Cap space article.

[Peoriabird]

But but but, tell me how I'm not making sense by comparing some bench player to Kobe next! Yea, that will show me. I know you suck at understanding stats so it's no surprise that you can't establish context.

You have an F'up mouth dude. Pretty offensive stuff...No one come here to be insulted like this so chill out a little bro.

[Admin]

Jefferson is 40th among all eligible players at the C position in true shooting %. Not exactly elite but he is right there with guys like Kaman, Monroe and Cousins while being ahead of Hibbert. Unfortunately he doesn't offer the same level of defense as those guys but he's a decent rebounder for his size and has maybe the best post moves in the league and likes to play in the paint. I wouldn't overpay for him but wouldn't be mad if we got him for $12 and built the right team around him.

[AHF]

northcyde - Sorry I messed up your plan. Can you fill in the names and numbers because I don't follow it?

I'm not sure if the disconnect is where we think the market will land (I expect Barnes to earn a higher deal this offseason, for example) or if it is the type of player (are you talking about a multi-year deal with Dalembert or is there another big you see like Zaza or Kaman, etc.).

[MaceCase]

You have an F'up mouth dude. Pretty offensive stuff...No one come here to be insulted like this so chill out a little bro.

Oh, you wanna backseat mod now?

[AHF]

More than anyone is willing to spend on them? I don't think I said that and since there are only 6 to 8 teams with the cap space to sign them that would also be a very narrow minded view.

Jefferson and pieces got Garnett already. I guess you are assuming no GM out of the 30 in the NBA values these players any more than you. I am assuming there is quite a bit of gray and not all black and white. If Ferry signs them there are at least a few of the 30 who value them as much as he does.

You aren't seriously comparing the trade value of a 22 year old Al Jefferson earning 2.48M to a 30 year old Jefferson earning $13-15M, are you? lol

If you are a lottery team you might trade for a young, cheap stud like Jefferson as a player to build around for the next decade. If you are dealing today's Jefferson you don't get that same value.

How do I know this? Because the Jazz relentlessly shopped Jefferson and never ended up with anything worth more than the cap room his leaving would create. If Jefferson could command a lottery pick today, he would have been shopped for a lottery pick already.

[MaceCase]

Jefferson is 40th among all eligible players at the C position in true shooting %. Not exactly elite but he is right there with guys like Kaman, Monroe and Cousins while being ahead of Hibbert. Unfortunately he doesn't offer the same level of defense as those guys but he's a decent rebounder for his size and has maybe the best post moves in the league and likes to play in the paint. I wouldn't overpay for him but wouldn't be mad if we got him for $12 and built the right team around him.

There's the problem. He's supposed to be this elite post scorer yet he's down in the dregs of rankings with all of the least efficient big men in the league who predominantly take jumpers or are chided for bad shot selection. There is a huge disconnect between what people say he's good at and the results it's producing.

Edited May 17, 2013 by MaceCase

[AHF]

Oh, you wanna backseat mod now?

I will front seat mod and tell everyone to cool down and keep to the topic. No need to get personal on anything. If you are frustrated with someone's interpretation of something, just stick to the topic and not the person's intelligence or other personal characteristics.

We all argue about things but should do it in a way that we could go grab a drink together and watch some basketball when the debate is done.

[Buzzard]

You aren't seriously comparing the trade value of a 22 year old Al Jefferson earning 2.48M to a 30 year old Jefferson earning $13-15M, are you? lol

If you are a lottery team you might trade for a young, cheap stud like Jefferson as a player to build around for the next decade. If you are dealing today's Jefferson you don't get that same value.

How do I know this? Because the Jazz relentlessly shopped Jefferson and never ended up with anything worth more than the cap room his leaving would create. If Jefferson could command a lottery pick today, he would have been shopped for a lottery pick already.

Jefferson is also on the end of his deal. a UFA, and cap space this year for the Jazz. Kind of hard to match his salary without taking on any salary. Very similar problem we had with Josh. The Spurs wanted Jefferson, that's enough to convince me he still has plenty of value and talent.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

Jefferson is also on the end of his deal. a UFA, and cap space this year for the Jazz. Kind of hard to match his salary without taking on any salary. Very similar problem we had with Josh. The Spurs wanted Jefferson, that's enough to convince me he still has plenty of value and talent.

It's very hard to make the jump of seeing the Spurs wanting Jefferson as a piece in their scheme (FYI, behind Tim, Tony and Manu) as them equating him to a top option. Being as Stephen Jackson's (a player they ended up cutting) 10 million expiring was the main piece they were trying to flip for Jefferson, you still aren't establishing him as a valuable trade commodity.

[Buzzard]

It's very hard to make the jump of seeing the Spurs wanting Jefferson as a piece in their scheme (FYI, behind Tim, Tony and Manu) as them equating him to a top option. Being as Stephen Jackson's (a player they ended up cutting) 10 million expiring was the main piece they were trying to flip for Jefferson, you still aren't establishing him as a valuable trade commodity.

