any certain reason why some of you guys are high on alonzo gee?

[thecampster]

Firstly, I understand that it's absolutely impossible for you to read and in doing so it makes your arguments entirely illogical but please, Diesel, tell me when exactly does your plan have the ability to take place? Oh is Bynum and Redick getting signed tomorrow, August 7th, 2012? Or is the team waiting a year to get a shot at them? Sooooooooo why are you in a thread talking about filling out this year's roster........by discussing next year's possible moves?

Secondly, the team is not being run on the cheap, that is your womanly hysterics flaring again as there is a large amount of evidence to the contrary. Had the team been running on the cheap then why would we add both Louis Williams and Kyle Korver? Running on the cheap would have been trading Marvin and Joe and then filling out the roster with DLeaguers and Vet Mins but why exactly did Ferry spend an extra 20.7 million on proven veteran players for this season and beyond? We don't have a difference of opinion on the salary cap because you have zero opinion on the salary cap due to being grossly uninformed on it.

Thirdly, and I have to keep myself from laughing too much, how does trading for an extremely mediocre SF owed 42 million over the next 4 years an attractive plan for winning? Do you just have an affinity for extremely overpaid wing players? How does that help the team this year, the year that you seem to be oblivious to? We are discussing getting young SFs that won't even make a quarter of Gallo's salary yet will give 2/3rds of his production to boost this current squad for their playoff run. Whatever benefits Gallo will give this year will not offset the deficiencies of trading Smoove.....so again, why are you even in this thread? So you can doomsday soothsay about "never ending projects"............before the project has even gotten the opportunity to be set in motion. All because Joey is gone...

This is why I hate the draft and free agent period being immediately after the season ends. 3 months is a long time for people to prognosticate without anything to go on. Do people realize it's been 37 days since FA technically began? So many thoughts and opinions get thrown out and by October 1st, people start believing that a lineup of Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Chauncey Billups, Derrick Rose and Jeff Teague is not only possible but a reality in their home town and a title contender. All they need is to make a few well placed trades.

[thecampster]

Team makeup...salary.Basically, the LT is 70 million (give or take).A team must carry 13 players. That means an average salary of 5.384 million. So when looking at Korver/Williams. Those are average NBA salaries.Now when you sign someone, you look at their number vs the average. Signing a good vet for 2.5 million, changes the percentage per person you can spend on everyone else up a little bit up to 5.625.The same rule applies when signing people to big contracts. This is what people pissed about Joe don't understand. 70 million 13 players is 5.384 million. Every salary slot is slightly more than the MLE. Give out a 20 million dollar contract. You now have 50 million for 12 players or 4.15 million per player. Your average is less than the MLE. This is significant because the best non stars can sign with any team in the league for the MLE. If you can't give that, you can't work. Complicating this is the cap threshold. 58 million. Let's focus on what Josh, Al, Joe did to this number....20 + 13 +12. That's 45 million. Add Marvin and Zaza and bam..you are at the CAP. Now you can technically only sign vet mins and exemption players. It is more complicated than that, but that's the math of it. Now using that model, replace Joe with a 2 million dollar player. That 18 million freed could be used to upgrade Marvin, Zaza. Or...2 - 14 million dollar players at the 3 and or 2 and 5. It isn't being cheap, its being frugal. Saving here to spend there. The Hawks went the other route 2 years ago. They spent first and hand to scrimp later.

[DrReality]

Diesel loves to argue with or without being rational

[clicklandshopping]

The kinder gentler me has prevailed. Previously, I proposed of moving Smoove for Gallanari and then going after Bynum and JJ Redick in FAcy. Moreover, in these terms, those draft picks we have are trade currency as well as organization builders. Bynum is not my top choice because I hate his attitude.. but he is a fit. Bynum, Horf, Gallinari gives us the biggest frontcourt in the league. Redick and Teague gives us two great shooters who can work the inside out game with Bynum and Horf. In the original trade, I suggested Smoove for Gallinari and Mozgov. Mozgov represents a big that can be used behind Bynum. He's that project but there's more to him than Project. This is what I mean by building a championship contender. Not just getting guys with a pulse because they fit under the cap, but getting guys with a purpose. Another thing is that we definitely have Louis Williams off the bench, I would consider one more of our many guards to keep. Maybe Morrow because he is a shooter.

