Ferry's plan is coming together

[JTB]

Number of NBA regular season Jazz games in the last 3 seasons: 230

Number of NBA games Jefferson has played in the last 3 seasons : 219

The injury label could be placed on him during his first 5 years in the league, but not now. He's played in 95% of the games in the past 3 years.

Bynum will probably end up doing something similar as he looks a lot healthier these days! NBA fans put the injury prone label to players way too soon. I understand bogut and Greg oden but when players like cp3 come into discussion that's just ridiculous!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Not getting the injury nonsense in regards to Jefferson, reminds a lot how the lemmings around here would jump to that criticism in regards to Okafor. He's only played oh, 219 of a possible 230 games over the past 3 seasons so I'd say he's proven that he can shake that injury criticism.

Now if you were to debate his defense (much improved over the last few seasons) or being a blackhole on offense (actually improved his assist rate above the Dwightdoza line) then you'd have an argument but the only legitimate reason to give criticism would be the fact that he's an offensively inefficient bigman with an abysmal free throw rate for a guy that handles the ball that much in the post. His near 50% shooting is the most deceiving stat ever because he's a guy who can still only give you 20 points on 20 shots....we just gave away a guy that did that and still have a guy named Josh Smith that will give you the same scoring rate (even with subpar FT shooting....or shooting in general) same rebounds, same blocks, greater passing and greater defense. Creating your own shot doesn't amount to a hill of beans if still takes you 10 tries to get 10 points.

Well if that's the case, we might as well keep Zaza at center. I mean, his Total Shot ( or True Shooting % ) is higher than Jefferson's, due to Al's inability to draw fouls ( or initiate contact ). S there's no need to add a guy like Jefferson, who you could possibly throw the ball down to in the post, and let him create a shot to win a game . . since shot creation doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Also, the video you used is discredited in my book. It's against the Pistons... You know how terrible they were last year? A 33 point game is a 33 point game, but that was probably the only memorable game of his last year. Just saying.

Kobe Bryant scored 81 points against a bad Raptors team. Is that discredited as well? But if you want a better game from Jefferson, do a "mediocre" Mavs team count a little more? http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9sxWlA8kmI Take note at who took over at the end of that triple OT game to finally win it for the Jazz. All I know, is that I would even concede Josh Smith moving to SF, if we could assemble a Jefferson - Horford - Smith frontline. That is better than the current Jefferson - Milsap - Favors frontline Utah has right now.

[wolvetigers]

If your the Hawks you have to Get a legit Center (Jefferson) just to see the potential of moving Horford to the PF and YES allowing Josh to play the SF position...And you are right I misspoke the Hawks would challenge the #2 seed (but #3 would be a lock) in the East with that lineup...No Team in the East would have a Front Court like the Hawks. All we would need is solid guard play and that is where Teague will have to take it to the next level.

Edited August 27, 2012 by wolvetigers

[JTB]

If your the Hawks you have to Get a legit Center (Jefferson) just to see the potential of moving Horford to the PF and YES allowing Josh to play the SF position...And you are right I misspoke the Hawks would challenge the #2 seed (but #3 would be a lock) in the East with that lineup...No Team in the East would have a Front Court like the Hawks. All we would need is solid guard play and that is where Teague will have to take it to the next level.

Exactly. People are missing the whole point in getting Jefferson. Getting him would make team rebs better, a low post scorer which is rare in the NBA, make horford and smith better, and he also has decent size at center. We don't want him to be our superstar we want him to be that all star center. He will be hands down the 2nd best center in the east or maybe 3rd or 4th depending on hibbert and lopez. Our front court would be a beast! We have a Memphis front court on the east with that lineup

[ATLscrubLove]

Al Jefferson isn't an all-star player. He is a good role player that can go out and have a couple really nice games a year. Now sure he could become an allstar in the east but to me he isn't that good. If all else fails then I'd consider bringing him in, but we should make one last push for Dwight before we do that. Not hating on the guy, I just don't see him as a good fit in Atl.

