Why can't Smoove learn from Horford?

[Peoriabird]

Josh is among the least efficient scorers in the game.

He is among the best defenders. It is a tale of two ends of the floor.

His overall game (WS/48, etc.) is not close to max level but is right at that cusp of potential All-Star. Some people here see him as a negative value overall, so I agree he is underrated by certain posters and fans.

I don't know anyone who thinks Player Efficiency is a good measure anymore, though. There is a reason Player Efficiency isn't used by the analytics experts or even reported on sites like NBA Reference. It is the equivalent of using PPG or batting average as a reference point in discussing player value. It makes PER look really good.

He is a stat stuffer for sure but the problem with this is that the stats are framed in a way to include him and exclude others. If you made the criteria an average of 9 rebounds per game, for example, then Josh falls off the map and his season isn't included. It is a false sense of rarity because all the criteria are framed right where he makes the cutoff. You can do this exercise for a lot of players.

Larry Sander is having the only season in NBA history with:

A block % of 9 or greater, defensive rebounding % of 25.4 or greater, an ORTG of 109 or greater, and usage and turnover rates less than 16% and 13%, respectively.

Do Josh's stats suggest he is having one of the greatest seasons in NBA history? No. Do Sanders'? No.

So to what end does this type of deliberately exclusive inquiry get you?

Awesome post!

[buckeye242424]

Everything you said is correct but the BOLD. As Steve Smith said the other day on the radio, Josh's stats sheet is the ONLY in NBA history with his averages.

But I will let you all go back to your endless debate of who is better/what Josh can be/what Josh is not... lol

I done with that crap. I'm just enjoying the team as a whole. Josh, Al, Jeff, Kyle, John, Ivan, Zaza... even my man Toliver. GO HAWKS!:vacation1:

Only one of 14 players to average what he is currently...

[buckeye242424]

It is a bad number. Flip it to efficiency per minute and Josh plummets to 69th. No one uses this statistic anymore.

I think you're underestimating the numbers presented... Look at the first 24, before Smoove. Player efficiency is a big statistic. Would you argue with the company he's with? Even in that small sample of top 25?

[Wretch]

I'm with buckeye here, we are talking about overall efficiency, not shooting efficiency. What dummy would argue that Josh is an efficient shooter?

Btw wretch I will give a proper response to your nice reply from earlier but I got next here at the gym and its time to rain some triples!

For.............the.........sweet..........love..............of.................biscuits...............and...........gravy.......

[Nobody at all] would argue that Josh is an efficient shooter...but Josh Smith takes the most shots on this team.

I can't repeat that in my head enough for it to make sense. How are you gonna win doing this? YES, Josh is a good all around player. But for the love of cheese, you have to come down and score the ball. You can't just...outhustle and outdefense the other team. You have to put the ball in the basket.

...and when you're trying to do that, especially at critical times, you don't let one of the most inefficient midrange shooters...take 40% of his shots from midrange...and let him lead your team in FGA's. He's not the reason for all of our losses, but damn man...dude is not helping with those wasted shots. He's anti-helping!

Lord...and you even have coaches telling you, they want him to shoot it! He's their 6th man! HOW....is this justifiable? How do you just look the other way? Oh! Nice rebound! Nice steal! Nice block!

Now shoot it Josh!

This is sheer unbridled madness we're talking about here!

[buckeye242424]

Josh is among the least efficient scorers in the game. He is among the best defenders. It is a tale of two ends of the floor. His overall game (WS/48, etc.) is not close to max level but is right at that cusp of potential All-Star. Some people here see him as a negative value overall, so I agree he is underrated by certain posters and fans. I don't know anyone who thinks Player Efficiency is a good measure anymore, though. There is a reason Player Efficiency isn't used by the analytics experts or even reported on sites like NBA Reference. It is the equivalent of using PPG or batting average as a reference point in discussing player value. It makes PER look really good. He is a stat stuffer for sure but the problem with this is that the stats are framed in a way to include him and exclude others. If you made the criteria an average of 9 rebounds per game, for example, then Josh falls off the map and his season isn't included. It is a false sense of rarity because all the criteria are framed right where he makes the cutoff. You can do this exercise for a lot of players. Larry Sander is having the only season in NBA history with: A block % of 9 or greater, defensive rebounding % of 25.4 or greater, an ORTG of 109 or greater, and usage and turnover rates less than 16% and 13%, respectively. Do Josh's stats suggest he is having one of the greatest seasons in NBA history? No. Do Sanders'? No. So to what end does this type of deliberately exclusive inquiry get you?

Not %'s. Straight up stats. Playing 48 minutes, or 20. What you produce. What HOF's get judged on. Smoove has one of the best stat lines of the top 15 stat lines ever right now. Bottom line.

