cutting off your nose to spite your face

[thecampster]

Why Kyle Korver is seeing more minutes that John Jenkins or Anthony Morrow and why Anthony Tolliver is seeing lots of time while Ivan Johnson and Mike Scott are ignored has been driving me crazy.....until tonight that is.Here me out.There is no reason to believe that Korver's defense is greater than Morrow's nor that either player is better offensively than what Jenkins gives you (shoots like the other two and can put it on the floor and draw fouls going to the basket).There is no reason to believe Anthony Tolliver is better than Ivan Johnson based on nothing more than energy and rebounding (something we sorely need) and Mike Scott showed himself well in the preseason. That leaves only one possibility in my mind. With 14 players on the roster and Korver/Petro/Zaza/Harris all being attractive to acquire in trade as expirings and with the Hawks having money under the LT. They are being showcased and the rookies hidden, pure and simple. I expect Korver gone by the 1st of the year along with one of our useful players and a pick. I have ideas who but for now we'll play wait and see.

[Eddielives]

Why Kyle Korver is seeing more minutes that John Jenkins or Anthony Morrow and why Anthony Tolliver is seeing lots of time while Ivan Johnson and Mike Scott are ignored has been driving me crazy.....until tonight that is. Here me out. There is no reason to believe that Korver's defense is greater than Morrow's nor that either player is better offensively than what Jenkins gives you (shoots like the other two and can put it on the floor and draw fouls going to the basket). There is no reason to believe Anthony Tolliver is better than Ivan Johnson based on nothing more than energy and rebounding (something we sorely need) and Mike Scott showed himself well in the preseason. That leaves only one possibility in my mind. With 14 players on the roster and Korver/Petro/Zaza/Harris all being attractive to acquire in trade as expirings and with the Hawks having money under the LT. They are being showcased and the rookies hidden, pure and simple. I expect Korver gone by the 1st of the year along with one of our useful players and a pick. I have ideas who but for now we'll play wait and see.

I actually really like Korver. He's pretty mediocre defensively but man that guy is fun to watch shoot. I think he has shown tremendous value already this year even though it is obvious he can be streaky. Teams know what he can do and will always respect that. If he is part of a package to get us a big defensive post player or even a better small forward(like Batum) I would be fine with trading him though.

[Jody23]

While I think Morrow definitely should be playing more, I'm starting to somewhat understand why Korver is getting extended minutes. Of all the shooters, Korver is by far the fastest coming off of screens and getting a shot. In fact, it seems he and Teague are developing good chemistry in transition play as Teague is often looking for him on the break.

[DrReality]

Don't think Za will be dealt unless we get a notable big inReturn

[MaceCase]

I don't know. According to 82games Korver has been a part of our best offensive and defensive units by a pretty wide margin. The lineup of Jeffrey, Deshawn, Kyle, Joshua and Alfred have an ORTG of 127 and DRTG of 100 for a +27 differential, by far the highest net lineup. He's also a part of the second highest net lineup of +12 with Jeffrey, Kyle, Joshua, Alfred and Zaur so I really have to wonder why anyone is still questioning his value to the team so far.

He's a net positive when he's out there and I've already mentioned that by watching the games you'll see that any time he runs baseline screens, whoever is guarding the bigs cheats off them to deny an open jumper allowing the bigs easy layups. The stats back that up too because in this young season the team is scoring 57% on inside baskets (at rim+3-9ft) up from last year's 52% which would help explain our +9 PPG differential over the 2 years that SportsSouth keeps mentioning.

Kyle is just proven on a high level across multiple top playoff and defensive teams so I really don't understand the continuous conspiracy theories as to why he's getting burn over guys who aren't.

[AHF]

I agree with MaceCase. Korver is defensively superior to Morrow and earning his minutes.Now if you want to play conspiracy theory with Tolliver he is your man. There is no explanation for the minutes he is getting as far as I can tell.

[macdaddy]

Why Kyle Korver is seeing more minutes that John Jenkins or Anthony Morrow and why Anthony Tolliver is seeing lots of time while Ivan Johnson and Mike Scott are ignored has been driving me crazy.....until tonight that is. Here me out. There is no reason to believe that Korver's defense is greater than Morrow's nor that either player is better offensively than what Jenkins gives you (shoots like the other two and can put it on the floor and draw fouls going to the basket). There is no reason to believe Anthony Tolliver is better than Ivan Johnson based on nothing more than energy and rebounding (something we sorely need) and Mike Scott showed himself well in the preseason. That leaves only one possibility in my mind. With 14 players on the roster and Korver/Petro/Zaza/Harris all being attractive to acquire in trade as expirings and with the Hawks having money under the LT. They are being showcased and the rookies hidden, pure and simple. I expect Korver gone by the 1st of the year along with one of our useful players and a pick. I have ideas who but for now we'll play wait and see.