[MaceCase]

Well if that's the case, we might as well keep Zaza at center. I mean, his Total Shot ( or True Shooting % ) is higher than Jefferson's, due to Al's inability to draw fouls ( or initiate contact ). S there's no need to add a guy like Jefferson, who you could possibly throw the ball down to in the post, and let him create a shot to win a game . . since shot creation doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

This is such a poor argument in regards to TS% that it borders between moronic and childish. Zaza does not handle almost 25% of his team's offensive touches when he's on the floor. Surely his TS% and efficiency would drop if given a greater amount of touches but I'd reckon that he'd manage to come away with almost as many points as he had touches if the measuring stick is only league pedestrian efficiency. But requiring 20 shots to get you 20 points is not shot creation, though...... I don't care if you thought it was pretty the way he did it but at the end of the day if he's still only going to get you as many points as shots he puts up then you aren't winning much because there's this very silly idea that given that a point is worth twice as much as a shot that you should walk away with more points than shots. This is precisely why his offensive "prowess" over his career hasn't amounted to a hill of beans for his teams. JR Smith can "create" his own shot, Monta Ellis can "create" his own shot, should we pursue them also to pair with Jefferson at all cost? See, that way at the end of an inefficient chuck-fest of a game when the team needs a last minute bucket we can say "hey, go do that thing you didn't do too well for the first 3 quarters and win us this game" But hey! Let's look at a youtube! http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSQxnw50wAk Look! Josh can create his own shot and doesn't need 4 OTs against a good team to get 30! Hell, he even had more 30 point games last season than Jefferson. Also check out who's getting the ball in the post during the closing minutes to clinch the game. I guess I learned a very valuable lesson here today.

[DJlaysitup]

Yawn...Stretch...wake me when the games begin...

[Guest]

I have never been a fan of Jefferson's game before because it was all about offense with him and nothing else, However, since he has been in Utah he has a more rounded game and the effort on defense has been there. He has always been called upon to be the man and carry the offensive load. In Atlanta that will not be the case, he will be a piece of the puzzle, he will be our legitimate low post presence that will allow our shooters to get open looks, he will however have to be better at passing out of a double team which he is not very good at.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This is such a poor argument in regards to TS% that it borders between moronic and childish. Zaza does not handle almost 25% of his team's offensive touches when he's on the floor. Surely his TS% and efficiency would drop if given a greater amount of touches but I'd reckon that he'd manage to come away with almost as many points as he had touches if the measuring stick is only league pedestrian efficiency. But requiring 20 shots to get you 20 points is not shot creation, though...... I don't care if you thought it was pretty the way he did it but at the end of the day if he's still only going to get you as many points as shots he puts up then you aren't winning much because there's this very silly idea that given that a point is worth twice as much as a shot that you should walk away with more points than shots. This is precisely why his offensive "prowess" over his career hasn't amounted to a hill of beans for his teams. JR Smith can "create" his own shot, Monta Ellis can "create" his own shot, should we pursue them also to pair with Jefferson at all cost? See, that way at the end of an inefficient chuck-fest of a game when the team needs a last minute bucket we can say "hey, go do that thing you didn't do too well for the first 3 quarters and win us this game" But hey! Let's look at a youtube! http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSQxnw50wAk Look! Josh can create his own shot and doesn't need 4 OTs against a good team to get 30! Hell, he even had more 30 point games last season than Jefferson. Also check out who's getting the ball in the post during the closing minutes to clinch the game. I guess I learned a very valuable lesson here today.

You haven't learned anything if you think that 20 points on 20 shots is the exact same across the board. Jefferson can go 10 - 20 FG and not even go to the FT line .... and most important .... only use 20 to 22 possessions to score those 20 points. Meanwhile, a guy like JR Smith may go 7 - 20 FG, but make 3 threes and 3 FTs to score his 20 points. Of course, the problem with him is that it may take 25 - 27 possessions for him to score that 20. So while one guy ( Jefferson ) is getting right at 1 point per possession, even as a high usage, self shot Creator ...... the other guy ( Smith ) may only be averaging 0.75 points per possession. When a guy like Jefferson takes 50% of his shots via post ups, and can get right at 1 point per possession, that's top 20 in the league off of post ups. And that will help ANY offense. Nevermind though. 20 shots to get 20 points is the same across the board.

