Hawks - Bobcats

[macdaddy]

Deshawn Stevenson 1-5 from the field 1-4 from 3 0 steals 0 assist -9 +/- 3 points. He did have 1 block and 4 rebounds but I still need someone to explain what Drew sees in this guy to play him over Zaza and Ivan Johnson?

After Gordon torched us to get back in the game did you see Charlotte's possession with about a minute left where they could have tied or gone up (i can't remember). Deshawn came off the bench and denied Gordon even getting the ball for 24 seconds until finally they heaved a desperation three. That's why Deshawn plays. There is no stat for that but if you can keep the ball from even getting passed to a guy who was throwing in 3s with his eyes closed then you've done something. I'll see if i can find a video of it.

I'd add that with Korver, teague and deshawn all out of the game our perimeter defense was not good.

Edited November 29, 2012 by macdaddy

[macdaddy]

Check out the front of Yahoo NBA. Not only are we not a featured story for winning 6 in a row but not even mentioned in the 10 headlines:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/

[Peoriabird]

<p></p><blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="macdaddy" data-cid="588258" data-time="1354197635"><p> </p><p> </p><p>After Gordon torched us to get back in the game did you see Charlotte's possession with about a minute left where they could have tied or gone up (i can't remember). Deshawn came off the bench and denied Gordon even getting the ball for 24 seconds until finally they heaved a desperation three. That's why Deshawn plays. There is no stat for that but if you can keep the ball from even getting passed to a guy who was throwing in 3s with his eyes closed then you've done something. I'll see if i can find a video of it. </p><p> </p><p>I'd add that with Korver, teague and deshawn all out of the game our perimeter defense was not good.</p></blockquote><p></p>As I remember, Gordon still hit the shot! And as bad as our perimeter defense was in your opinion, we were still ahead comfortably until Stevenson came in. If he helped us so much; why was he only 1 of 2 players with a negative +/- If fact his +/- was by far the worst of any Hawk player so regardless of how great you think his defense was, we were losing ground with him on the court. Also there was not a noticeable increase in production amongst Bobcat wing players when he left the game. But there was certainly a noticeable increase in Hawk wing players offensively when he left the game

[macdaddy]

<p></p><blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="macdaddy" data-cid="588258" data-time="1354197635"><p> </p><p> </p><p>After Gordon torched us to get back in the game did you see Charlotte's possession with about a minute left where they could have tied or gone up (i can't remember). Deshawn came off the bench and denied Gordon even getting the ball for 24 seconds until finally they heaved a desperation three. That's why Deshawn plays. There is no stat for that but if you can keep the ball from even getting passed to a guy who was throwing in 3s with his eyes closed then you've done something. I'll see if i can find a video of it. </p><p> </p><p>I'd add that with Korver, teague and deshawn all out of the game our perimeter defense was not good.</p></blockquote><p></p>As I remember, Gordon still hit the shot! And as bad as our perimeter defense was in your opinion, we were still ahead comfortably until Stevenson came in. If he helped us so much; why was he only 1 of 2 players with a negative +/- If fact his +/- was by far the worst of any Hawk player so regardless of how great you think his defense was, we were losing ground with him on the court. Also there was not a noticeable increase in production amongst Bobcat wing players when he left the game. But there was certainly a noticeable increase in Hawk wing players offensively when he left the game

I did notice his +/-. I'm not saying he had a stellar game but his defense is noticeably better than our other guards. The play i'm talking about was not that Gordon heave and DS wasn't guarding him on that play. My memory isn't that great but there was another critical play where he was guarding Gordon one on one and totally denied him the ball.

We have one of the best defenses in the league so far. Its a team effort but i don't think you can discount his contribution.

[of course don't watch that last inbounds turnover lol. DS lost his guy on that (maybe it was a switch) and was standing under the basket looking for someone to guard. Thank god they flubbed the inbound.]

Edited November 29, 2012 by macdaddy

[Peoriabird]

<p></p><blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="macdaddy" data-cid="588268" data-time="1354205014"><p> </p><p>I did notice his +/-. I'm not saying he had a stellar game but his defense is noticeably better than our other guards. The play i'm talking about was not that Gordon heave and DS wasn't guarding him on that play. My memory isn't that great but there was another critical play where he was guarding Gordon one on one and totally denied him the ball.</p><p> </p><p>We have one of the best defenses in the league so far. Its a team effort but i don't think you can discount his contribution. </p><p> </p><p>[of course don't watch that last inbounds turnover lol. DS lost his guy on that (maybe it was a switch) and was standing under the basket looking for someone to guard. Thank god they flubbed the inbound.]</p></blockquote><p></p> Can't figure why you are ignoring the facts and the facts are that the Hawks performed better with everyone else on the court end of story! And the facts indicate that Josh Smith is much more effective small forward than Stevenson both offensively and defensively and should start there over him. Stevenson gives you nothing offensively and is not the lock down defender you think he is.

