Danny Ferry - the Grim Reaper

[atlbraves93]

I would have not have traded Joe unless we made a major move to replace. I thought that Dwight was that move and now I hear the Hawks were never really in it. Once again the good teams like the Lakers get better and we tread water. That is unacceptable to me. Am I asking or expecting too much?

If we stood pat with Joe we would not be making any big moves in the future, and we'd have to deal with his absurd contract and declining skills. It was literally impossible to get any more for Joe than we did. I know we wanted to get Dwight this year, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Now we have the freedom to make some moves in 2013 FAcy, and compete for a title from next year onward, neither of which we could have done with JJ.

[Ruckus]

James Harden is not a Joe Johnson. Please stop making that comparison. I was 100% behind getting rid of Joe and positioning ourselves for a more flexible future but if we waste that money on a max contract for Harden I would be hugely dissapointed. I like Harden as a role player but he is NOT a max quality player.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If we stood pat with Joe we would not be making any big moves in the future, and we'd have to deal with his absurd contract and declining skills. It was literally impossible to get any more for Joe than we did. I know we wanted to get Dwight this year, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Now we have the freedom to make some moves in 2013 FAcy, and compete for a title from next year onward, neither of which we could have done with JJ.

LOL @ literally impossible to get any more for Joe than we did. That is nonsense. He wasn't even on the trading block, so we don't know what we could've gotten for him. Ferry flat out said that we weren't looking to trade JJ, and that the Nets approached THEM about JJ's availiability. What Hawks fans don't want to admit, is that the Nets "played us". - when we asked for the Nets to include THEIR draft pick in the deal, the Nets said no. - when we asked for MarShon Brooks to be included in the deal, the Nets said no. Once the Nets figured out that we were desperate to get JJ's contract off the books, they basically played hardball with us, and we folded like a cheap tent. Had the rest of the league thought that we'd deal JJ for what we dealt him for, I'd guarantee you that we could've gotten better deals than what we got. Ferry did what he set out to do . . . give the Hawks "cap flexibility". What he hasn't done, is give any star free agent a reason to sign in Atlanta in 2013. Because if the situation were reversed, and the Nets wanted and got Josh Smith, Deron Williams would've been a Dallas Maverick right now. Why? Because Josh Smith, as good as he is, isn't enticing any free agent to come play with him. So it was/is Ferry's job to put this team in the best possible scenario going into the future. When he let a 6 time All-Star go for some smashed up M&Ms, he didn't do his job.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

James Harden is not a Joe Johnson. Please stop making that comparison. I was 100% behind getting rid of Joe and positioning ourselves for a more flexible future but if we waste that money on a max contract for Harden I would be hugely dissapointed. I like Harden as a role player but he is NOT a max quality player.

Harden has a chance to be better than JJ. His game is legit. Just because he didn't perform well in the Finals, doesn't mean that the kid is now garbage. Like JJ, he might just flourish as a player if he played out from under Durant and Westbrook's shadow. The fact is that the Hawks are going to have to bring in a Harden-like player with this "cap space". The major superstars are not coming here. So the target will be on the 2nd and 3rd tier type stars. It'll have to be, if the Hawks want to stay competitive.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If we stood pat with Joe we would not be making any big moves in the future, and we'd have to deal with his absurd contract and declining skills. It was literally impossible to get any more for Joe than we did. I know we wanted to get Dwight this year, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Now we have the freedom to make some moves in 2013 FAcy, and compete for a title from next year onward, neither of which we could have done with JJ.

If we stood pat with Joe, it means that we'd have to deal either Horford or Smith to possibly make the team better. I mean, God forbid that we trade Smith + Marvin for a guy like Pau Gasol, who once again proved today that he's an elite PF in basketball, with his damn near triple-double vs Team USA today ( 24 pts - 8 reb - 7 asst ). Or how about the MAJOR power move, and trade Smith + Horford for Dwight and one of their bad contracts ( preferably Richardson ) Those would be unpopular moves with the fan base, but those moves would've made the Hawks a better team. Once again, trading JJ isn't the real problem here. It's what we traded him FOR, that's the problem. It's the fact that he could've been a chip that could've gotten us a better player(s) or better draft picks, that's the problem. A lot of you who are rooting for Anthony Morrow to be a big time contributor on this team, may be sorely disappointed in him come Christmas. But not to worry . . we have a jersey named "cap space" hanging in JJ's old locker. My hope is that Smith or Horford take their game to that next level, and become legit All-Star talents who can not only be a top 7 performer at their position, but possess the ability to win games at the end.

