Simmons: The Worst Contracts in the NBA(Or why DF is the man)

[Diesel]

Awe shucks, we're the spin masters? Could of fooled me with these hypothetical tomes told to you by your alternate dimension reading crystal ball.

Let's look at facts: the Hawks have continued to win at nearly the same rate while Joe Johnson is putting up his worst season in multiple categories. You already attempted the lame apologist argument that it's his usage to blame but why oh why would reducing a guy's offensive load have a negative effect on their efficiency, passing accuracy, rebounding and defensive effort? Thess things should increase in the wake of not having to burn so much energy to get a shot off and no longer being the emphasis of opposing coaches gameplans.

Why even make the argument of "we could of seen him here" when we can perfectly see him there with the exact roster and franchise you wanted him to have here and......he's sucking worse than with any supposedly cheaply filled and poorly drafted team he had Atlanta.

Why continue this fantasy that his contract has any positive value and that the Hawks were somehow impatient in dealing it? Do you not realize that given his current play with that perfect roster that he has lost even more value? If the Hawks had him now they would probably have to be throwing their own firsts and rookies along with other incentives just to get the same package from Brooklyn.

These are facts that would lead a logical person to conclude that Danny Ferry was fortuitous in moving both of the worst contracts in the league when he did and should thus be praised on that move alone rather than having to have any caveat attached to him about what he does from here to justify those moves. Look at a cot damn boxscore of Marvin and Joe for all you need to know but oh well, we're just bitter spin masters.

No Spin Needed...

Deron Williams choose to stay with the Nets because they went out and got Joe Johnson. Think about it. Billy King got Joe Johnson and lured Williams away from his hometown Mavericks and Mark and DIrk.

SO you applaud Danny Ferry for getting ending contracts from a desperate man??

You misread the stones. We could have gotten more for King. Instead, we proved to be just as desperate as they were. NJ didn't celebrate picking up one of the largest contracts in basketball. They celebrate getting one of the best PG in basketball locked up.

[MaceCase]

Yup, evidently said desperate man took the worst contract in the league off our hands without it costing the Hawks any extra incentive. Applause all around.

[Eddielives]

Well my questions have been answered from the responses of those unwilling to credit DF for the moves he has made, thus far. Like AHF said, calling this a mission completed campaign by DF would be very shortsighted. But the cognitive dissonance that some are employing here is apparent when you put personal feeling aside about just seeing things go the way you would rather them go. Saying we got nothing in the Joe trade is using narrow vision. Only seeing things in your own agenda-laden perspective will always lead you to find a way to spin the scenario into negativity and crap on what in and of itself might have been a brilliant move. I would say the chances that there was any other team willing to take Joe were very slim. DF sought out that team and made it happen against all odds. I can't say for sure because I don't possess the ability to see into crystal balls and read people's thoughts(seemingly like some here do) but I believe DF probably would have just considered it icing on the cake if he were able to convince Jersey to trade one of it's stars for Joe. That wasn't his goal obviously.

It's also very enlightening that some who were staunch Joe defenders have come around to see that while they still hated to see Joe go for some very good reasons, they realize it had to be done if this franchise was going to have even a glimmer of hope to improve itself beyond mediocrity in the foreseeable future. The facts have been laid out that prove Joe hasn't gotten any better and he's still a vital part of New Jersey's gameplan. Just more evidence to prove it was a good move to let him go. I could see if he were rejuvenated and having a Joe year of say 5-6 years ago but it ain't the case. So why the continued argument that we would be better off with him and his salary just to possibly have a few more wins yet still no hope of overtaking the better teams in the east is just cognitive dissonance at it's finest. Facts are facts. I see more opinions being formulated by future events that have nothing to do with what has occurred and flawed logic in support of an aging and declining shooting guard being paid more than anyone in the league. Why is this so difficult?

[Guest]

Read your first sentence again.

Ferry has only traded our best player for a bunch of ending contracts. So that we can have capspace. OK. Since he cannot be judged by what he hasn't done, let's judge him on just that. He traded our best player for Nothing. Capspace represents what he hasn't done yet.

That's my point. The work is incomplete and you're giving him A+. I give him an I until I see what comes of this capspace.

Need I say more.

[Ruckus]

And it's hilarious to me that the Joe defenders would come out now conveniently during our worst skid of the season. Where were they when we were winning? Answer = nowhere.

[Eddielives]

And it's hilarious to me that the Joe defenders would come out now conveniently during our worst skid of the season. Where were they when we were winning? Answer = nowhere.