[buckeye242424]

For.............the.........sweet..........love..............of.................biscuits...............and...........gravy....... [Nobody at all] would argue that Josh is an efficient shooter...but Josh Smith takes the most shots on this team. I can't repeat that in my head enough for it to make sense. How are you gonna win doing this? YES, Josh is a good all around player. But for the love of cheese, you have to come down and score the ball. You can't just...outhustle and outdefense the other team. You have to put the ball in the basket. ...and when you're trying to do that, especially at critical times, you don't let one of the most inefficient midrange shooters...take 40% of his shots from midrange...and let him lead your team in FGA's. He's not the reason for all of our losses, but damn man...dude is not helping with those wasted shots. He's anti-helping! Lord...and you even have coaches telling you, they want him to shoot it! He's their 6th man! HOW....is this justifiable? How do you just look the other way? Oh! Nice rebound! Nice steal! Nice block! Now shoot it Josh! This is sheer unbridled madness we're talking about here!

Sorry Wretch, his bad shots doesn't outweigh what he does everywhere else. And I'm talking the ones he misses. He takes a ton of bad shots he makes... Then we're in the chat room saying "noooooo.... Yes! Smoooove"" Not arguing that. Bad shots yes... Are we better without him? Not a chance.

[Wretch]

Sorry Wretch, his bad shots doesn't outweigh what he does everywhere else. And I'm talking the ones he misses. He takes a ton of bad shots he makes... Then we're in the chat room saying "noooooo.... Yes! Smoooove"" Not arguing that. Bad shots yes... Are we better without him? Not a chance.

Didn't say that part in bold. But it does have to be corrected. We are better off without him shooting the ball. You can't argue that.

We can argue all day whether or not his negatives outweigh his positives. That is debatable. But you do realize, that this is the guy that takes the most shots for us right? So, it's not really debatable whether or not his negatives equate to his positives. If he weren't shooting so much, you might have a case. As it were, he needs to put the ball down. Those shots are not helping and he's shooting a screeching monkeyload of them.

[Admin]

Didn't say that part in bold. But it does have to be corrected. We are better off without him shooting the ball. You can't argue that. We can argue all day whether or not his negatives outweigh his positives. That is debatable. But you do realize, that this is the guy that takes the most shots for us right? So, it's not really debatable whether or not his negatives equate to his positives. If he weren't shooting so much, you might have a case. As it were, he needs to put the ball down. Those shots are not helping and he's shooting a screeching monkeyload of them.

Josh would have to be the by far worst shooter on the team to even come close to outweigh being the best defender and one of the better rebounders along with arguably the best passer. So yeah it's not debatable, his positives far outweighs his negatives.Now having said that, would he and the Hawks be better if he never took a shot outside of the paint? Absofreakinglutely and nobody can argue against that. But the bottom line is we are a better team with Josh than we are without him.

[Admin]

It is a bad number. Flip it to efficiency per minute and Josh plummets to 69th. No one uses this statistic anymore.

I haven't claimed efficiency is a god number, was just showing that the stat backed up the claim that he was in the top 25% in efficiency.What do you consider to be the best single metric for judging a player? I have a feeling you'll say win shares or wins produced and that's fine if you feel that way but I am not buying those as legit metrics. Perhaps I'm slow to the party but I just don't trust them.

[AHF]

Not %'s. Straight up stats. Playing 48 minutes, or 20. What you produce. What HOF's get judged on. Smoove has one of the best stat lines of the top 15 stat lines ever right now. Bottom line.

You pick which 3 of these he beats because this is either one of the most ignorant or one of the most disingenuous posts I have ever seen (note that I am only going on the counting stats that you value and I am sporting you one by not using multiple lines from the same player):

Kareem 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 5.0 rpg, 4.1 bpg, 1.5 spg

MJ 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.8 bpg

Wilt 50.4 ppg, 24.7 rpg, 2.4 apg (unknown steals and blocks)

Oscar 30.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg (unknown steals and blocks)

Lebron 30.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 7.2 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.1 bpg

David 29.8 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.3 bpg, 1.7 spg

Shaq 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 0.5 spg

Paul 22.8 ppg, 11.0 apg, 5.5 rpg, 2.8 spg, 0.1 bpg

Duncan 23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.7 spg

Chuck 25.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 4.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.8 bpg

Dirk 26.1 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.2 spg

Karl 25.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.5 spg

Magic 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2.7 spg, 0.4 bpg

Bird 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg

Pettit 27.9 ppg, 20.3 rpg, 3.4 apg (unknown blocks and steals)

Durant 28.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.2 bpg

Wade 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, 2.2 spg, 1.3 bpg

Hakeem 24.3 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 4.6 bpg, 2.9 apg, 2.1 spg

[AHF]

I haven't claimed efficiency is a god number, was just showing that the stat backed up the claim that he was in the top 25% in efficiency.What do you consider to be the best single metric for judging a player? I have a feeling you'll say win shares or wins produced and that's fine if you feel that way but I am not buying those as legit metrics. Perhaps I'm slow to the party but I just don't trust them.