[atlbraves93]

I mean, God forbid that we trade Smith + Marvin for a guy like Pau Gasol, who once again proved today that he's an elite PF in basketball, with his damn near triple-double vs Team USA today ( 24 pts - 8 reb - 7 asst ).

So we can be even more old, overpaid, AND soft to boot? Where do I sign up for that?

Or how about the MAJOR power move, and trade Smith + Horford for Dwight and one of their bad contracts ( preferably Richardson )

No way Dwight re-signs with ATL in a million years. He has reiterated time and time again that the Hawks are not a preferred landing sport. Dealing Josh and Al (who is locked up for a while) just for a 1/2 year rental of Dwight would set the franchise back a long time.

Once again, trading JJ isn't the real problem here. It's what we traded him FOR, that's the problem. It's the fact that he could've been a chip that could've gotten us a better player(s) or better draft picks, that's the problem.

I just don't think we could have gotten more. I think a major reason Brooklyn was willing to take on Joe's massive abomination of a contract was that they didn't have to give up a ton of talent in return. If we asked them to give up a key piece IN ADDITION to taking on that contract, then forget about it.

The bottom line is, for what we paid JJ, we could get a lot more bang for our buck. By trading him away for (essentially) cap space, we are basically allowing ourselves to get more value for that money in 2013 FAcy.

Edited August 13, 2012 by atlbraves93

[Vol4ever]

If we stood pat with Joe we would not be making any big moves in the future, and we'd have to deal with his absurd contract and declining skills. It was literally impossible to get any more for Joe than we did. I know we wanted to get Dwight this year, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Now we have the freedom to make some moves in 2013 FAcy, and compete for a title from next year onward, neither of which we could have done with JJ.

In my case Rome wasnt built in 34 years in regards to the Hawks. How long does it take? The best shot we ever had was when we had a superstar in Nique. The problem with that team was Boston had the mental toughness and more talent.

[High5]

I didn't know Hawksquawk had so many GM's!

People are talking like Ferry is just throwing darts at player names and going with the results. Diesel saying Ferry has no plan. Give me a break. The plan could certainly turn out to be a poor one, but he definitely has a plan and so far he's done a solid job.

[Seano]

Or how about the MAJOR power move, and trade Smith + Horford for Dwight and one of their bad contracts ( preferably Richardson ) Those would be unpopular moves with the fan base, but those moves would've made the Hawks a better team.

Wow.....are you fricken kidding me? Look at the platter of poop the Magic ended up getting for Deewhight....yet you're proposing we should have emptied the cupboard for the rental of him (plus making Orlando better than us in the process), AND taken one of their crap contracts....and this would make us better exactly how??? Sorry fella, just not getting where you're coming from with that.

[atlbraves93]

In my case Rome wasnt built in 34 years in regards to the Hawks. How long does it take? The best shot we ever had was when we had a superstar in Nique. The problem with that team was Boston had the mental toughness and more talent.

I know years and years of mediocrity have made us cynical of front office moves, but the new regime deserves a chance to see what it can do. Ferry comes from San Antonio and seems to have the blueprint for a well-oiled basketball machine.

[MaceCase]

So let's see. JJ getting shopped to the Nets wasn't exactly a secret yet......am I reading this correctly......he is a desired piece around the league but for some reason no other team stepped up and said "you're trading JJ for THAT?! Hol up, we'll give you something better". Where exactly was the bidding???? Why weren't other teams inquiring??? What exactly would motivate someone to JUMP at a deal like that??? (hint, it was the only one on the table) Or should I believe that Danny Ferry's right hand man here has inside info that the Hawks turned down better packages left and right instead opting for the Jersey deal.Lol, the things people will come up with to try and avoid the reality that the JJ trade was his market value. People can mention Orlando getting shit for Dwight but two All Stars were also moved in that deal because his value facilitated it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Wow.....are you fricken kidding me? Look at the platter of poop the Magic ended up getting for Deewhight....yet you're proposing we should have emptied the cupboard for the rental of him (plus making Orlando better than us in the process), AND taken one of their crap contracts....and this would make us better exactly how??? Sorry fella, just not getting where you're coming from with that.