[macdaddy]

<p></p><blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="macdaddy" data-cid="588268" data-time="1354205014"><p> </p><p>I did notice his +/-. I'm not saying he had a stellar game but his defense is noticeably better than our other guards. The play i'm talking about was not that Gordon heave and DS wasn't guarding him on that play. My memory isn't that great but there was another critical play where he was guarding Gordon one on one and totally denied him the ball.</p><p> </p><p>We have one of the best defenses in the league so far. Its a team effort but i don't think you can discount his contribution. </p><p> </p><p>[of course don't watch that last inbounds turnover lol. DS lost his guy on that (maybe it was a switch) and was standing under the basket looking for someone to guard. Thank god they flubbed the inbound.]</p></blockquote><p></p>Can't figure why you are ignoring the facts and the facts are that the Hawks performed better with everyone else on the court end of story! And the facts indicate that Josh Smith is much more effective small forward than Stevenson both offensively and defensively and should start there over him. Stevenson gives you nothing offensively and is not the lock down defender you think he is.

What facts are you talking about? I understand the fact that you don't like Deshawn. I was just trying to point out that its not because LD is insane that he plays him. I never said DS was a lock down defender. Are you asserting that Lou Williams and Devin Harris are better defenders? Because I disagree with that. Not to mention that Deshawn is shooting better from 3 than both of those guys. So don't ignore that fact that Deshawn is our best 3 point shooting 2 guard right now.

The original question was why is he playing and I stick by the answer that he is a much better defender than our other 2 guards. You can point to one game's +/- and disagree with that but that doesn't make it a fact that he shouldn't be playing.

[Admin]

What facts are you talking about? I understand the fact that you don't like Deshawn. I was just trying to point out that its not because LD is insane that he plays him. I never said DS was a lock down defender. Are you asserting that Lou Williams and Devin Harris are better defenders? Because I disagree with that. Not to mention that Deshawn is shooting better from 3 than both of those guys. So don't ignore that fact that Deshawn is our best 3 point shooting 2 guard right now.

The original question was why is he playing and I stick by the answer that he is a much better defender than our other 2 guards. You can point to one game's +/- and disagree with that but that doesn't make it a fact that he shouldn't be playing.

I completely agree regarding Deshawn and he's far from the reason why the Bobcats scored there at the end. When he entered the game it was essentially 90-84 Hawks with Ben Gordon hitting 3 FT's to make it 90-84. Next Bobcats possession Session drives in and gets an easy layup after a Jeff Teague turnover, which was certainly not the fault of Deshawn. That makes it 90-86. Next possession we pass to Josh for a 26 ft 3 pointer that he misses badly, again not the fault of Deshawn as the shot clock wasn't even winding down. Gotta blame on the PG for passing Josh the ball there. Next possession Ben Gordon misses with Deshawn guarding him but Biyombo gets the offensive rebound and gets fouled, making both FTs and making it 90-88. Next Hawks possession Teague misses a shot but gets the rebound and Lou gets a layup out of the possession, making it 92-88. Next Bobcats possession ends with Biyombo taking a jumper and missing, which is a huge win for our defense forcing him to shoot a jumper. Next Hawks possession Lou has his layup blocked and Josh gets the offensive rebound and gets fouled, missing BOTH FTs, keeping the score at 92-88. Next Bobcats possession Gordon makes incredible 25 ft 3 pointer with 2 men on him and guarded extremely well, which Nique even makes mention of. That makes the score 92-91. That's the last the Bobcats score, with the Hawks hitting a pair of FTs by Horford to ice the game. So in the 2:43 seconds of a very close game that Stevenson was in there for guarding Gordon, Gordon got up 1 shot, a desperation 3 that he hit while shooting over double coverage. I'd call that pretty damn good defense on a guy who had already hit 3 more 3's that quarter with Morrow guarding him, plus 3 FTs.

[Peoriabird]

To completely ignore his 1-5 shooting and being a total none factor on offense is strange. And again, there was not a noticeable increase in scoring from the Bobcat's wings when he left in the 1st quarter. Also we made a come back in the 2nd quarter to get with in 2 and then built a lead in the 3rd and 4th quarter with him on the bench supports the notion that the Hawks as a team performed better when he was on the bench.

[Admin]

To completely ignore his 1-5 shooting and being a total none factor on offense is strange. And again, there was not a noticeable increase in scoring from the Bobcat's wings when he left in the 1st quarter. Also we made a come back in the 2nd quarter to get with in 2 and then built a lead in the 3rd and 4th quarter with him on the bench supports the notion that the Hawks as a team performed better when he was on the bench.