It is a bit of a coincidence isn't it. I wouldn't dare say that seeing Joe and New Jersey getting hot and the hawks hitting a wall would make some hawks fans feel emboldened to spin the trades into a negative light would it? Nah, no one would do that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Awe shucks, we're the spin masters? Could of fooled me with these hypothetical tomes told to you by your alternate dimension reading crystal ball.

Let's look at facts: the Hawks have continued to win at nearly the same rate while Joe Johnson is putting up his worst season in multiple categories. You already attempted the lame apologist argument that it's his usage to blame but why oh why would reducing a guy's offensive load have a negative effect on their efficiency, passing accuracy, rebounding and defensive effort? Thess things should increase in the wake of not having to burn so much energy to get a shot off and no longer being the emphasis of opposing coaches gameplans.

Why even make the argument of "we could of seen him here" when we can perfectly see him there with the exact roster and franchise you wanted him to have here and......he's sucking worse than with any supposedly cheaply filled and poorly drafted team he had Atlanta.

Why continue this fantasy that his contract has any positive value and that the Hawks were somehow impatient in dealing it? Do you not realize that given his current play with that perfect roster that he has lost even more value? If the Hawks had him now they would probably have to be throwing their own firsts and rookies along with other incentives just to get the same package from Brooklyn.

These are facts that would lead a logical person to conclude that Danny Ferry was fortuitous in moving both of the worst contracts in the league when he did and should thus be praised on that move alone rather than having to have any caveat attached to him about what he does from here to justify those moves. Look at a cot damn boxscore of Marvin and Joe for all you need to know but oh well, we're just bitter spin masters.

Yeah .. . let's look at the facts:

FACT: The Hawks are getting destroyed by every decent SG or SF in the league, because we have no one who can even remotely defend the position other than Josh Smith. Ferry brought in a bunch of shooters/gunners, but did nothing to address the defensive side of the basketball. People can make a case that he replaced he 29 ppg that JJ and Marvin was giving us last year. But he didn't replace the solid defense that both of those guys provided. And that has seen the defense go from giving up 93.2 ppg to 96.8 ppg.

FACT: Despite an increase in shooting percentage, and playing at a faster pace, the overall offensive production is literally the same as last year. 97.1 ppg vs 96.6 ppg last year. And a point per play number of 0.93 vs 0.92 last year. This is an offense that people said would easily average over 100 ppg. But every good defensive team finds a way to shut us down. And when we get shut down, we can't turn around and shut them down. So we lose.

FACT: We traded a guy who was a 6 time All-Star for 5 dead roaches and a draft pick we may not even can use for 3 years. We didn't add a single tangible asset to this team from that trade. Didn't gain a guy we could possibly use in a trade, nor a young player to try to develop. So Ferry has to sell to Josh Smith and Al Horford that the move is for the "future", and that we're going to build something great by adding talent with the "cap space" left by JJ.

FACT: And speaking of Josh Smith, he's the same guy that Ferry seemed to love during the summer, with Smith giving the love back . . only to see Ferry desperately tried to trade his butt for about 2 weeks leading up to the trade deadline. What happened to that love? And will anybody blame Smith for leaving us high and dry when the summer comes, when he sees his GM try to deal him?

FACT: Danny Ferry took the first deal he could find to deal JJ, regardless of how bad it was. He didn't even try to shop JJ around the league, weigh ALL potential offers from other teams, and make a deal that would be in the best interest of the franchise. He's convinced you, and the ownership, that having "cap space" was in the best interest of the franchise.

FACT: One of the big reasons for Brooklyn's success this year, has been the play of the 2nd unit. A 2nd unit that is led by #7, who was the former #2 here. For most of the season, JJ has had the highest + on the court rating of any Net. He's also had the biggest - rating when he's off the court. According to 82games.com, it's a difference of almost 16 points. That means that the Nets play much better with him in the game because he's not an offensive or defensive liability. But especially because he gives that 2nd unit a big advantage when he can function as the main scorer, and prevent people from doubling guys like Andray Blatche, who has seen his entire career path change by going from an outcast with the Wiz, to being a key role player with the Nets.

FACT: And as far as my plausible hypothetical scenarios that I present . . . this is the damn NBA. You never know what teams are thinking and what they might think they need or want during the season.