And the alternative was/is what? Hope he comes to ATL on his own free will to play with his old high school buddies? Or hope that Chris Paul says . . "you know what? I don't want to play with Blake Griffin in LA. I want to play with Josh and Al in Atlanta"? The fact is that the team who holds the Bird Rights to Dwight Howard, has the inside track to keep him, because that's 20 - 25 million extra he's going to get from us. And if he wants to leave, and he wants that extra money, that team is going to have to give us a significant package to get him ( which would include multiple draft picks and maybe a good player ). That's why he's not leaving the Lakers to go to Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, or wherever. The Magic CHOSE to take that "platter of poop" for Dwight. They could've gotten much better talent in return than what they did. But like the Hawks with JJ, the objective was to shed salary. But unlike the Hawks, their objective was also to get multiple draft picks for Howard. You take this team that we're rolling with this year PG - Teague G - Harris F - Smith PF - Horford C - Zaza 6th - Lou Williams And I'll take this team if Smith + Horford was traded for Howard and Jason Richardson PG - Teague G - Richardson F - Johnson PF - Marvin C - Howard 6th - Zaza And I would bet money that my team not only trumps what the Hawks would do this year, they'd at least give a team like Boston a challenge for one of those top 2 or 3 spots in the East. And if people still wanted to make the Marvin for Harris trade, you do that, and you'd now have your backup PG to run the squad. Just slide Ivan into the starting PF spot. But for the first time since the days of Dikembe, the Hawks would have their legit center . the most dominant center in the league. And a legit 1st or 2nd team All-NBA player . . which is almost a prerequisite for any team wanting to win an NBA Championship. Even the 2003 Pistons had a 2nd team All-NBA player in Ben Wallace. If Howard STILL left, you simply dismantle the team at that point. But the bottom line is that at least we TRIED to make it work with a superstar, instead of holding on to Smith and Horford like they're the Big and Little jokers in a Spades game . . . when in reality, they're the Queen and Jack of Spades. Nice trump cards to have, but you can't automatically count them to get you a ( book or a trick ).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I know years and years of mediocrity have made us cynical of front office moves, but the new regime deserves a chance to see what it can do. Ferry comes from San Antonio and seems to have the blueprint for a well-oiled basketball machine.

So let's see. JJ getting shopped to the Nets wasn't exactly a secret yet......am I reading this correctly......he is a desired piece around the league but for some reason no other team stepped up and said "you're trading JJ for THAT?! Hol up, we'll give you something better". Where exactly was the bidding???? Why weren't other teams inquiring??? What exactly would motivate someone to JUMP at a deal like that??? (hint, it was the only one on the table) Or should I believe that Danny Ferry's right hand man here has inside info that the Hawks turned down better packages left and right instead opting for the Jersey deal. Lol, the things people will come up with to try and avoid the reality that the JJ trade was his market value. People can mention Orlando getting shit for Dwight but two All Stars were also moved in that deal because his value facilitated it.

Get your facts straight. JJ was not shopped to anyone. Word of that deal came out of nowhere on a Saturday night, and the deal was done by late Monday. Ferry himself said that they weren't actively looking to shop JJ. But when the Nets inquired about him, they started talking to see if a deal could get done. Ferry didn't come to the Hawks, take the job, and say . . . "Hey NBA, do you want Joe Johnson? Come and get him." Heck, the hot rumors at that time were surrounding Al Horford possibly being traded for the #2 pick, and Josh Smith being dealt. As for JJ . . . Jersey basically got tired of dealing with Orlando, and went with Plan B ( Joe Johnson ), to see if that would be enough to entice Williams to re-sign . . . and form potentially the NBA's best backcourt, even if they couldn't cut a deal to also bring in Dwight. And it worked. Edited August 13, 2012 by northcyde

[Ruckus]

Harden has a chance to be better than JJ. His game is legit. Just because he didn't perform well in the Finals, doesn't mean that the kid is now garbage. Like JJ, he might just flourish as a player if he played out from under Durant and Westbrook's shadow. The fact is that the Hawks are going to have to bring in a Harden-like player with this "cap space". The major superstars are not coming here. So the target will be on the 2nd and 3rd tier type stars. It'll have to be, if the Hawks want to stay competitive.