As others have pointed out Korver is better and bigger. In fact I think Korver and Lou Williams are guys that Ferry wants on the team beyond this year. Jenkins is just packed behind a bunch of other guys. As far as Tolliver, while i'm not a huge fan i don't see where Ivan is that much different. Ivan is more physical but doesn't have the range Tolliver has. Tolliver has been in the league for 7 years for a reason. I definitely agree that Teague/Deshawn/Kover/Josh/Al is our best lineup with Williams, Zaza, Ivan and Harris off the bench. Come trade deadline i expect to see Morrow and Harris dealt at a minimum.

[AHF]

As far as Tolliver, while i'm not a huge fan i don't see where Ivan is that much different. Ivan is more physical but doesn't have the range Tolliver has. Tolliver has been in the league for 7 years for a reason.

Tolliver has played 4 seasons in the NBA coming into this year. He is also much worse than Ivan by about any measure.

Tolliver // Ivan

Career PER:

11.8 // 14.3

2012-13 PER:

5.3 // 13.8

Career Win Shares/48:

0.080 // 0.112

2012-12 Win Shares/48:

-0.039 // 0.085

Career True Shooting %:

.531 // .558

2012-13 True Shooting %:

.414 // .663

Career Rebound %:

11.6 // 14.3

2012-13 Rebound %:

8.8 // 16.3

[MaceCase]

Yea, Tolly is a big question mark. The only guess I can hazzard is that Ivan hasn't made it out of LD's doghouse from last season and he feels that Scott isn't ready. I originally thought that Tolly was brought in to allow better spaced bigger lineups with him and Josh alternating as 3/4s and although LD experimented with it in the preseason he hasn't used any lineup much that doesn't feature Tolly at PF alongside a guard at SF.

[ATLSmith]

Yea, interesting hypothesis. They may very well be part of a showcase but I feel that they are certainly playing on merit or because they match-up well against the opposition.Korver has been impressive and Tolliver has been playing well. While Tolliver is slow as dirt, he has a sweet jumper and does a great job spreading the floor. I'm always surprised how often he's left unguarded and makes a clutch jump shot.Our starting 5 seems to change on a nightly basis based on match-ups, so I feel this has a lot to do with who plays regular minutes as well. LD may not have "best in class" to choose from at all positions, but this roster does offer flexibility.

[coachx]

While I think Morrow definitely should be playing more, I'm starting to somewhat understand why Korver is getting extended minutes. Of all the shooters, Korver is by far the fastest coming off of screens and getting a shot. In fact, it seems he and Teague are developing good chemistry in transition play as Teague is often looking for him on the break.

Korver has the ability to play SG and SF. When we have 2 small guards out on the floor its hard to play Morrow or Jenkins at SF.......especially with an undersized PF and C. Its hard to play while being undersized at all 5 positions. I think Korver's size lets him play and fit in with more lineups. With the hustle Korver is showing on defense I think he has earned his minutes. Don't get me wrong. I like Morrow a lot at SG and want to Jenkins get a chance to develop. However, with L Williams, Teague, and Harris getting major minutes at Guard its just not to our advantage to play a 6'5'' 190 lb player out there at SF ( Morrow).......along with a small PF and C. Edited November 14, 2012 by coachx

[coachx]

Yea, interesting hypothesis.

Having flash backs to Dinasour Train. Anyone with kids probably gets this. Those without just move along.

[Jody23]

Korver has the ability to play SG and SF. When we have 2 small guards out on the floor its hard to play Morrow or Jenkins at SF.......especially with an undersized PF and C. Its hard to play while being undersized at all 5 positions. I think Korver's size lets him play and fit in with more lineups. With the hustle Korver is showing on defense I think he has earned his minutes. Don't get me wrong. I like Morrow a lot at SG and want to Jenkins get a chance to develop. However, with L Williams, Teague, and Harris getting major minutes at Guard its just not to our advantage to play a 6'5'' 190 lb player out there at SF ( Morrow).......along with a small PF and C.