[AHawks89]

I would not mind a line up with:CP3/Teague/WilliamsHarden/Williams/Jenkins/stevensonSmoove/Korver/Morrow/stevensonHorford/Smoove/IvanJefferson/Horford/Zaza/Petro(If that's possible)Very very deep.

Edited August 27, 2012 by AHawks89

[MaceCase]

Except in reality he's not scoring at a point per possession......The whole point of mentioning that he isn't offensively efficient or very adept at creating offense...Where is it he's hitting 50% of his shots again? Sub 50% shooting the last 4 years. Hasn't touched .53% TS in 3 years. Has been assissted on over 50% of his baskets the past two years (58% in 10-11) so you can't say he's working hard to get all those points for himself. Terrible passer so he's not helping anyone else with that offense. Good defensive rebounder but terrible offensive rebounder for a guy primarily in the post so he's not creating extra possessions for your team. Fouled on less than 20% of his shot attempts so he's not even forcing the defense to react to his pressence but oh, do tell how he'll get you that bucket by "creating" offense in the 4th quarter.....but what else?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Except in reality he's not scoring at a point per possession......The whole point of mentioning that he isn't offensively efficient or very adept at creating offense...

Testing

Click on the image to make it larger, so you can read it.

Edited August 28, 2012 by northcyde

[MaceCase]

....but what else?

[Watchman]

Not getting the injury nonsense in regards to Jefferson, reminds a lot how the lemmings around here would jump to that criticism in regards to Okafor. He's only played oh, 219 of a possible 230 games over the past 3 seasons so I'd say he's proven that he can shake that injury criticism. Now if you were to debate his defense (much improved over the last few seasons) or being a blackhole on offense (actually improved his assist rate above the Dwightdoza line) then you'd have an argument but the only legitimate reason to give criticism would be the fact that he's an offensively inefficient bigman with an abysmal free throw rate for a guy that handles the ball that much in the post. His near 50% shooting is the most deceiving stat ever because he's a guy who can still only give you 20 points on 20 shots....we just gave away a guy that did that and still have a guy named Josh Smith that will give you the same scoring rate (even with subpar FT shooting....or shooting in general) same rebounds, same blocks, greater passing and greater defense. Creating your own shot doesn't amount to a hill of beans if still takes you 10 tries to get 10 points.

Career 7,538 FGA, 8,927 points. That works out to 23.69 points for every 20 FGA. I think you underestimated his efficiency.

[MaceCase]

Career 7,538 FGA, 8,927 points. That works out to 23.69 points for every 20 FGA. I think you underestimated his efficiency.

Yeaaaa......seeeee.......what you did heeeeeeereeee.....was that you used his entire career including the beginning when he actually was very efficient and mixed it with the latter years (of which why people are enticed by him) where he is mediocre. A good statistician recognizes trends not totals.

[Watchman]

Yeaaaa......seeeee.......what you did heeeeeeereeee.....was that you used his entire career including the beginning when he actually was very efficient and mixed it with the latter years (of which why people are enticed by him) where he is mediocre. A good statistician recognizes trends not totals.

Ok. A slight downward trend over the last four years, but still well above 20 pts per 20 attempts. 4 years ago: 23.71 3 years ago: 23.13 2 years ago: 23.17 1 year ago: 22.33 20 for 20 - you must have been confusing him for Jordan Crawford (oops I shouldn't say his name should I ?).

[AHF]

Al Jefferson scored fewer points per shot attempt last season than Josh Smith -- and Josh was terribly inefficient last year. Why are people thinking Jefferson is going to help our scoring efficiency?Patrick Millsap - 1061 points, 861 FGAAl Jefferson - 1170 points, 1048 FGAGive me Millsap's productivity over Jefferson's.

[MaceCase]

Ok. A slight downward trend over the last four years, but still well above 20 pts per 20 attempts. 4 years ago: 23.71 3 years ago: 23.13 2 years ago: 23.17 1 year ago: 22.33 20 for 20 - you must have been confusing him for Jordan Crawford (oops I shouldn't say his name should I ?).