Whose to say that when the Lakers were going through all of their turmoil, that they couldn't be talked into making a straight up trade of Joe Johnson for Pau Gasol? Think D'Antoni wouldn't have been all-in for getting a former player that he knows would be great with both Kobe, Nash, and Howard, with Pau struggling finding his role in his offense? And you think that a frontline of Gasol - Horford - Smith wouldn't have bolstered this Hawks team to another level? That would've been a major coup for the Hawks, if they could've flipped JJ for Gasol. I'll go on record to say that we won't get a better player than Pau Gasol this summer with that "cap space".

Whose to say that when Toronto was looking to make a splash for a good player and remake their franchise, that they wouldn't have inquired to see if JJ was available, with us pulling out the type of deal that Memphis did with Rudy Gay? Instead of desperately trading Rudy away for scraps . . they waited until a deal opened up that would help the franchise overall. They've won 14 of 17 games since that trade, mainly because they flipped offensive only minded guys, for guys who can give you timely offense, but give you great defense and rebounding ( Prince, Daye, Davis ) . THEY had a plan, when it was time to move their high priced "star".

Whose to say that a desperate franchise like the Charlotte Bobcats wouldn't call Ferry around the trade deadline, and try to work out some sort of deal with us? They need something . . anything. No big name free agents are going to Charlotte, even though they'll throw MAX deals toward a couple of people ( including Josh Smith ). And their "college style" team with the college atmosphere they were trying to create there, is a complete failure. Maybe they team Kemba with a big guard like JJ, and have those 2 be your short term building block, and see what happens.

Like I said . . this is the damn NBA. And some of these franchises know that they're not going to land a big name, no matter how much "cap space" they have. So despite a player being overpaid, they'll take a chance on him to see if he can get them back to playoff level. Forget championship level. For teams like that, getting back to playoff level is the goal.

In Ferry We Trust . . is the motto around here . . even if we have no idea what the hell he's going to do.

Here's your play-doh. Make that statue out of him and sit it in front of Philips if you want.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And it's hilarious to me that the Joe defenders would come out now conveniently during our worst skid of the season. Where were they when we were winning? Answer = nowhere.

The "Joe defenders" have been here all year. It's the people that don't like Joe that have been constantly been bringing his name up throughout the year. They're the ones hoping he crashes and burns in Brooklyn, to validate the move to move him for NOTHING.

It's just that when it comes to this topic, it's silly for Hawks fans to try to clown the Nets for taking on JJ's contract, when they obviously had a concrete plan in place to build a playoff contender RIGHT NOW. They have an owner that is willing to do anything and everything to build the best team he possibly can. Matter of fact, I'll let current coach PJ Carleismo and Sixers coach Doug Collins tell it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/nets/2013/03/nets-are-projected-to-pay-about-58-million-in-luxury-tax-over-first-two-seasons-in-broo

PJ Carleismo:

“Couldn’t overstate it. It’s one of the best things an owner can do (willing to pay into the luxury tax). Giving a coach a longterm contract is more important,” quipped Nets interim coach PJ Carlesimo. “But other than that I think when you have an owner that’s willing to spend money and not pay lip-service. All the owners say they want to win a championship, When you have someone that is committed to winning it and is willing to expend funds to do it, give us the resources, that’s fantastic.”

Doug Collins:

“In this business if you’re going to keep your own free agents, it is a huge luxury,” Philadelphia coach Doug Collins said. “When you look at a team like Oklahoma City, they had to trade James Harden because of that situation."

“The important thing is if you’re going to pay a luxury tax you’re going to have to have a good team. That’s the most important thing. And Brooklyn has a very good team. They’re a much-improved defensive team over what they were last year. And they have a chance if they have everybody healthy to make nice run in the playoffs.”

Those are two veteran NBA coaches who have been in and around this league for a long time. What they're basically telling you is that you don't win by being "cheap". Most good players will get paid. Good players cost money. And if you want to win a title, you need great players with a few good players. And unless you get real fortunate like OKC and draft all of your good/great players at the same time, you have to PAY to have those types of players on your team.

What PJ is telling you is that his owner doesn't mind spending whatever he can to bring a title to Brooklyn. So how in the hell can Hawks fans talk about what Brooklyn is doing, when we've only been a taxpaying team ONE TIME in our entire history? And even then, we paid the tax stupidly, by keeping Stackhouse and Dampier.

Let's see if ownership and Ferry are truly willing to build a title team here. Let's see if they'll take a chance and go significantly into the Luxury Tax if necessary.

