Danny Ferry - the Grim Reaper

[MaceCase]

Get your facts straight.

Get your facts straight, The framework for a deal was agreed to in principal on the July 2nd. No deal could be consummated during that period as it was illegal until July 11th. Rumors and reports of Joe Johnson being discussed in a trade (and I'm sure actual discussions preceeded this) dated further back to June 30th.

That was my question to you, where are your facts of Joe having a higher value than what he was traded for? You are talking out two sides of your mouth, he wasn't on the market but clearly he was seeing as a team made an offer for him and Ferry took it......

1) Teams can make pitches for players and picks whenever they so see fit....you don't have to actively shop a guy and say "what will you give me?" You can sit back and if something piques your interest you say "okay, let's talk". Especially since this piece is so desirable*.

2) You are looking at a period of 2 weeks that teams knew for fact that the Hawks were letting Joe go and for exactly what....where were the better offers? Where were teams saying "we can easily top that and it'll be worth it for us!"??? Where was Cuban? Where was MJ? Where was Gilbert?

*sarcasm.

[frosgrim]

And the alternative was/is what? Hope he comes to ATL on his own free will to play with his old high school buddies? Or hope that Chris Paul says . . "you know what? I don't want to play with Blake Griffin in LA. I want to play with Josh and Al in Atlanta"? The fact is that the team who holds the Bird Rights to Dwight Howard, has the inside track to keep him, because that's 20 - 25 million extra he's going to get from us. And if he wants to leave, and he wants that extra money, that team is going to have to give us a significant package to get him ( which would include multiple draft picks and maybe a good player ).

You are forgetting the $100 million shoe contract in this argument. Dwight wanted LA or Brooklyn to get his shoe money, simple as that. So, while he'd get say $25 million more with the NBA contract, he'd loose $75 million in the net. Dwight's a smart guy for going to LA given this part of the equation. In the end, with that shoe deal the Hawks had NO chance of keeping Dwight, unfortunately.

[Diesel]

Harden has a chance to be better than JJ. His game is legit. Just because he didn't perform well in the Finals, doesn't mean that the kid is now garbage. Like JJ, he might just flourish as a player if he played out from under Durant and Westbrook's shadow. The fact is that the Hawks are going to have to bring in a Harden-like player with this "cap space". The major superstars are not coming here. So the target will be on the 2nd and 3rd tier type stars. It'll have to be, if the Hawks want to stay competitive.

For everybody that believes this. In your mind have JJ trade places with Harden. What kind of team is OKC now?

[Diesel]

People are talking like Ferry is just throwing darts at player names and going with the results. Diesel saying Ferry has no plan. Give me a break. The plan could certainly turn out to be a poor one, but he definitely has a plan and so far he's done a solid job.

Ferry has no plan to the championship. Ferry has an agenda... Get Capspace. However, he has no details after that.

[atlbraves93]

For everybody that believes this. In your mind have JJ trade places with Harden. What kind of team is OKC now?

Same/slightly worse in the present, absolutely screwed for the long term.

[atlbraves93]

Ferry has no plan to the championship. Ferry has an agenda... Get Capspace. However, he has no details after that.

I am quite sure that Ferry and Co. have a solid plan for what they are going to do in the future.

[Guest]

For everybody that believes this. In your mind have JJ trade places with Harden. What kind of team is OKC now?

If Joe was on the OKC team with his current salary, Westbrook would probably not be there on a max deal, which changes the dynamic of the team. Perk also at that salary, might have been amnestied. There is no sense in just substituting one player for another without looking at how it affects the rest of the team and salary structure.

[Guest Walter]

For everybody that believes this. In your mind have JJ trade places with Harden. What kind of team is OKC now?

Answer: Broke. 1) I would rather have Harden's averages over the next 2-3 years (much less 5) than JJ's over the next 2-3 (much less 5). 2) I'd rather have Harden's averages relative to contract in year one. 3) Harden is already more efficient (higher 2 and 3 pt. FG% than JJ has ever had in his career) and a better system fit (unless you run iso Joe). W

[Ruckus]

How much is Harden set to make?

[Guest Walter]

Ferry has an agenda... Get Capspace. However, he has no details after that.

