Harden is Joe Johnson?!...Shhhhhhhiiiii

[AHF]

Through 15 games, it is looking like Harden is leading everywhere but PPG and the PPG is flipping back and forth right now. Not surprisingly, Harden is still scoring more per minute but his average minutes per game is less than Joe's 2006-07 season. We'll continue to watch and see where this comes out in a few more months.Updated through 11/29/12:James Harden At Present24.5 ppg / .574 ts% / 20.8 PER / .159 WS/48Joe Johnson Career Best Seasons

2006-07 (best numbers but low sample size with 56 games, 2nd fewest of his career)25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48

2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)

21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48

[macdaddy]

everytime i look at a nets box score Joe seems to have a horrible game. last night 8-21 shooting with 1-7 from 3 but logged a game high 42 minutes.

His overall number aren't bad but everything is down for him. shooting %, scoring, 3 pt%, FT %, Assists all down slightly but his minutes per game are actually more than the last two seasons with the Hawks. All of that is surprising to me.

The nets are much better than i expected and Stack is playing out of his mind. They don't seem to have much depth though which may be the new nba.

[ag82]

I've seen quite a few good box scores from Joe already this year and it is definitely interesting how their numbers seem to be so similar. (Joe's best season and Harden's current season)Harden's PER is down to 19.7 now and his ws/48 is lower than joe's high.Looks like Joe is a slightly better defender while Harden is a slightly better scorer, kind of what we already knew.

[Guest]

I figured Joe's ppg, assists and rebounds would be lower since Deron has the ball more, know more ISO Joe, Hump and Lopez and Crash rebounding. I did however think his fg % would be better, I think he is shooting way too many 3's, I thought he would be posting up more....oh well.

Comparing Harden's 17 games to Joe's full season.....smh,what sense does that make.

Harden will be playing more mpg than he has ever had, with defenses focused on him and having scouted him. Let's check the number midway thru the season and better yet at the end of the season.

[AHF]

Updated through 12/08/12:James Harden At Present24.7 ppg / .579 ts% / 20.8 PER / .154 WS/48Joe Johnson Career Best Seasons

2006-07 (best numbers - 2nd fewest games of his career)25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48

2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)

21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48

[benhillboy]

I don't understand the comparisons. I think Coach K and Colangelo have the resources and knowledge to know that Harden should've been on the Olympic Team while I'm sure they never even considered Joe. How does a 6-time All-Star guard at the point of his career where his mental and physical tools should intersect at an apex not even challenge for a spot over a young upstart with just a Sixth Man award? Shouldn't be hard to figure out. One is actually a great player. The other owes all he's ever accomplished to heavy minutes and great size, nothing else. The fans and media in Brooklyn are having a field day with the guy already.

Edited December 10, 2012 by benhillboy

[Sothron]

James Harden shot 45 percent on isolation shots last season on approximately two attempts per game, which ranked him among the NBA's ten best iso scorers.

As the focal point of the Rockets' offense this season, however, Harden is shooting 25 percent on roughly four shots per game.

Ouch. Harden = fraud as I predicted. He can't hide behind two actual stars any more.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Sothron

[AHF]

Harden is such a fraud compared to Westbrook as a scorer. See how effective Westbrook is when he doesn't have the defense focused on him and how effective Harden is with the defense focused on him?

* Westbrook 21.5 ppg on .516 TS%.

* Harden 24.7 ppg on .579 TS%.

I'll take fewer points and worse shooting over more points and better shooting any day!

/sarcasm

I'm not sure that people's expectations are set correctly when they conclude that someone with a superior offensive season to Joe's career best offensive seasons is demonstrating he is a fraud. Anyone led to believe Harden = Lebron or Durant should feel he is a fraud. Putting up roughly 25 ppg on .580 TS% is pretty much living up to expectations for what most people would have guessed.

Afterall, put this in context.