I kinda understand where you are going with this, but a few of the players I don't like. I do like Mozgov this year and Bynum next year, but since that eliminates ZaZa, how about we trade him for Mozgov and Corey Brew. Denver is rich in talent but they need a better center to back up McGee and we need a solid 2 or 3 plus a replacement for ZaZa. Mozgov is that athletic center who was a starter for Denver last year, and Brewer is a very good 2 or 3 that of course know Horford very well and has won a NBA championship with Dallas. Now you have Teague, Brewer,Josh, Al, Mozgov and Bynum next year. Josh is better than Gallo at the 3 or 4 so lets not get him. I'd rather keep Smoove for 6yr/90 million.

[clicklandshopping]

And I don't like J.J Reddick either.

[Diesel]

I kinda understand where you are going with this, but a few of the players I don't like. I do like Mozgov this year and Bynum next year, but since that eliminates ZaZa, how about we trade him for Mozgov and Corey Brew. Denver is rich in talent but they need a better center to back up McGee and we need a solid 2 or 3 plus a replacement for ZaZa. Mozgov is that athletic center who was a starter for Denver last year, and Brewer is a very good 2 or 3 that of course know Horford very well and has won a NBA championship with Dallas. Now you have Teague, Brewer,Josh, Al, Mozgov and Bynum next year. Josh is better than Gallo at the 3 or 4 so lets not get him. I'd rather keep Smoove for 6yr/90 million.

I don't mind that trade for Mozgov. I think he's the kinda project that we should want. Preferrably, I would like Howard much more than Bynum, I just don't think that Howard wants to be here. Therefore, Bynum is the next best C that will be available in 2013.

Unfortunately, guys like Mace can't read and he talks about reading? He missed where I said Bynum and Redick IN FAcy... Maybe it's not reading. Maybe it's the same problem that we're arguing about. People who can't plan beyond what they see today... That's it. I lay out a plan built on the future and certain people argue because it can't be done tomorrow?? This is part of the problem that I'm talking about in this thread.

Hawksfans only want to consider what's available today... right now.. weather it fits or not... Just as long as we can do it today and it keeps us under the cap.

My point is let's build with the end in mind. If you want a team that can get you to the championship, stop trying to build a team for today and hope that the draft lottery will take you there. Build a team with forethought.

As to what has been said about Gallanari.. he's my first example.. however, if you put that 6'10 Sf on the frontcourt with Horford and Bynum, the last thing that anybody will care about is weather or not he's a first option. He's the guy who can shoot over most opponents. He's the guy who will help spread out the floor. Nowhere did I say he would be the star of the team. He's another cog in the championship picture. And that would be a championship picture. What they should have noticed is the philosophy of the team. Inside out game. Not a collection of players that were available when we were looking and we hope that some coach can make them work together. Isn't that what we just had?

[thecampster]

I don't mind that trade for Mozgov. I think he's the kinda project that we should want. Preferrably, I would like Howard much more than Bynum, I just don't think that Howard wants to be here. Therefore, Bynum is the next best C that will be available in 2013.

Unfortunately, guys like Mace can't read and he talks about reading? He missed where I said Bynum and Redick IN FAcy... Maybe it's not reading. Maybe it's the same problem that we're arguing about. People who can't plan beyond what they see today... That's it. I lay out a plan built on the future and certain people argue because it can't be done tomorrow?? This is part of the problem that I'm talking about in this thread.

Hawksfans only want to consider what's available today... right now.. weather it fits or not... Just as long as we can do it today and it keeps us under the cap.

My point is let's build with the end in mind. If you want a team that can get you to the championship, stop trying to build a team for today and hope that the draft lottery will take you there. Build a team with forethought.

As to what has been said about Gallanari.. he's my first example.. however, if you put that 6'10 Sf on the frontcourt with Horford and Bynum, the last thing that anybody will care about is weather or not he's a first option. He's the guy who can shoot over most opponents. He's the guy who will help spread out the floor. Nowhere did I say he would be the star of the team. He's another cog in the championship picture. And that would be a championship picture. What they should have noticed is the philosophy of the team. Inside out game. Not a collection of players that were available when we were looking and we hope that some coach can make them work together. Isn't that what we just had?