Some people have always said that "if you will build it, they will come" ( talking about the fans ). Let's see if they'll build it out of steel, or if they'll build it out of dirt and mud.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It is a bit of a coincidence isn't it. I wouldn't dare say that seeing Joe and New Jersey getting hot and the hawks hitting a wall would make some hawks fans feel emboldened to spin the trades into a negative light would it? Nah, no one would do that.

Eddie . . I've said from the time that trade was made, that it was a bad deal. I said from the jump that they at the very least had to get Marshon Brooks. But I wanted Gerald Wallace as well.

The trade was BAD. That cap space isn't going to mean crap, if we can't get one of the top free agents to Atlanta. And we may have even burned the bridge to even retain Smith, who we also may lose for nothing.

If Ferry wanted to make his own team, he should've done what Wretch said, and blow it up COMPLETELY last year. He shoud've traded JJ AND Smith, and possibly even Al, and just reconstructed the Hawks the way he wanted to. If that saw the Hawks winning 25 games this year and going back into the lottery, so be it. At least we'd know where we stand as a franchise, and what the actual game plan was.

But if his plan was to create enough cap space to lure Dwight Howard and Chris Paul to Atlanta, that was stupid as hell, because neither of those guys are coming here. There's no plausible reason why they would leave their current situation, to come to Atlanta.

So if those two aren't coming, who will Ferry target? Or more importantly, who will he OVERPAY to bring to Atlanta?

Edited March 13, 2013 by northcyde

[Ruckus]

You talk of Brooklyn's success this year but they are like 2 games better than us and we suck, right? Get over it man. So short sighted it's unbelievable. A week ago we were ahead of them and iIf they don't win with these players they will not win, period. They are stuck.And a coach spewing about paying into luxury tax and giving a coach a long term contract. Wow, that's a new one.

[MaceCase]

Yeah .. . let's look at the facts:

FACT: The Hawks are getting destroyed by every decent SG or SF in the league, because we have no one who can even remotely defend the position other than Josh Smith. Ferry brought in a bunch of shooters/gunners, but did nothing to address the defensive side of the basketball. People can make a case that he replaced he 29 ppg that JJ and Marvin was giving us last year. But he didn't replace the solid defense that both of those guys provided. And that has seen the defense go from giving up 93.2 ppg to 96.8 ppg.

Fact: The Hawks are ranked 9th in the league in defense Vs. 6th last year. Big difference right? Oh what's that, you were unaware that league rankings tend to change along with yearly league trends, wow.

FACT: Despite an increase in shooting percentage, and playing at a faster pace, the overall offensive production is literally the same as last year. 97.1 ppg vs 96.6 ppg last year. And a point per play number of 0.93 vs 0.92 last year. This is an offense that people said would easily average over 100 ppg. But every good defensive team finds a way to shut us down. And when we get shut down, we can't turn around and shut them down. So we lose.

Sooooo the fact that the offense didn't lose a beat despite losing "that one guy that can get his own shot" is a negative now? Keep spinning that web, Charlotte.

FACT: We traded a guy who was a 6 time All-Star for 5 dead roaches and a draft pick we may not even can use for 3 years. We didn't add a single tangible asset to this team from that trade. Didn't gain a guy we could possibly use in a trade, nor a young player to try to develop. So Ferry has to sell to Josh Smith and Al Horford that the move is for the "future", and that we're going to build something great by adding talent with the "cap space" left by JJ.

Uhm, we currently have the 16th pick in the draft from that trade and added the very tangible asset of not paying 89 million to a declining guard who can no longer play at an All Star level.

FACT: And speaking of Josh Smith, he's the same guy that Ferry seemed to love during the summer, with Smith giving the love back . . only to see Ferry desperately tried to trade his butt for about 2 weeks leading up to the trade deadline. What happened to that love? And will anybody blame Smith for leaving us high and dry when the summer comes, when he sees his GM try to deal him?

This is a fact or an assertion by you? Were you expecting Ferry to come in and tank his best trade asset from the beginning of the season by saying "Josh Smith has no future with us"? As with all of your machinations, that makes sense......somewhere.

FACT: Danny Ferry took the first deal he could find to deal JJ, regardless of how bad it was. He didn't even try to shop JJ around the league, weigh ALL potential offers from other teams, and make a deal that would be in the best interest of the franchise. He's convinced you, and the ownership, that having "cap space" was in the best interest of the franchise.

Oh, another "fact"? No, this is just the bitter Joe lover in you that still even refuses to acknowledge his current production but also the fact that the package that the Hawks received for him.....was and will forever be the best thing going. It was in the best interest of the franchise to not have 89 million tied up into a player that cannot even put up a league average PER, WS, TS% etc. etc. etc. any more. It is in the franchise's best interest that they have a clean slate to operate with rather than having to suffer through years of a Ben Gordon, Rashard Lewis or Jason Richardson.