Based upon the skill and efficacy with which Ferry achieved his "agenda" most of us, including the majority of those credible in the NBA that have weighed in on this, agree he is much more likely to parlay that "agenda" into a contender than the LT, 1st rd exit, aging star Hawks of yesteryear. Ferry has plenty of work to do and he could screw it up along the way (as building a title contender is nothing easy for an ATL franchise), but there is NOTHING to date to suggest that he won't give it a better effort than any Hawk GM in the past 30 years. He's hard-working, smart, decisive, creative, during his interview he shut the worst ownership I know of out of the process, and he traded away the worst contract in the NBA and got a 1st and immediately ending (unlike Riley's trade of Shaq) contracts for it all in the 1st month. You have to be a hater for hate's sake to find fault in that. You people got what you wanted for Christmas and a new pony and still you sulk! Just having ownership put in their place should have you loving this guy! Just the JJ trade should have you excited. Just the willingness to acquire assets like Korver or top 6th men like Lou would have gotten another Hawk GM great grades in any other year. Just trading MW for Harris is a winner! Together they are all smart, creative, clear-minded moves equal to about 3 off-season's worth of work for any other Hawk GM. Let the LT mediocrity whining ninnies continue. I'm done with this issue. These people would complain about a BJ. W

[MaceCase]

How much is Harden set to make?

Depending on where the cap falls next season, a maximum contract for him would either be 4 years ~60 million or a full Bird rights 5 years ~80.

[Ruckus]

Depending on where the cap falls next season, a maximum contract for him would either be 4 years ~60 million or a full Bird rights 5 years ~80.

Dang that's a lot. So we would have to get rid of Josh or Al if we were looking to add Harden plus another top FA, correct? Couldn't keep all 3 plus add someone it seems...

[MaceCase]

Dang that's a lot. So we would have to get rid of Josh or Al if we were looking to add Harden plus another top FA, correct? Couldn't keep all 3 plus add someone it seems...

Depends, a max for Josh would be higher than Harden's due to him having more years of service. If you can get Josh to take less (lower than his current salary) you could fit Harden plus another max 4 year vet because Harden's maximum salary on his first year of a new contract is 12.9* mil whereas Josh's would be 16.4 mil*. It's all entirely dependent on who the Hawks are targetting and how they intend to get them because it's not just the capspace, it's the capholds from Devin, Teague, Korver, Zaza, etc. that would have to be resolved.

[thecampster]

Depends, a max for Josh would be higher than Harden's due to him having more years of service. If you can get Josh to take less (lower than his current salary) you could fit Harden plus another max 4 year vet because Harden's maximum salary on his first year of a new contract is 12.9* mil whereas Josh's would be 16.4 mil*. It's all entirely dependent on who the Hawks are targetting and how they intend to get them because it's not just the capspace, it's the capholds from Devin, Teague, Korver, Zaza, etc. that would have to be resolved.

Yes and no. Much depends on where the Hawks are 30 games into the season. If it looks like they are shooting themselves into a top 4 seed, you might see either Teague or Harris paired with the Houston pick, future firsts, etc try and get someone else's cap issue at SF. For example, Chicago may throw away the season and decide to retool next year offering Deng. That type of a move would crimp out style quite a bit. I don't see next season so much about the cap holds as I see it about what happens in the next 4 months.

[MaceCase]

Yes and no. Much depends on where the Hawks are 30 games into the season. If it looks like they are shooting themselves into a top 4 seed, you might see either Teague or Harris paired with the Houston pick, future firsts, etc try and get someone else's cap issue at SF. For example, Chicago may throw away the season and decide to retool next year offering Deng. That type of a move would crimp out style quite a bit. I don't see next season so much about the cap holds as I see it about what happens in the next 4 months.

Well obviously, a hundred million different scenarios could present themselves over the year be they good or bad but for now that would be the factors behind free agency. I could think up a few hundred "what ifs" myself which is why I laugh whenever I see these gloom and doomers use their fantastically honed predicative skills to determine that Ferry has already exhausted the full extent of his plans when Dwight went to LA.

[AHF]

I don't see next season so much about the cap holds as I see it about what happens in the next 4 months.

The amount of cap space that we have depends very significantly on which cap holds we maintain and which of those players we renounce. That is why MaceCase is appropriately raising the issue when discussing the types of moves we could make and how that varies depending on what we do with Josh and what we do with the cap holds.