No it wasn't.

Teague = Fast, get to the rim PG. Slow into transition...slow reactin times.

Joe = Plodder. Slow in transition. Must dribble before shoot guy.

Marvin = inconsistent shooter. Good defender...Good off the ball....very tentative once he gets the ball

Josh = Fast, fast, fast. Fast in transition, fast in the shot clock. Finisher on D and O.

Al = Fast, consistent, undersized.

Okay are we a fast break team? We could have been but the point guard had tunnel vision heading to the basket.

Are we a half court team? Only in the regular season. Not enough half court scoring.

Are we motion....nope...ball stopped with Joe or a bad Josh shot.

Are we scrappy? not anymore.

What we were is a team without a valid identity. Couldn't run due to Teague's lack of vision, indecisiveness - Joe's lack of speed. Couldn't run the half court offense, the pieces didn't fit well.

I submit we were worse than the sum of our parts. Teague is good but raw. Marvin was very good but a terrible fit. Joe was all wrong for our personnel, evolved system. Josh a poor fit with Joe/Teague (unless Teague starts dribbling/driving with eyes up). Horford not assertive enough. With Joe leaving...Horf can now assert. Hopefully Harris plays enough to benefit Josh and Horf in the halfcourt.

We had personnel but not a good fit. Fit is more important than personnel in my opinion.

[DrReality]

No it wasn't. Teague = Fast, get to the rim PG. Slow into transition...slow reactin times. Joe = Plodder. Slow in transition. Must dribble before shoot guy. Marvin = inconsistent shooter. Good defender...Good off the ball....very tentative once he gets the ball Josh = Fast, fast, fast. Fast in transition, fast in the shot clock. Finisher on D and O. Al = Fast, consistent, undersized. Okay are we a fast break team? We could have been but the point guard had tunnel vision heading to the basket. Are we a half court team? Only in the regular season. Not enough half court scoring. Are we motion....nope...ball stopped with Joe or a bad Josh shot. Are we scrappy? not anymore. What we were is a team without a valid identity. Couldn't run due to Teague's lack of vision, indecisiveness - Joe's lack of speed. Couldn't run the half court offense, the pieces didn't fit well. I submit we were worse than the sum of our parts. Teague is good but raw. Marvin was very good but a terrible fit. Joe was all wrong for our personnel, evolved system. Josh a poor fit with Joe/Teague (unless Teague starts dribbling/driving with eyes up). Horford not assertive enough. With Joe leaving...Horf can now assert. Hopefully Harris plays enough to benefit Josh and Horf in the halfcourt. We had personnel but not a good fit. Fit is more important than personnel in my opinion.

Well said and thus chemistry is going to be important. It will take a while but when it clicks it will be her exciting

[MaceCase]

I don't mind that trade for Mozgov. I think he's the kinda project that we should want. Preferrably, I would like Howard much more than Bynum, I just don't think that Howard wants to be here. Therefore, Bynum is the next best C that will be available in 2013.

Unfortunately, guys like Mace can't read and he talks about reading? He missed where I said Bynum and Redick IN FAcy... Maybe it's not reading. Maybe it's the same problem that we're arguing about. People who can't plan beyond what they see today... That's it. I lay out a plan built on the future and certain people argue because it can't be done tomorrow?? This is part of the problem that I'm talking about in this thread.

Hawksfans only want to consider what's available today... right now.. weather it fits or not... Just as long as we can do it today and it keeps us under the cap.

My point is let's build with the end in mind. If you want a team that can get you to the championship, stop trying to build a team for today and hope that the draft lottery will take you there. Build a team with forethought.

As to what has been said about Gallanari.. he's my first example.. however, if you put that 6'10 Sf on the frontcourt with Horford and Bynum, the last thing that anybody will care about is weather or not he's a first option. He's the guy who can shoot over most opponents. He's the guy who will help spread out the floor. Nowhere did I say he would be the star of the team. He's another cog in the championship picture. And that would be a championship picture. What they should have noticed is the philosophy of the team. Inside out game. Not a collection of players that were available when we were looking and we hope that some coach can make them work together. Isn't that what we just had?