FACT: One of the big reasons for Brooklyn's success this year, has been the play of the 2nd unit. A 2nd unit that is led by #7, who was the former #2 here. For most of the season, JJ has had the highest + on the court rating of any Net. He's also had the biggest - rating when he's off the court. According to 82games.com, it's a difference of almost 16 points. That means that the Nets play much better with him in the game because he's not an offensive or defensive liability. But especially because he gives that 2nd unit a big advantage when he can function as the main scorer, and prevent people from doubling guys like Andray Blatche, who has seen his entire career path change by going from an outcast with the Wiz, to being a key role player with the Nets.

So the 2nd unit is led by the guy averaging 15.9 points, 3.5 assists and 3.0 rebounds Per36....Not the guy averaging 19.3 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2.1 assists to go along with 2.1 steals per36 and a 22.3 PER vs a 14.1? Wow, look! I can spin stats too, and good on Joe for being a 20 million dollar Shane Battier without the defense or efficiency.

FACT: And as far as my plausible hypothetical scenarios that I present . . . this is the damn NBA. You never know what teams are thinking and what they might think they need or want during the season.

Really? Your crystal ball seems to be feeding you all the answers though.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You talk of Brooklyn's success this year but they are like 2 games better than us and we suck, right? Get over it man. So short sighted it's unbelievable. A week ago we were ahead of them and iIf they don't win with these players they will not win, period. They are stuck.And a coach spewing about paying into luxury tax and giving a coach a long term contract. Wow, that's a new one.

Brooklyn was one of the worst teams in the league last year, and have been for about the last 4 years. They blew up their "core" of ( Kidd, Carter, Jefferson ), and tried to reconstruct it through the draft. They tried to do it with draft picks ( Lopez, Terrance Williams, Favors ).

ENTER PROKOROV: DECEMBER 2010 . . as the majority owner

January 2011: They go all out to try to get Carmelo Anthony - FAILED

February 2011: They saw an opportunity to get Deron Williams, due to his turmoil in Utah, they LEAPED at the chance to do it. They essentially dealt Favors and what would be Enes Kanter to Utah for Deron.

July 2011: Nets seriously begin their hot pursuit of Dwight Howard. Nets fans call it, the "Dwightmare"

March 2012: Nets trade Okur, Shawne Williams, and their draft pick ( who would be Rookie of the Year - Damian Lilliard ), to Portland for Gerald Wallace. It's clear that the Nets are trying to build around a possible Deron - Dwight duo, even if neither are locked up after 2012.

June 2012: Nets trade 5 dead roaches and a draft pick for Joe Johnson. This will be the turning point for Deron making a decision to re-sign with Brooklyn, and even stopping the pursuit for Dwight Howard

July 2012: Nets re-sign Brook Lopez to a 4 year deal.

2012 - 13 season: Nets are on pace to go from 27 wins last year ( adjusted for 82 games ) to 48 wins this season. A 21 game improvement. And the core of that team will at least get another year to play with each other, to gain even more chemistry if need be.

People could very well make the argument that the Nets could have these players as key guys on the team.

PG - Lilliard

G - Brooks

F - Favors

C - Kanter

C - Lopez

They'd be a young team, and the Nets would surely have a lot of cap space. They'd be a young and exciting team, but they wouldn't be a playoff squad. Not yet anyway.

Brooklyn simply chose to go the opposite way. Get Deron and secure him. Go after Howard. When he isn't an option, go after JJ and resign Lopez . . . and go from there.

That's a total remake of a bad franchise in just 19 months.

As for the Hawks, it has nothing to do with how much better or worse we are over Brooklyn. It has everything to do with how we are going to build this team, and the mindset behind it. How can Hawks fans criticize anything the Nets franchise does, when we're not willing to do anything even remotely to what they're doing?

We're not in position to talk about anything that anybody else does.

[MaceCase]

Whose to say that when the Lakers were going through all of their turmoil, that they couldn't be talked into making a straight up trade of Joe Johnson for Pau Gasol?

Mitch Kupchak when he said they aren't making any trade of Pau that impacts their 2014 cap space. BUT BUT BUT championship contenders don't focus on "cap space"! Yea they do, they also pay the luxury tax for Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol.......not Joe frickin Johnson.