And you want to make your argument off of an over-simplification of a term? Okay. Notice AHF's post. Notice that there is already a comprehensive statistic created to measure scoring efficiency better than your over-simplification also... Ah, I guess it's actually fair. I made an over-simplified statement based on a fact, you tried to over-simplify facts. Carry on.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Where is it he's hitting 50% of his shots again? Sub 50% shooting the last 4 years.

2009: ( 49.7% FG )

2010: ( 49.8% FG )

2011: ( 49.6% FG )

2012: ( 49.2% FG ) . . . . his career low, so I guess by Hawksquawk's standards, he's in decline. And I guess in those previous 3 years, we can't round up to the higher percentage, and in the last year, round down to the lower percentage.

Career 50% FG shooter . . . ummm, I mean . . . 50.2% shooter.

Hasn't touched .53% TS in 3 years.

Hasn't dropped below 52% TS EVER, despite having a low FT rate

Has been assissted on over 50% of his baskets the past two years (58% in 10-11) so you can't say he's working hard to get all those points for himself.

Part of "working hard" means getting in position to receive the ball. And since Jefferson shoots half of his shots via post ups, he is "working" to get that shot. Also, Dirk Nowitzki has had over 60% of his FG makes the past 3 years come via assists. Does that mean that Dirk can't create his own shot ( which was my original point about Jefferson )?

Terrible passer so he's not helping anyone else with that offense.

Terrible passer means that he turns the ball over a lot. Jefferson doesn't do that. He actually had a 2.2 ( oops, I can't round up . . . ) a 2.18 to 1 assist/turnover ratio last year. What Jefferson is . . is a "black hole" . . because he doesn't normally pass the ball if he can get a shot off in the post. That's not a bad thing if you can make right at or close to 50% of your shots.

Good defensive rebounder but terrible offensive rebounder for a guy primarily in the post so he's not creating extra possessions for your team.

True. Although he is the main option in the post, he doesn't work hard enough to grab offensive rebounds when he doesn't have the ball.

Al's career low 7.3 offensive rebound % last year is actually the career average of another PF that should be crashing the boards on offense, getting his team ( or himself ) extra possessions . . . instead of shooting up a lot of jumpers like he's a great shooter.

Fouled on less than 20% of his shot attempts so he's not even forcing the defense to react to his pressence but oh, do tell how he'll get you that bucket by "creating" offense in the 4th quarter

He was actually fouled on less than 8% of his regular season shot attempts last year ( that drops down to a little over 5% if you include regular season + playoffs ).

But it's not because he's not forcing the defense to react to his presence. The dude is taking 17 shots a game, with most of them coming 15 feet and in, so they have to react to him. Jefferson just has the knack to score the basketball at a pretty high rate, without drawing contact. A lot of jump hooks, short spot up jumpers, nifty post moves, and cuts to the basket are Jefferson's choice of shots on offense.

And once again, he's making at or around 50% of his shots without using a ton of extra possessions to score his points. Should he draw more fouls? Yes. But once again, he's producing points on half of the possessions he touches the ball.

.....but what else?

* 22.8 PER last year ( 2nd highest of his career ) . . . no Hawk has posted a 22.8 PER or higher since Dominique in the 1992 - 93 season

* .173 win score/48 last year . . . would've easily led the Hawks last year ( especially with the absence of Horford ), and may have been even higher

* 112 offensive rating . . . . would've led the Hawks last year

* Only 4 three pointers taken all year . . . because he knows where he needs to be shooting the ball to be most effective

* #8 in the league in NBA Efficiency

* #3 amongst centers in NBA Efficiency

* Has averaged more blocked shots than Josh Smith and Al Horford the past 2 years.

* Can actually defend bigger centers successfully in the post.

Are you done with this? Or are you going to act like this dude can't ball at a high level.

Or do you want Zaza to continue to play center for the Hawks, because he brings the "intangibles" like hustle and heart to his game . . and will grab offensive rebounds ( even if they're his own offensive rebounds when he misses lay-ups )?