A notion, that's all you have here, not facts. The facts about the end of the game suggest that his defense was far more valuable than any offense he could have brought as the more offensively gifted Morrow was being used and abused by Gordon in the 4th and then Deshawn comes in and all Gordon could get was a desperation 3 that could not have been defended better.

[Peoriabird]

So do you think that Deshawn Stevenson should start for the Hawks?

[Admin]

So do you think that Deshawn Stevenson should start for the Hawks?

There are situations where I think that he should, yes. I'm not saying he should be in the teams long term plans, but for this year I would absolutely start him against teams with elite SG's and ask him to make it difficult for them to score. Any offense he gives would be gravy. There are lots of guys in the NBA who aren't good offensive players but start on their teams because of being a very good defender and while I wouldn't say that Deshawn is on the level of a Tony Allen, he's not far off either. And you bet I'd have Tony Allen starting for the Hawks if he were here.

[Peoriabird]

There are situations where I think that he should, yes. I'm not saying he should be in the teams long term plans, but for this year I would absolutely start him against teams with elite SG's and ask him to make it difficult for them to score. Any offense he gives would be gravy. There are lots of guys in the NBA who aren't good offensive players but start on their teams because of being a very good defender and while I wouldn't say that Deshawn is on the level of a Tony Allen, he's not far off either. And you bet I'd have Tony Allen starting for the Hawks if he were here.

He doesn't start at guard...Korver does. He was assigned to guard Kid-Gilchest who is a 6'7" Small forward. Anyway, my choice would be to control the boards and our best rebounding front line is Horford-Smith-Zaza. And Josh Smith has the best small forward defensive numbers on the team.

[Admin]

He doesn't start at guard...Korver does. He was assigned to guard Kid-Gilchest who is a 6'7" Small forward. Anyway, my choice would be to control the boards and our best rebounding front line is Horford-Smith-Zaza. And Josh Smith has the best small forward defensive numbers on the team.You said would I start him. I said yes sometimes, meaning when we go small and Zaza isn't starting. I would start Deshawn at SG and Korver at SF. If we go big with Josh at SF then Korver is the SG and Deshawn comes off the bench. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[MaceCase]

He doesn't start at guard...Korver does. He was assigned to guard Kid-Gilchest who is a 6'7" Small forward. Anyway, my choice would be to control the boards and our best rebounding front line is Horford-Smith-Zaza. And Josh Smith has the best small forward defensive numbers on the team.

If you want to follow the facts presented by 82games that Josh is the best SF defender then understand that you are also terribly contradicting yourself by mentioning Horford-Smith-Zaza being the best rebounding unit. The best rebounding units percentage-wise are:

Zaza

Ivan

Morrow

Louis

Teague

And the next 3 best rebounding units feature Morrow, Stevenson and Korver at SF so please, lay off the "facts". If you are going to argue that the facts tell you one thing then you better be able to accept that that same set of facts also tell you a dozen other things such as Teague-Deshawn-Korver-Smith-Horford is also by far the best +/- lineup for the Hawks. Like Dol said, you have a notion and you are trying to pick and choose and cut corners to justify it.

My opinion, wait for a much larger statistical sample size and just leave your musings as no more than your subjective thoughts. When North jumped the gun and stated that the facts show that Josh is deserving of an All NBA defensive selection already everyone hoorayed because it fit in with their preconceived notions. When I mentioned that the facts show that Korver is deserving of DPOY and an All NBA selection......I got nothing but crickets.

[Peoriabird]

Fine... we'll revisit this in a month.

[Admin]

Fine... we'll revisit this in a month.

That's kind of how I feel as well. It could very well be that our best lineup will be Zaza / Al / Josh / Korver / Teague but I need to see A LOT more of it to believe that. Josh certainly seems to be playing a lot better at SF this year than he has in the past, at least according to my eyeball test. If he can keep that up and be what we need at SF going forward then I would be ecstatic!

[Admin]

If you want to follow the facts presented by 82games that Josh is the best SF defender then understand that you are also terribly contradicting yourself by mentioning Horford-Smith-Zaza being the best rebounding unit. The best rebounding units percentage-wise are:

Zaza

Ivan

Morrow

Louis

Teague

And the next 3 best rebounding units feature Morrow, Stevenson and Korver at SF so please, lay off the "facts". If you are going to argue that the facts tell you one thing then you better be able to accept that that same set of facts also tell you a dozen other things such as Teague-Deshawn-Korver-Smith-Horford is also by far the best +/- lineup for the Hawks. Like Dol said, you have a notion and you are trying to pick and choose and cut corners to justify it.

My opinion, wait for a much larger statistical sample size and just leave your musings as no more than your subjective thoughts. When North jumped the gun and stated that the facts show that Josh is deserving of an All NBA defensive selection already everyone hoorayed because it fit in with their preconceived notions. When I mentioned that the facts show that Korver is deserving of DPOY and an All NBA selection......I got nothing but crickets.