Think D'Antoni wouldn't have been all-in for getting a former player that he knows would be great with both Kobe, Nash, and Howard, with Pau struggling finding his role in his offense? And you think that a frontline of Gasol - Horford - Smith wouldn't have bolstered this Hawks team to another level? That would've been a major coup for the Hawks, if they could've flipped JJ for Gasol. I'll go on record to say that we won't get a better player than Pau Gasol this summer with that "cap space".

Funny, the Hawks could absorb Pau Gasol straight up with that capspace. Probably receive a pick or 2 for reducing the Lakers tax bill.

Whose to say that when Toronto was looking to make a splash for a good player and remake their franchise, that they wouldn't have inquired to see if JJ was available, with us pulling out the type of deal that Memphis did with Rudy Gay? Instead of desperately trading Rudy away for scraps . . they waited until a deal opened up that would help the franchise overall. They've won 14 of 17 games since that trade, mainly because they flipped offensive only minded guys, for guys who can give you timely offense, but give you great defense and rebounding ( Prince, Daye, Davis ) . THEY had a plan, when it was time to move their high priced "star".

LMAO. You were biggest loud mouth spouting that there was "No WAY!" that Memphis would flip Gay for cap purposes, that they had already done what they needed by selling Speights and other roster fodder for nothing..........only to have them trade Gay for a player more than 10 million cheaper a week later. Now your spin is "uhm, uhhhhh, well they had a plan!".

Did the Hawks not replace Joe's offense as you stated earlier with Louis and Korver? But in your head, Toronto that was looking to move their expiring Jose Calderon... would of weighed 31 year old Joe Johnson owed 89 million on the same level as 26 year old Rudy Gay owed 54 million. I'm sure that instead of capspace and pick in the teens to go along with the right to swap first and a future 2nd........you'd be praising Ferry for capspace, a 2nd rounder and Ed Davis.

Whose to say that a desperate franchise like the Charlotte Bobcats wouldn't call Ferry around the trade deadline, and try to work out some sort of deal with us? They need something . . anything. No big name free agents are going to Charlotte, even though they'll throw MAX deals toward a couple of people ( including Josh Smith ). And their "college style" team with the college atmosphere they were trying to create there, is a complete failure. Maybe they team Kemba with a big guard like JJ, and have those 2 be your short term building block, and see what happens.

Why weren't they calling Brooklyn at the deadline? How come they didn't call Memphis about Gay? Why is it that you hear stories of the Wizards and Warriors turning down a trade for James Harden because of fearing the cap commitment yet you think they are willing to take on Joe Johnson who is not even a star in the league? This is another of your foolish assertions.

Like I said . . this is the damn NBA. And some of these franchises know that they're not going to land a big name, no matter how much "cap space" they have. So despite a player being overpaid, they'll take a chance on him to see if he can get them back to playoff level. Forget championship level. For teams like that, getting back to playoff level is the goal.

This is the damn NBA yet your spin machine is too busy warping the actual events occuring around you.

In Ferry We Trust . . is the motto around here . . even if we have no idea what the hell he's going to do.

Here's your play-doh. Make that statue out of him and sit it in front of Philips if you want.

Awe, shucks, you mad about something? Is it because you had to scrap your Joe Johnson holding up a Final's MVP statue?

[MaceCase]

Brooklyn was one of the worst teams in the league last year, and have been for about the last 4 years. They blew up their "core" of ( Kidd, Carter, Jefferson ), and tried to reconstruct it through the draft. They tried to do it with draft picks ( Lopez, Terrance Williams, Favors ).

Wow, your spin machine is in overdrive. What happened to July 2010? Prok had already bought the Nets in May of that year, not December after making a bid in September of 2009. The Nets blew up their core of Carter, Kidd, Jefferson to go chase Lebron because of his good buddy Jay-Z and entice him with the upcoming move to Brooklyn........

They ended up with Jordan Farmar, Travis Outlaw, Anthony Morrow and Johan Petro.

They didn't hang that banner over Madison Square Garden before the draft......they did it before free agency.

Now the great irony here is that you are praising their moves when the Hawks themselves are sitting at the exact same spot they were in July 2010......sans the lotto picks. Oh well, love is blind.