2013 Free Agency

Has nothing to do with Alonzo Gee. You can try tap dancing your way around that but there's a hundred billion threads about me and other's discussing moves for next year.......this thread isn't one of them so you can take that nonsense elsewhere because your "logic" doesn't fit the thread therefore your thoughts are invalid.

Your continuous statements of "keeps us under the cap" is moronic because the Hawks purposefully went out to spend above the cap when they had no reason to.......Well outside of trying to win games in 2012 that is. I've mentioned this a few times but you like to gloss over it. You just like using that tired old card from the old administration.....even though it's currently been demonstrated to be further from the truth with the current group. The team as is couldn't even spend to the Lux tax if it wanted to....they can't shell out enough vet mins and BAE's because they'd hit the roster maximum before that happens. There ain't any other exceptions because the team used the large ones already but the most ironic if not moronic part of your plan is that trading Josh for Gallo is a cap cutting move in 2012.

Your scope is also incredibly retarded because you talk about others hoping for the lottery yet your idea of building for the future is putting out a worse product in 2012 and then hoping it'll have a positive effect on free agency in 2013...... This is where you need to be reigned back in, this is why you can't even bother to debate my points. Everyone is very much aware of the future........but the team is trying to win more games in 2012 before that happens and all it's missing is an athletic and defensive wing....period. Trading for overpaid quatenary players solves nothing for today nor tomorrow but if you are so dead set on him being part of a blueprint for the future then guess what......

The team can absorb Gallo outright for a 2nd rounder next season.

The team can even absorb Rudy Gay outright for John Jenkins next season.

The team can even absorb Kobe frickin Bryant outright for a pack of skittles next season.

Your "plan" offers nothing new but sour grapes and old man venting.

[Diesel]

No it wasn't. Teague = Fast, get to the rim PG. Slow into transition...slow reactin times. Joe = Plodder. Slow in transition. Must dribble before shoot guy. Marvin = inconsistent shooter. Good defender...Good off the ball....very tentative once he gets the ball Josh = Fast, fast, fast. Fast in transition, fast in the shot clock. Finisher on D and O. Al = Fast, consistent, undersized. Okay are we a fast break team? We could have been but the point guard had tunnel vision heading to the basket. Are we a half court team? Only in the regular season. Not enough half court scoring. Are we motion....nope...ball stopped with Joe or a bad Josh shot. Are we scrappy? not anymore. What we were is a team without a valid identity. Couldn't run due to Teague's lack of vision, indecisiveness - Joe's lack of speed. Couldn't run the half court offense, the pieces didn't fit well. I submit we were worse than the sum of our parts. Teague is good but raw. Marvin was very good but a terrible fit. Joe was all wrong for our personnel, evolved system. Josh a poor fit with Joe/Teague (unless Teague starts dribbling/driving with eyes up). Horford not assertive enough. With Joe leaving...Horf can now assert. Hopefully Harris plays enough to benefit Josh and Horf in the halfcourt. We had personnel but not a good fit. Fit is more important than personnel in my opinion.

First off, there are many instances where I said that Marvin should have been gone years ago. He had no go get it in him. Tim Thomas I claimed as he came out and it seems that he still couldn't reach that. However, if the problem was at PG... why not get a Steve Nash? You seem to believe that fast fast Josh is not a problem. When paired with a high post C, Josh is a problem. Josh wants to prove that he can shoot for a living and Horf is not going to fight inside. This was and still is the problems. Our inside scoring, defense, and rebounding is what led us to most of our problems. Joe takes the blame, however, look at what Joe had to work with. 4 guys on the perimeter.

[Diesel]

Well said and thus chemistry is going to be important. It will take a while but when it clicks it will be her exciting

Exactly. CHEMISTRY!!! When we realize that Josh + Horf at the 4 and 5 don't work then we will be on our way.

[Diesel]

2013 Free Agency

Has nothing to do with Alonzo Gee. You can try tap dancing your way around that but there's a hundred billion threads about me and other's discussing moves for next year.......this thread isn't one of them so you can take that nonsense elsewhere because your "logic" doesn't fit the thread therefore your thoughts are invalid.