Harden 2012-13 (to date):

24.7 ppg on .579 ts%

Kobe Bryant Career Average

25.5 ppg on .555 ts%

(Kobe's career high ts% for a completed season: .580 ts%)

Edited December 11, 2012 by AHF

[Sothron]

You can't argue around someone taking literally double the isolation shots when they were a sixth man versus being THE man and watching their shooting percentage plummet like a rock down a mine shaft from 45% to 25%. That specifically points to the fact Harden lived off other players in OKC and when he's forced to be THE man his shooting drops down to frightening numbers.

[AHF]

You can't argue around someone taking literally double the isolation shots when they were a sixth man versus being THE man and watching their shooting percentage plummet like a rock down a mine shaft from 45% to 25%. That specifically points to the fact Harden lived off other players in OKC and when he's forced to be THE man his shooting drops down to frightening numbers.

I can argue that his scoring is way superior to Westbrook's, is superior to Joe Johnson's career best, and is pretty similar to Kobe Bryant's career norm. So I'd say you are taking a small subset of his offense and blowing it out of proportion. Harden was great when on the floor for OKC last year without Westbrook or Durant which is a time period in which it is literally impossible to live off of teammates who are on the bench.

[Sothron]

I can argue that his scoring is way superior to Westbrook's, is superior to Joe Johnson's career best, and is pretty similar to Kobe Bryant's career norm. So I'd say you are taking a small subset of his offense and blowing it out of proportion. Harden was great when on the floor for OKC last year without Westbrook or Durant which is a time period in which it is literally impossible to live off of teammates who are on the bench.

I have to point out that I was not the one to bring a comparison to Joe or now Westbrook that you are bringing up. My specific point was that he was not a max contract player and his play would prove me correct. Shooting 25% on every isolation shot he's taken so far is proving that in spades.

[AHF]

I have to point out that I was not the one to bring a comparison to Joe or now Westbrook that you are bringing up. My specific point was that he was not a max contract player and his play would prove me correct. Shooting 25% on every isolation shot he's taken so far is proving that in spades.

You specifically compared him to Westbrook - saying that he hid behind the two stars on offense to get his points when Westbrook is actually the lesser offensive player by any and every measure as far as who the defense needs to stop. Note to mention you keep ignoring the fact that Harden was better with Westbrook off the floor than with him on the floor. It is irrational to claim that he hid behind Westbrook when his best numbers came with Westbrook off the floor.

As for Joe, this whole thread was about comparing Harden to Joe.

As for a max player, being the 2nd best SG in the NBA is a reasonable case for it.

Updated through 12/12/12:

James Harden At Present

25.0 ppg / .583 ts% / 21.0 PER / .150 WS/48 - #5 in the NBA in ppg overall, #2 shooting guard in NBA

Joe Johnson Career Best Seasons

2006-07 (best numbers - 2nd fewest games of his career)

25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48

2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)

21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48

Kobe Bryant's Career Average Season

25.5 ppg on .555 ts%

(I'm not bothering putting in the 'total game' metrics since I'm not claiming Harden is a first ballot HOFer like Kobe - just comparing the scoring)

Edited December 18, 2012 by AHF

[Sothron]

You specifically compared him to Westbrook - saying that he hid behind the two stars on offense to get his points when Westbrook is actually the lesser offensive player by any and every measure as far as who the defense needs to stop. Note to mention you keep ignoring the fact that Harden was better with Westbrook off the floor than with him on the floor. It is irrational to claim that he hid behind Westbrook when his best numbers came with Westbrook off the floor.

As for Joe, this whole thread was about comparing Harden to Joe.

As for a max player, being the 2nd best SG in the NBA is a reasonable case for it.

Updated through 12/12/12:

James Harden At Present

25.0 ppg / .583 ts% / 21.0 PER / .150 WS/48 - #5 in the NBA in ppg overall, #2 shooting guard in NBA

Joe Johnson Career Best Seasons

2006-07 (best numbers - 2nd fewest games of his career)

25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48

2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)

21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48

Kobe Bryant's Career Average Season

25.5 ppg on .555 ts%

(I'm not bothering putting in the 'total game' metrics since I'm not claiming Harden is a first ballot HOFer like Kobe - just comparing the scoring)

I am not ignoring anything. Harden playing off the bench against other teams reserve players doesn't do him any credit. 25% shooting on isolation shots when he's starting? Now that tells me something.