[Guest]

All these 'plausible hypothetical scensrios' are pie in the sky:.u say let's see what wud have been with keeping Joe but trading Marvin for Devin and getting Lou but last night you pointed out that now you saw why Utah got rid of Devin ....smh. Why would LA want a declining Joe with that contract with so many years left when they gave away Lamar for free. LA was looking to get younger and more athletic if they were trading Pau (I wanted Pau last year when Joe was here).Toronto was looking for a YOUNG player with UPSIDE to help with winning and put fans in the seats, they would be more interested in Josh than Joe. Plus Gay is making less and has a shorter contract.For every hypothetical you present I can present a counter...it is after all the NBA and we don't know what teams are thinking.

[Watchman]

The "Joe defenders" have been here all year. It's the people that don't like Joe that have been constantly been bringing his name up throughout the year. They're the ones hoping he crashes and burns in Brooklyn, to validate the move to move him for NOTHING.

It's just that when it comes to this topic, it's silly for Hawks fans to try to clown the Nets for taking on JJ's contract, when they obviously had a concrete plan in place to build a playoff contender RIGHT NOW. They have an owner that is willing to do anything and everything to build the best team he possibly can. Matter of fact, I'll let current coach PJ Carleismo and Sixers coach Doug Collins tell it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/nets/2013/03/nets-are-projected-to-pay-about-58-million-in-luxury-tax-over-first-two-seasons-in-broo

PJ Carleismo:

“Couldn’t overstate it. It’s one of the best things an owner can do (willing to pay into the luxury tax). Giving a coach a longterm contract is more important,” quipped Nets interim coach PJ Carlesimo. “But other than that I think when you have an owner that’s willing to spend money and not pay lip-service. All the owners say they want to win a championship, When you have someone that is committed to winning it and is willing to expend funds to do it, give us the resources, that’s fantastic.”

Doug Collins:

“In this business if you’re going to keep your own free agents, it is a huge luxury,” Philadelphia coach Doug Collins said. “When you look at a team like Oklahoma City, they had to trade James Harden because of that situation."

“The important thing is if you’re going to pay a luxury tax you’re going to have to have a good team. That’s the most important thing. And Brooklyn has a very good team. They’re a much-improved defensive team over what they were last year. And they have a chance if they have everybody healthy to make nice run in the playoffs.”

Those are two veteran NBA coaches who have been in and around this league for a long time. What they're basically telling you is that you don't win by being "cheap". Most good players will get paid. Good players cost money. And if you want to win a title, you need great players with a few good players. And unless you get real fortunate like OKC and draft all of your good/great players at the same time, you have to PAY to have those types of players on your team.

What PJ is telling you is that his owner doesn't mind spending whatever he can to bring a title to Brooklyn. So how in the hell can Hawks fans talk about what Brooklyn is doing, when we've only been a taxpaying team ONE TIME in our entire history? And even then, we paid the tax stupidly, by keeping Stackhouse and Dampier.

Let's see if ownership and Ferry are truly willing to build a title team here. Let's see if they'll take a chance and go significantly into the Luxury Tax if necessary.

Some people have always said that "if you will build it, they will come" ( talking about the fans ). Let's see if they'll build it out of steel, or if they'll build it out of dirt and mud.

Wake us up when Brooklyn gets that title, ok?

[Guest]

Wake us up when Brooklyn gets that title, ok?

In one of his 'plausible hypotheticals' he already pointed out that come 2015 that having failed to win the 'ship or even making the Finals the Nets would be trading Joe. Ferry has long since realized that the Hawks weren't winning the Championship either.

[MaceCase]

The trade was BAD. That cap space isn't going to mean crap, if we can't get one of the top free agents to Atlanta. And we may have even burned the bridge to even retain Smith, who we also may lose for nothing.

If Ferry wanted to make his own team, he should've done what Wretch said, and blow it up COMPLETELY last year. He shoud've traded JJ AND Smith, and possibly even Al, and just reconstructed the Hawks the way he wanted to. If that saw the Hawks winning 25 games this year and going back into the lottery, so be it. At least we'd know where we stand as a franchise, and what the actual game plan was.

But if his plan was to create enough cap space to lure Dwight Howard and Chris Paul to Atlanta, that was stupid as hell, because neither of those guys are coming here. There's no plausible reason why they would leave their current situation, to come to Atlanta.

So if those two aren't coming, who will Ferry target? Or more importantly, who will he OVERPAY to bring to Atlanta?

Take a moment and a deep breath and recognize your argument here.

You are bitching about the team not being blown up.......despite only 3 members signed through the summer.

You are bitching about cap space......despite wondering about a blow up.

You are bitching about not knowing Ferry's plan or where the franchise stands......despite prognosticating exactly what you think Ferry's plan is and where the franchise stands.