No. Not for max. He is not a leader/star.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No. Not for max. He is not a leader/star.

We're not going to have much of a choice, unless you want to tank and try your luck in the lottery. Almost everyone gets overpaid in the NBA, especially when they'll be the best player on a team. What we really need is for Smith or Horford to get to that next level as players. I personally liked what I saw out of Horford in those two playoff games. But that's way too small of a sample size to think he can be the main man. But if he can, that will be huge for the future. But it's going to have to be either Josh or Al, that takes that next step.

[Seano]

The Magic CHOSE to take that "platter of poop" for Dwight. They could've gotten much better talent in return than what they did. But like the Hawks with JJ, the objective was to shed salary. But unlike the Hawks, their objective was also to get multiple draft picks for Howard.

So Orlando was all about the picks, eh? Have you taken a look at the dubious, tenuous, totally uncertain and highly restricted as well as conditional aspect of those picks they did receive? This courtesy of the Orlando Sentinel 8/11/2012:

"{The Orlando Magic acquired a total of five draft picks in the blockbuster trade that sent Dwight Howard to theLos Angeles Lakers.

Three of those picks are conditional first-round picks. Two are second-round picks (one of them protected and conditional).

Here is a breakdown of each of those picks, specifically explaining the conditions that apply to each one:

2014 first-round pick from the Denver Nuggets

The Nuggets have two first-round picks in 2014: their own pick and a pick from the New York Knicks. The Magic will receive the less favorable of the two picks.

One future first-round pick from the Philadelphia 76ers

This pick is tied to a previous trade between the Sixers and the Miami Heat, and the Magic cannot receive the pick from the Sixers from the Howard deal until the Sixers satisfy their prior commitment to the Heat.

Here’s the CliffsNotes version:

• If the Sixers make the playoffs in 2012-13, the Magic will receive a protected Sixers first-round pick in 2015.

• If the Sixers don’t make the playoffs until 2013-14, the Magic will receive a protected Sixers first-round pick in 2016.

• Even if the Sixers still haven’t made the playoffs by 2014-15, the Magic will receive a protected Sixers first-round pick in 2017.

Now, remember that the pick the Magic are getting will be protected. Here are the terms of that protection:

• 2015 draft: The Magic will receive the pick if it falls from 15th overall to 30th overall. If the pick falls from first overall to 14th overall, Philly will keep the pick and Orlando instead will receive a protected first-round pick in 2016.

• 2016 draft: The Magic will receive the pick if it falls from 15th overall to 30th overall. If the pick falls from first overall to 14th overall, Philly will keep the pick and Orlando instead will receive a protected first-round pick in 2017.

• 2017 draft: The Magic will receive the pick if it falls from 12th overall to 30th overall. If the pick falls from first overall to 11th overall, Philly will keep the pick and Orlando instead will receive a protected first-round pick in 2018.

• 2018 draft: The Magic will keep the pick if it falls from ninth overall to 30th overall. If the pick falls from first overall to eighth overall, Philly will keep the pick and Orlando instead will receive a second-round pick in 2018 and a second-round pick in 2019. (Why would the Magic forfeit a first-round pick? Because the new CBA prohibits teams from trading a first-round pick seven years out.)

One future first-round pick from the Lakers

This pick is tied to the Lakers’ sign-and-trade deal with the Phoenix Suns for Steve Nash, and the Magic cannot receive the Lakers’ first-round pick until the Lakers satisfy their obligation to the Suns.

That said, the only way the Magic don’t get a protected pick from the Lakers for the 2017 draft is if the Lakers are terrible in 2012-13 and fail to make the playoffs. That’s not going to happen.