Your continuous statements of "keeps us under the cap" is moronic because the Hawks purposefully went out to spend above the cap when they had no reason to.......Well outside of trying to win games in 2012 that is. I've mentioned this a few times but you like to gloss over it. You just like using that tired old card from the old administration.....even though it's currently been demonstrated to be further from the truth with the current group. The team as is couldn't even spend to the Lux tax if it wanted to....they can't shell out enough vet mins and BAE's because they'd hit the roster maximum before that happens. There ain't any other exceptions because the team used the large ones already but the most ironic if not moronic part of your plan is that trading Josh for Gallo is a cap cutting move in 2012.

Your scope is also incredibly retarded because you talk about others hoping for the lottery yet your idea of building for the future is putting out a worse product in 2012 and then hoping it'll have a positive effect on free agency in 2013...... This is where you need to be reigned back in, this is why you can't even bother to debate my points. Everyone is very much aware of the future........but the team is trying to win more games in 2012 before that happens and all it's missing is an athletic and defensive wing....period. Trading for overpaid quatenary players solves nothing for today nor tomorrow but if you are so dead set on him being part of a blueprint for the future then guess what......

The team can absorb Gallo outright for a 2nd rounder next season.

The team can even absorb Rudy Gay outright for John Jenkins next season.

The team can even absorb Kobe frickin Bryant outright for a pack of skittles next season.

Your "plan" offers nothing new but sour grapes and old man venting.

There's no reason to argue with you on things already stated....that you failed to read well.

Moreover, my plan deals with specifics and the building of chemistry. Your plan deals with Hope, no chemistry, and no deadlines or goals. Just going with the flow.

Mace, Hawksfans are tired of Going with the flow. People who go with the flow get what they get... and that's the difference between my way and yours. Earlier you said that we have all the time in the world because Josh Smith is 27. Even a 27 year old Josh Smith is tired of going with the flow.

So is Horf. Unlike your go with the flow nature, most people look for meaning and purpose. Show me your plan and explain the purpose.

We already see that the first step of your plan is to get Gee because it keeps us under the cap. What's next.....

Maybe you need to get your bag of skittles and see if Kobe will come... that's the kind of hope you have been selling thus far..

Outline a plan Mace... or STFU.

[EazyRoc]

There's no reason to argue with you on things already stated....that you failed to read well.

Moreover, my plan deals with specifics and the building of chemistry. Your plan deals with Hope, no chemistry, and no deadlines or goals. Just going with the flow.

Mace, Hawksfans are tired of Going with the flow. People who go with the flow get what they get... and that's the difference between my way and yours. Earlier you said that we have all the time in the world because Josh Smith is 27. Even a 27 year old Josh Smith is tired of going with the flow.

So is Horf. Unlike your go with the flow nature, most people look for meaning and purpose. Show me your plan and explain the purpose.

We already see that the first step of your plan is to get Gee because it keeps us under the cap. What's next.....

Maybe you need to get your bag of skittles and see if Kobe will come... that's the kind of hope you have been selling thus far..

Outline a plan Mace... or STFU.

But we are already over the cap ?

[MaceCase]

But we are already over the cap ?

He will continue to miss that point now and forever......especially the part that the team was under the cap and added Louis and Korver to take them over the cap. Clearly the signs of a team just going with the flow and heading to the depths of the lottery with no plan for this season. Wait, what's that Danny?

"The ball will be in Devin Harris' hands a lot and Jeff Teague's hands a lot. We'll have space for them to attack the rim. We'll play through Josh (Smith) a little more. We'll use Josh and Al (Horford) to pick-and-roll or post up. We'll be fun to watch."

Sounds like a lot of koolaid being handed out for a lost season.

[Diesel]

But we are already over the cap ?

And? I mean, the thing is that there are some that want to get him because he's cheap right? I'm sure that they are talking about trading somebody... Right? My point is Show me your plan.

Mace... that's for you... Show me your plan.

[Diesel]

He will continue to miss that point now and forever......especially the part that the team was under the cap and added Louis and Korver to take them over the cap. Clearly the signs of a team just going with the flow and heading to the depths of the lottery with no plan for this season. Wait, what's that Danny?

Mace... you're being about as cowardly as a poster can be right now. It's very simple... SHOW ME YOUR PLAN.

[MaceCase]

I showed my plan already actually but I'll indulge your feeble attempt at derailing in an attempt to hide your foolishness.