[Watchman]

Funny picture.

Take a moment and a deep breath and recognize your argument here.

You are bitching about the team not being blown up.......despite only 3 members signed through the summer.

You are bitching about cap space......despite wondering about a blow up.

You are bitching about not knowing Ferry's plan or where the franchise stands......despite prognosticating exactly what you think Ferry's plan is and where the franchise stands.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Mitch Kupchak when he said they aren't making any trade of Pau that impacts their 2014 cap space. BUT BUT BUT championship contenders don't focus on "cap space"! Yea they do, they also pay the luxury tax for Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol.......not Joe frickin Johnson.

Oh really?

http://nba.si.com/2012/12/04/pau-gasol-trade-talks-los-angeles-lakers-mitch-kupchak/

Like I said, there was possibly a time in which the Lakers would've made a snap decision to rid themselves of a player who was showing that he couldn't play in their system.

Funny, the Hawks could absorb Pau Gasol straight up with that capspace. Probably receive a pick or 2 for reducing the Lakers tax bill.

Oh really?

Pau is a free agent this year?

We're going to have 20+ million in cap space next year?

You sure about that boss?

LMAO. You were biggest loud mouth spouting that there was "No WAY!" that Memphis would flip Gay for cap purposes, that they had already done what they needed by selling Speights and other roster fodder for nothing..........only to have them trade Gay for a player more than 10 million cheaper a week later. Now your spin is "uhm, uhhhhh, well they had a plan!".

I said that the Griz weren't just going to GIVE Rudy Gay away, just to get under the tax. And they didn't. When you get a solid defensive SF like Tayshawn Prince, who can also knock down timely outside shots within that Grizzlies offense, and decent young players like Ed Davis and Austin Daye, you didn't just GIVE Gay away. They traded him for players that fit specifically within their system.

Did the Hawks not replace Joe's offense as you stated earlier with Louis and Korver? But in your head, Toronto that was looking to move their expiring Jose Calderon... would of weighed 31 year old Joe Johnson owed 89 million on the same level as 26 year old Rudy Gay owed 54 million. I'm sure that instead of capspace and pick in the teens to go along with the right to swap first and a future 2nd........you'd be praising Ferry for capspace, a 2nd rounder and Ed Davis.

The problem with you is that not only do you not understand the mindset of desperate teams, you have no imagination whatsoever. I used Toronto as an example of what a desperate team looking to remake themselves, will do. The team could've very well been Sacramento or Detroit or even a playoff level team like Milwaukee, who may think that flipping Monta Ellis + filler for Joe Johnson would help them retain Brandon Jennings for the long haul . . and possibly make them a more balanced team overall.

You talk as if teams will never take chances in this league and that every contract in the world is untradeable.

Why weren't they calling Brooklyn at the deadline? How come they didn't call Memphis about Gay? Why is it that you hear stories of the Wizards and Warriors turning down a trade for James Harden because of fearing the cap commitment yet you think they are willing to take on Joe Johnson who is not even a star in the league? This is another of your foolish assertions.[/qupte]

Yep. I'm the fool. Oh wait . . .

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1492190-nba-rumors-charlotte-bobcats-a-perfect-fit-for-rudy-gay

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/11/michael-jordan-says-bobcats-called-thunder-about-james-harden/

Michael Jordan Q & A

Q: James Harden was just traded from the Oklahoma City Thunder to the Houston Rockets. Were the Bobcats ever in the mix to acquire him?

A: ‘We made a couple phone calls. That’s all I can say.’

Q: Do you still believe a major free agent would come to the Bobcats?

A: ‘If the (collective bargaining agreement) operates the way it’s supposed to, there will be very few teams with the right cap space (to pursue major free agents). Hopefully we can start picking them off that way, by maintaining our flexibility. Maybe we can provide them with the financial reward most players are starting to look for. Hoping the CBA will work that way for small-market teams – some parity.’”

( i.e. - the Bobcats will get desperate to bring anybody of star prowess to the squad, if they can't get what they want in free agency )

This is the damn NBA yet your spin machine is too busy warping the actual events occuring around you.

Awe, shucks, you mad about something? Is it because you had to scrap your Joe Johnson holding up a Final's MVP statue?

Not mad at all. Just disappointed that all of you are drinking the Ferry kool-aid. Let that man bring in something significant FIRST, before acting like he knows what he's doing. Trading away players and shedding salary is the easy part. Building a winner is something entirely different. Let's see who that dude targets next summer and in 2014. And let's see who he can actually get.