[AHF]

Updated through 12/16/12:

James Harden At Present
25.1 ppg / .582 ts% / 21.5 PER / .168 WS/48 - #5 in the NBA in ppg overall, #2 shooting guard in NBA

Joe Johnson Career Best Seasons

2006-07 (best numbers - 2nd fewest games of his career)
25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48

2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)

21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48

Kobe Bryant's Career Average Season

25.5 ppg on .555 ts%

Harden's Current season

25.1 ppg on .582 ts%

(I'm not bothering putting in the 'total game' metrics since I'm not claiming Harden is a first ballot HOFer like Kobe - just comparing the scoring and scoring efficiency)

Edited December 18, 2012 by AHF

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . I see this is going to be one of the more interesting threads in this section of the forum this season. May as well add what Harden did to the Grizzlies last Saturday night. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kox2Z62ukPg Keep in mind that the Grizzlies locked this dude up back in November. But like I said back then, as the league adjusts to him, he'll start adjusting to the league. Dude is just versatile as hell as a scorer.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

As for Harden in ISO situations, he's shooting a pitiful 25.8% FG. But because he draws a shooting foul 16.9% of the time, he's actually scoring on 38.8% of his ISO plays.When you're a bad shooter, you better get to the line.And just for the record, Harden is #2 in the league in Points Per Play as the Pick and Roll ball handler.1.11 ppp52.7% FG40.6% 3FGscores on 49.7% of his PnR playsdraws a foul on 15.2% of these playsturns the ball over a lot in the PnR though . . 18.7%

[AHF]

Updated through 12/28/12:

James Harden At Present
26.1 ppg / .603 ts% / 23.5 PER / .208 WS/48 - #4 in the NBA in ppg overall, #2 shooting guard in NBA

Joe Johnson Career Best Seasons

2006-07 (best numbers - 2nd fewest games of his career)
25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48

2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)

21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48

Kobe Bryant's Career Average Season

25.5 ppg on .555 ts%

Harden's Current season

26.1 ppg on .603 ts%

(I'm not bothering putting in the 'total game' metrics since I'm not claiming Harden is a first ballot HOFer like Kobe - just comparing the scoring and scoring efficiency)

[AHF]

Updated through 1/2/13:

James Harden At Present
26.3 ppg / .603 ts% / 23.4 PER / .206 WS/48 - #4 in the NBA in ppg overall, #2 shooting guard in NBA

Joe Johnson Career Best Seasons

2006-07 (best numbers - 2nd fewest games of his career)
25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48

2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)

21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48

Kobe Bryant's Career Average Season

25.5 ppg on .555 ts%

Harden's Current season

26.3 ppg on .603 ts%

(I'm not bothering putting in the 'total game' metrics since I'm not claiming Harden is a first ballot HOFer like Kobe - just comparing the scoring and scoring efficiency)

[AHF]

Updated through 1/12/13: James Harden At Present26.5 ppg / .605 ts% / 23.3 PER / .203 WS/48 - #3 in the NBA in points, #4 in the NBA in ppg, #2 shooting guardJoe Johnson Career Best Seasons2006-07 (best numbers - 2nd fewest games of his career)25.0 ppg / .558 ts% / 19.5 PER / .105 WS/48 2009-10 (best season with 70+ games)21.3 ppg / .538 ts% / 19.3 PER / .140 WS/48 Kobe Bryant's Career Average Season25.5 ppg on .555 ts% Harden's Current season26.5 ppg on .605 ts% (I'm not bothering putting in the 'total game' metrics since I'm not claiming Harden is a first ballot HOFer like Kobe - just comparing the scoring and scoring efficiency)Harden continues to crush it, but still plenty of season left.

[Admin]

Hmm where ya at Sothron? Harden continues to look like a max player to me!