Ferry's boring 2012 plan

Teague/Harris/Williams

Morrow/Williams/Jenkins/Stevenson

Korver/Vet min SF/Morrow/Smoove/Stevenson

Smoove/Ivan/Scott/Horford/Jordan Williams

Horford/Zaza/Petro

That team there wins 44+ games in the East, even makes it to the second round but ugh, sooooooo boring.

Mace's super cool and absolutely likely plan to win a championship in 2013*

Louis/TBD

James Harden/Louis

Rudy Gay/Dorrel Wright

Al Horford/Scott

Nikola Pekovic/Al Horford.

Tada! Look at all I accomplished by posting a "plan". Now my argument is completely valid because I also dabbled in a fantasy trade.

[Diesel]

I showed my plan already actually but I'll indulge your feeble attempt at derailing in an attempt to hide your foolishness.

Ferry's boring 2012 plan

Teague/Harris/Williams

Morrow/Williams/Jenkins/Stevenson

Korver/Vet min SF/Morrow/Smoove/Stevenson

Smoove/Ivan/Scott/Horford/Jordan Williams

Horford/Zaza/Petro

That team there wins 44+ games in the East, even makes it to the second round but ugh, sooooooo boring.

Mace's super cool and absolutely likely plan to win a championship in 2013*

Louis/TBD

James Harden/Louis

Rudy Gay/Dorrel Wright

Al Horford/Scott

Nikola Pekovic/Al Horford.

Tada! Look at all I accomplished by posting a "plan". Now my argument is completely valid because I also dabbled in a fantasy trade.

Your 2012 team wins about 31 games in the East.

That team is no better than what NJ put up last year. In fact, I believe NJ had more talent. They had a legit allstar. Your team has NO DEFENSE... It has a bunch of shooter with no inside play. And Lord forbid that we lose Smoove. He's the only thing that we have that can score.

That's the reality.

Your supercool team... Doesn't sniff a championship.

How is that team any better than the team that Memphis put up the last few years?

Harden in the finals didn't show you anything?

Rudy Gay??? Are you superstar?

Again, where's the defense?

Once again, you go out and look at whoose going to be available and put them in without considering fit/chemistry.

I like that you thought about trading Smoove for Gay. That's about the one move you suggest that could make sense. It does free up Horf to go to PF... However, why doesn't Gay and Z-Bo work? Z-Bo is the post offensive player that we would wish Horf to be. However, Z-Bo and Gay can't find chemistry. It's not coaching, it's Gay. While he looks good on paper, he needs a lot from a PG.

Horf is a lesser Z-Bo at PF... He and Gay won't work either.

Your idea of Horf and Pekovic is a good one. Offensively.

So you trade away Teague and you replace him with Louis? Louis can't run a vacuum cleaner and you want to give him an offense? That's a S. Gwinnett Homer Call. Philly found Louis' best role. Off the bench scorer in the Crawford mold.

Like I said, they won't sniff it.

I would have been more impressed if you said we would suck in 2012 and we could get Ian Miller in the draft.

At least then, there would be a prospect.

Or maybe you could have said that we go all out for Rondo?

But Louis?

[MaceCase]

Heard it here first, the Hawks are going to lose 51 games in 2012 unless they trade Josh for Gallinari.

[Diesel]

Heard it here first, the Hawks are going to lose 51 games in 2012 unless they trade Josh for Gallinari.

Josh for Gallinari/Mozgov. Yes.. they will. And they will have a shot at a great draft pick and lots of cap room. And a 7'1 260 center, and a 6'10 SF on the roster. I told you before that you drunk the Koolaid. There's no championships to be won in Atlanta this year. Fact is that the Rockets pick we go in the Joe trade is top 14 protected. So... If we lose 51, get rid of a sometimes malcontent who will be playing for a contract, and land a 6'10 Sf who can put up 15, 5 and a 7'1 260 lb center who can learn to be more physical... and on top of that get a lottery pick..... I'd waste a year for a shot to get either Shabazz Muhammed or James McAdoo or at worst Cody Zeller. Then on top of that.. with talent in hand, talent in pocket.. I would go shopping for some players to make us winners now. Like I said, the plan is centered around building a team for the future. Not seeing what's out there right now and saying... these piece can work. That's not building with the end in mind, that's knee jerk building.