But if the Lakers don’t make the playoffs until 2013-14, the Magic would get a Lakers’ protected first-round pick in 2018. If by some miracle the Lakers don’t make the playoffs in any of the next three seasons, the Magic would not get a first-round pick from the Lakers and instead would get the Lakers’ second-round pick in 2017 and the Lakers’ second-round pick in 2018 because of the CBA rule that prevents a team from trading a first-round pick seven years out.

Here are the protection terms:

• 2017 draft: The Magic will receive the pick if it falls from sixth overall to 30th overall. If the pick falls from first overall to fifth overall, L.A. will keep the pick and Orlando instead will receive a protected first-round pick in 2018.

• 2018 draft: The Magic will receive the pick if it falls from sixth overall to 30th overall. If the pick falls from first overall to fifth overall, L.A. will keep the pick and Orlando instead will receive a first-round pick in 2019.

• 2019 draft: Unprotected. The Magic will receive the pick no matter what it falls.

2013 second-round pick from the Nuggets

This pick originally belonged to the Golden State Warriors, so the picks place in the second round will be determined by how the Warriors finish during the 2012-13 season.

2015 second-round pick from the Lakers

The Lakers will keep the pick if it falls from 31st overall to 40th overall. If that occurs, the pick disappears and the Magic won’t receive a second-round pick from the Lakers."

If that represents a quality haul of picks for you, then I don't even know what to say in response to that. And you're welcomed and entitled to your opinion, but I'm equally entitled to mine, so I will continue to insist that in light of what the Magic ultimately received for Horward, your suggestion that it would have been a good idea for us to trade Smoove PLUS Horf for him is just absolute freaking lunacy.

[Guest Walter]

There is a guy in Dallas who would've definitely considered taking a guy like JJ off of our hands, especially after he lost the opportunity to get D-Will and Dwight Howard.

The same guy that refused to retain an aging championship team and resign Chandler would want to older? Geeze. Maybe, but you don't think that Dallas knew that if JJ signed with the Nets that Dallas wasn't going to get Deron? You don't think that Dallas had a chance to make on offer for JJ in the face of the fact that they weren't going to get Deron? You don't think that if they did make a (better) offer for JJ we wouldn't take it? WE GOT ONE OFFER FOR JJ when he's still playing at a marginal all-star level. You think we would get several more offers for him a year older, slower, and more expensive? W

[Guest Walter]

James Harden is not a Joe Johnson. Please stop making that comparison. I was 100% behind getting rid of Joe and positioning ourselves for a more flexible future but if we waste that money on a max contract for Harden I would be hugely dissapointed. I like Harden as a role player but he is NOT a max quality player.

JJ as an older NBA player avg. 8PPG/21 MPG, 9.5/28, and 10/32 in his 1st 3 years.

Harden 10PPG/23 MPG, 12/27, and 17/31 PPG (BTW on 49%/39% shooting BOTH better than JJ has EVER shot!)

Seriously, if Harden does not project as a (off rookie scale) max type player then JJ was a far cry from it. You can believe what you want about Harden vs JJ, but the stats only support Harden was better, will be better overall, and in some cases is already better than JJ ever was or will be.

W

[Guest Walter]

No. Not for max. He is not a leader/star.

...like JJ was? Harden could back his way into the room and lead more than JJ. I like JJ but he was no leader. Harden is hands down statistically better than JJ in their first 3 years. Hand down. Not even remotely close. Also, His (off rookie scale) "max" is HALF of what JJ will cost. "Max" is relative. W

[AHF]

My $.02 on a couple of items:(1) I think that Harden will have a max contract and that this is a foregone conclusion. (2) I think that it is crazy to think there was a lot of interest for JJ with his contract in the market or to think that Ferry didn't make some calls to other teams before pushing the button on the JJ trade to NJ.(3) Orlando definitely took a poo-poo platter of picks and players. That doesn't influence the decision (too much) for me of what I would give up for Howard given that you know Orlando would have to get a relative premium from us to deal within the division. The only question is whether putting Horford, Smith, etc. on the table makes sense - not so much whether it is better than the ultimately terrible deal that they took.