I would also like to point out that at the time when we found out we were getting Korver I made several posts about how he's an underrated team defender and has a high defensive IQ and people scoffed at that saying he was a bad defender and slow and blah blah blah. Well what we've seen from him thus far this season shows that he is indeed a very underrated defender and hearing his teammates talk about how he's always talking and getting guys in the right position defensively kind of proves I was right about Korver and his defensive impact.

[lethalweapon3]

I would also like to point out that at the time when we found out we were getting Korver I made several posts about how he's an underrated team defender and has a high defensive IQ and people scoffed at that saying he was a bad defender and slow and blah blah blah. Well what we've seen from him thus far this season shows that he is indeed a very underrated defender and hearing his teammates talk about how he's always talking and getting guys in the right position defensively kind of proves I was right about Korver and his defensive impact.

I'm one of those guys! By "high defensive IQ" in Korver's case, I always assumed that means he KNOWS when he's getting torched! :) We considered it "low skill, high awareness" during his Sixers stint years ago.

But while he still has his occasional lapses (like most of the players on the team), the important thing is he's communicating out there on the floor, which makes things easier for him and everybody else. I've been very impressed and coming around on him defensively. Most Hawks are doing their best with their assignments AND doing the best they can to help each other during, and after, an opponent's possession. And it's showing up in the defensive efficiency numbers.

Stats are just one small bit of it, but Kyle's steals rate so far is like nothing I've seen from him in his entire career. Plus he's helping out with the defensive rebounding. He's not just biding his time on defense and then running to the other end to park himself at the 3-point line.

There was one particular blown defensive assignment (I think it was Kemba getting free for a runner) about a minute prior to an LD timeout early in the game last night as the Bobcats started clawing back. But what I recall after the basket was Kyle immediately and swiftly correcting somebody on where they were supposed to be on the floor. Other than Josh on occasion, I'm just not used to seeing that in real-time with this team.

~lw3

[Jody23]

That's kind of how I feel as well. It could very well be that our best lineup will be Zaza / Al / Josh / Korver / Teague but I need to see A LOT more of it to believe that. Josh certainly seems to be playing a lot better at SF this year than he has in the past, at least according to my eyeball test. If he can keep that up and be what we need at SF going forward then I would be ecstatic!

At some point, I think we all know we've got to improve our rebounding which most likely would come thru adding size. What would be interesting is if the Hawks were able to add a center that's as good or better than ZaZa while still maintaining Horf and Smith. I mean, I know it's a LONGSHOT, but say the Hawks added Dwight in free agency. Would the Hawks still be playing musical chairs with the starting lineup? For the record, I like ZaZa in the starting lineup because it makes it easier for Josh to take advantage of SFs in the post, many times drawing double teams which create scoring opportunities for others. With the small lineup, we don't have that advantage in the post at it appears we become more of a perimeter oriented, jump shooting team. Edited November 29, 2012 by Jody23

[Ruckus]

I completely agree regarding Deshawn and he's far from the reason why the Bobcats scored there at the end. When he entered the game it was essentially 90-84 Hawks with Ben Gordon hitting 3 FT's to make it 90-84. Next Bobcats possession Session drives in and gets an easy layup after a Jeff Teague turnover, which was certainly not the fault of Deshawn. That makes it 90-86. Next possession we pass to Josh for a 26 ft 3 pointer that he misses badly, again not the fault of Deshawn as the shot clock wasn't even winding down. Gotta blame on the PG for passing Josh the ball there. Next possession Ben Gordon misses with Deshawn guarding him but Biyombo gets the offensive rebound and gets fouled, making both FTs and making it 90-88. Next Hawks possession Teague misses a shot but gets the rebound and Lou gets a layup out of the possession, making it 92-88. Next Bobcats possession ends with Biyombo taking a jumper and missing, which is a huge win for our defense forcing him to shoot a jumper. Next Hawks possession Lou has his layup blocked and Josh gets the offensive rebound and gets fouled, missing BOTH FTs, keeping the score at 92-88. Next Bobcats possession Gordon makes incredible 25 ft 3 pointer with 2 men on him and guarded extremely well, which Nique even makes mention of. That makes the score 92-91. That's the last the Bobcats score, with the Hawks hitting a pair of FTs by Horford to ice the game. So in the 2:43 seconds of a very close game that Stevenson was in there for guarding Gordon, Gordon got up 1 shot, a desperation 3 that he hit while shooting over double coverage. I'd call that pretty damn good defense on a guy who had already hit 3 more 3's that quarter with Morrow guarding him, plus 3 FTs.

Good point. And the facts to back it up. No one can argue against the facts. Very nice!