I am all fine with efficiency. It is the Player Efficiency statistic that I have a problem with.

How does any stat measuring efficiency differ radically based on efficiency per game or efficiency per minute? It doesn't even make sense.

Player Efficiency is a worse version of PER that happens to have the word "Efficiency" in its name. It doesn't measure efficiency.

[buckeye242424]

You pick which 3 of these he beats because this is either one of the most ignorant or one of the most disingenuous posts I have ever seen (note that I am only going on the counting stats that you value and I am sporting you one by not using multiple lines from the same player): Kareem 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 5.0 rpg, 4.1 bpg, 1.5 spgMJ 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.8 bpgWilt 50.4 ppg, 24.7 rpg, 2.4 apg (unknown steals and blocks)Oscar 30.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg (unknown steals and blocks)Lebron 30.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 7.2 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.1 bpgDavid 29.8 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.3 bpg, 1.7 spgShaq 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 0.5 spgPaul 22.8 ppg, 11.0 apg, 5.5 rpg, 2.8 spg, 0.1 bpgDuncan 23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.7 spgChuck 25.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 4.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.8 bpgDirk 26.1 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.2 spgKarl 25.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.5 spgMagic 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2.7 spg, 0.4 bpgBird 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpgPettit 27.9 ppg, 20.3 rpg, 3.4 apg (unknown blocks and steals)Durant 28.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.2 bpgWade 30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5.0 rpg, 2.2 spg, 1.3 bpgHakeem 24.3 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 4.6 bpg, 2.9 apg, 2.1 spg

You're missing my point. I'm not comparing him to HOF players... I'm saying he's putting up stats this year that players get judged to go into the hall. Collectively, across the board, of all stats you mentioned, he's in select company right now. He averages more steals than Lebron, more blocks than Durant, more boards than Wade. He contibutes at a high level everywher. Not points, but few have averaged at least 18, with everything else. He doesn't belong on the list with theses guys, I'm just sick of hearing how he's dumb, worthless, and his bad jumpers. He's really good,

[buckeye242424]

His stats, right now, 14 players in the NBA, history, have collectively done. Pts, boards, assists, blocks, steals... On average.

[JackB1]

How some don't understand or see what Wretch just said is beyond me.

Wretch "gets it". Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[Admin]

I am all fine with efficiency. It is the Player Efficiency statistic that I have a problem with.

How does any stat measuring efficiency differ radically based on efficiency per game or efficiency per minute? It doesn't even make sense.

Player Efficiency is a worse version of PER that happens to have the word "Efficiency" in its name. It doesn't measure efficiency.

Okay so when you say you're fine with efficiency, you're simply talking about shooting efficiency? You don't put stock in either Player Efficiency or PER, although you feel that PER is the better of the 2.

So now that we have that figured out, what do you consider to be the single best metric for measuring a players overall impact?

[Admin]

His stats, right now, 14 players in the NBA, history, have collectively done. Pts, boards, assists, blocks, steals... On average.

According to basketball-reference, Josh has less than a 0.009% chance at the hall of fame. According to their formula anything under a 0.5 is very unlikely to make the hall of fame. Where he's really taking a major hit is in 2 categories, All-Star game selections and NBA championships won. Unless he wins a championship or two and makes a couple of all-star games, you can forget about him in the hall.

[buckeye242424]

According to basketball-reference, Josh has less than a 0.009% chance at the hall of fame. According to their formula anything under a 0.5 is very unlikely to make the hall of fame. Where he's really taking a major hit is in 2 categories, All-Star game selections and NBA championships won. Unless he wins a championship or two and makes a couple of all-star games, you can forget about him in the hall.

I get that. He's no where near that kind of level. That's where I've been mistaken, I'm sorry.I just know when people look at stats (not rings, all-star appearances, etc) Smoove is having a year right now that isn't an easy accomplishment when you look at his whole game... Which stemmed from my first argument that we need to look at what he does all over the floor. If he finished the year right now, with these stats, that's why he'll get max money somewhere.

[AHawks89]

Any sources about Josh Smith the only person in the NBA to average _____ ?

I remember hearing it from TV, but can't find any sources.

[Jody23]

I get that. He's no where near that kind of level. That's where I've been mistaken, I'm sorry.I just know when people look at stats (not rings, all-star appearances, etc) Smoove is having a year right now that isn't an easy accomplishment when you look at his whole game... Which stemmed from my first argument that we need to look at what he does all over the floor. If he finished the year right now, with these stats, that's why he'll get max money somewhere.

He's not going to get max money unless it's from a team like Charlotte, Detroit or Milwaukee and he's not going to play in those places. He's a good player, but he's not that good.

[buckeye242424]

Do you think he would stay in Atlanta for not max money, if Milwaukee offers it to him?