line) effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season.

[Admin]

I don't know any of the details on this but if you just can't combine them with guys on our roster could you just break that into 2 trades?

Al (12M) & Teague (2.4M) & Zaza (5.25M) [total:19.65M] for Dwight (19.5M) Duhon (3.25M) [total: 22.75M];

Jordans ($5M) for Richardson ($5.8M)

Good thinking! See that's why you're a Hawksquawk Evil Capologist!

[thecampster]

I don't know any of the details on this but if you just can't combine them with guys on our roster could you just break that into 2 trades? Al (12M) & Teague (2.4M) & Zaza (5.25M) [total:19.65M] for Dwight (19.5M) Duhon (3.25M) [total: 22.75M]; Jordans ($5M) for Richardson ($5.8M)

Reading what I just posted. The salaries were used to "aggregate" (allow NJ to take on JJ if I'm reading that right). Meaning they are all "bound". So you have to keep them together for 60 days. Unless you are not over the cap when you receive them. Then the rules don't apply. That's how I read it from the rules I just posted.

[Admin]

Thanks for the info overload Camp but that's the old CBA and Mace is saying that has changed in the new CBA. At least I believe that's what he was saying.

[thecampster]

Good thinking! See that's why you're a Hawksquawk Evil Capologist!

unfortunately in our situation you can't though...see above. You can't combine them. You can only send them out...one player at a time.

[AHF]

Good thinking! See that's why you're a Hawksquawk Evil Capologist!

The Jordans being combined part would be a problem in combining them given what you posted:

For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players.

Other players seems like it would include other NJ players we acquired in the same trade.

[thecampster]

http://www.hoopsworl...ba-what-changes That 'change' is not listed, nor have I seen it on multiple sites. Coon says at the top that it reflects the new changes. Edited July 11, 2012 by thecampster

[Admin]

http://www.hoopsworl...ba-what-changes That 'change' is not listed, nor have I seen it on multiple sites.

Doesn't mean that it's not real. Besides, there are probably a half dozen ways around this issue anyway that we have no clue about being laypersons.

[Dragitoff]

1. I don't think Orlando is going to wait another 60 days, nor would NJ rework the JJ deal to help us land Dwight. 2. If Howard leaves us in this scenario, we're where Orlando is now, only without any assets to improve, all (including picks) having been moved to acquire D12. Our only hope would be SNT scenarios for Josh and Dwight. Bottom line: it doesn't make sense to add Dwight while also taking on the garbage contracts - and without taking them on, we have no chance to land him.

I'd even go for the scenario I listed because it gives you a legit chance at being a contender this season. Devin is a smart, vet PG and you'd have a host of shooters along with Dwight and Smith down low. You'd have some solid players, although not flashy coming off the bench. I think that team would be better than the Magic team that went to the Finals a few years ago. Either way, you'd still go into next offseason with only Jenkins, Williams, Duhon, and JRichardson under contract next season. That's still a ton of cap space as well as you could do the S&T options should Dwight and/or Josh decide they still want out. As far as draft picks, we could still give them more than other teams are offering in immediate picks to grow with those guys. We can offer them both our 2013 1st round pick and the one we got from Brooklyn (via Houston). If needed, we can add a future 1st. That's a ridiculously good package for them.