Agree that the size issues across the board make it difficult to play everyone. I do think some of that quite possibly will be alleviated with a before deadline trade. Some of the guys who are not getting as much time as they should will get attention from other teams.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Showcasing Tolliver? To whom? The Bakersfield Jam ( our D-League affiliate )?Maybe Tolliver is an All-NBA practice player. But during the game, it's OBVIOUS who the better talented player is. And what good is Tolliver's "range", if he shoots Josh Smith like from 3 point range ( 23% ).Having said that, campster has the only feesible explanation as to why Tolliver plays over Ivan, other than the fact that Drew simply does not like or trust Ivan.As for Korver, he's not the issue. The issue is why isn't Jenkins ( a SG with size ) not getting any playing time? I would bet money that he's a better all around player than both Stevenson ( who is playing well ) and Morrow. Jenkins is the potential future, not those other two dudes.

Edited November 14, 2012 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Showcasing Tolliver? To whom? The Bakersfield Jam ( our D-League affiliate )?

Maybe Tolliver is an All-NBA practice player. But during the game, it's OBVIOUS who the better talented player is. And what good is Tolliver's "range", if he shoots Josh Smith like from 3 point range ( 23% ).

Having said that, campster has the only feesible explanation as to why Tolliver plays over Ivan, other than the fact that Drew simply does not like or trust Ivan.

As for Korver, he's not the issue. The issue is why isn't Jenkins ( a SG with size ) not getting any playing time? I would bet money that he's a better all around player than both Stevenson ( who is playing well ) and Morrow. Jenkins is the potential future, not those other two dudes.

"Size" in the fact that he's not a PG masquerading as a SG.

[Plainview1981]

Unless we get something big in return, I don't see the positives in trading ZaZa... Sometimes he tries to do too much with the on the offensive end, therefore stepping out of his element. But he proved his value in the playoffs 2008 playoffs, and again last season.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Hotlanta1981

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

ooorrr... Drew is giving the rooks the typical rookie treatment and having them sit and learn... We have a logjam at SG, it doesn't make since to give Jenk who is the 4th SG on the roster behind Korver, Williams, and Morrow (guys who have proven themselves in the NBA) minutes. It's not a matter of talent, it's just the fact that Jenk and Scott are rooks. There isn't a single guy that was picked 16-30 in the draft that is getting minutes in the league. Now with Tolliver, he is Larry's type of guy. He is a player that is flexible and can play SF and PF. He gets rebounds. He may not be consistent, but he can work inside or shoot the long ball. That's why he gets minutes over Ivan because Ivan can't hit a 16 footer. Ivan is just a hustle player that plays with grit and gets rebounds. He isn't an offensive threat.Zaza also isn't going anywhere. He is a great value player for DF and LD and a 7 footer. He hustles, gets rebounds, and knows how to get under player's skin. Also, he is a crowd favorite.

[AHF]

Tolliver has been playing well. While Tolliver is slow as dirt, he has a sweet jumper and does a great job spreading the floor. I'm always surprised how often he's left unguarded and makes a clutch jump shot.

Considering he is shooting 23% from 3pt range, I am surprised when he makes anything. I am not remotely surprised he is left unguarded when there are 3 superior perimeter shooters out on the floor with him at all times. The guy doesn't make 1/3 of his 3's (despite many being unguarded) for his career and isn't making 1/4 of them this season. He stinks on the boards - the only playing rebounding similarly to him is Kyle Korver (every big is much better on the boards). Tolliver is a waste of space right now - particularly if you take ATLSmith's statement as correct because it means that he isn't even spacing the floor when people leave him open to clank another shot.

[coachx]

As for Korver, he's not the issue. The issue is why isn't Jenkins ( a SG with size ) not getting any playing time? I would bet money that he's a better all around player than both Stevenson ( who is playing well ) and Morrow. Jenkins is the potential future, not those other two dudes.

First let me say I agree that Jenkins is the potential future. Key word potential. Drew is trying to win games right now......not develop potential talent for the future. That is what happens when you have a head coach on an expiring contract. Right now Stevenson is still a top 10 wing defender in this league. He is still a good role player. Ferry was a good role player and comes his front office expierence comes from organizations that believed in role players. The picture will clear up as the season goes along. If we fall out of he playoffs we can expect to see plenty of Jenkins. There is also the potential of a trade to clear up some of the duplicating parts. Edited November 14, 2012 by coachx

[Cwell]

First let me say I agree that Jenkins is the potential future. Key word potential.

Drew is trying to win games right now......not develop potential talent for the future. That is what happens when you have a head coach on an expiring contract.

Right now Stevenson is still a top 10 wing defender in this league. He is still a good role player. Ferry was a good role player and comes his front office expierence comes from organizations that believed in role players.

The picture will clear up as the season goes along. If we fall out of he playoffs we can expect to see plenty of Jenkins. There is also the potential of a trade to clear up some of the duplicating parts.

im so sick of reading this BS excuse year after year