You are not serious in thinking the Jazz should have flipped Al for Jackson are you?

It comes down to who is the most valuable and better player. Its not even a contest, you keep Jefferson. I am not going to bash Utah one bit for not wanting to donate Jefferson to a conference rival for a championship run.

[MaceCase]

You are not serious in thinking the Jazz should have flipped Al for Jackson are you?

It comes down to who is the most valuable and better player. Its not even a contest, you keep Jefferson. I am not going to bash Utah one bit for not wanting to donate Jefferson to a conference rival for a championship run.

Your statement was that the Spurs wanted him so that was enough to convince you on his value when the truth of the matter was that they only valued him to the extent of flipping Jackson for him.

Do you see the disconnect that I'm pointing out here?

The Spurs wanting a player doesn't give him this magical value especially when all they want to trade for him is poor assets. If they were willing to part with Kawhi Leonard in addition to other prospects or one of their big three then you'd have a point but unfortunately that was not the case.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

What about game 7 where Noah had like 24 pts and 14 boards? Brook is slow and cannot defend the PnR and this killed the Nets throughout the series.

I meant Game 7, not Game 6.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The money that it takes to acquire Lopez or Jefferson (basically a max) is Ludacris (ooh ooh) when they provide nothing on defense.

I will more than happily take Zaza as a backup on a 4 million deal over one of these 1 dimensional clowns any day of the week. Atleast Zaza will leave us flexibility with the cap and not stuck on a treadmill for the next 5 years.

Why would you be happy with mediocrity when he have dealt with it for the past 7 years?

LOL @ be happy with Zaza, but then accuse ME of being happy with mediocrity?

That's the type of insanity that goes on in this forum. People value scrubs like Zaza instead of guys who can ball. And that's no disrespect to Zaza. But compared to guys like Jefferson and Lopez, he's a scrub.

[Buzzard]

Your statement was that the Spurs wanted him so that was enough to convince you on his value when the truth of the matter was that they only valued him to the extent of flipping Jackson for him.

Do you see the disconnect that I'm pointing out here?

The Spurs wanting a player doesn't give him this magical value especially when all they want to trade for him is poor assets. If they were willing to part with Kawhi Leonard in addition to other prospects or one of their big three then you'd have a point but unfortunately that was not the case.

You don't send that much for a UFA. Getting one pick is usually the best you can hope for unless his name is Bron or Howard. And I would still balk at the chance of having to deal with Al and Duncan for 2 or 3 more years should Jefferson sign and remain a Spur.

[MaceCase]

You don't send that much for a UFA. Getting one pick is usually the best you can hope for unless his name is Bron or Howard. And I would still balk at the chance of having to deal with Al and Duncan for 2 or 3 more years should Jefferson sign and remain a Spur.

Ever heard of Carmelo Anthony or Chris Paul either? How about Gerald Wallace to lower the bar? They were/are UFAs at the time of their trades so this once again becomes the questions: what is his value and do the Spurs value him?

If a player has value or a team values them then they won't balk at attaching sweetener especially if it means they are in the driver seat to resign said player with Bird rights and all. Or they just didn't see him as much more than a player who may or may not fit and wouldn't mind if all it cost them was a little used reserve.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Really, North. This is the childish argument you are going to resort to? Tyson Chandler isn't known as a center who can create his own shot nor a #1 option, he is a finisher on offense. Nothing more and nothing less so a player tasked with doing nothing but that SHOULD have a high TS%. But of course, when comparing between "elite scorers" then you have a legitimate argument in comparing TS%.

But lo! Where does the Elite Al Jefferson stand in efficiency next to his peers of other #1 options? Down in the dregs with the Jamal Crawfords.

So, he's not likely to ever win a DPOY nor get on an All Defense team but his one starling quality is league average at best. Why exactly would we want him, and for 13+ million?!

But but but, tell me how I'm not making sense by comparing some bench player to Kobe next! Yea, that will show me. I know you suck at understanding stats so it's no surprise that you can't establish context.

You guys are the ones who jump all over these advance stats, and try to make them out to be the end all, be all. You guys take ONE stat, and try to formulate an entire assessment of a player. Forget actually watching the games and seeing for yourself how the guy plays, and using the advance stats to see if they correlate. Nope.

Dwight Howard has a TS% of .598

Tim Duncan has a TS% of .557

Al Jefferson has a TS% of .531

Now . . . it's 2 minutes to go in a game, and you need a score. Rank in order who you are going to? Nevermind, I'll rank them.

1) Duncan

2) Jefferson

3) Dwight

And why does Dwight rank 3rd on that list, despite having a higher TS% than both Duncan and Jefferson? Because Dwight does nothing but score from around 5 feet and in. And if he gets fouled, he will more often than not only make one FT.

If left one on one, Dwight will be a threat to score. But most teams will hack him at the end of games, making him score from the FT line . . . which will virtually make his great TS% useless.

Both Duncan and Jefferson can take their man out to 17 feet and shoot over top of him, or create their own shot in the post. If either gets fouled, both Duncan and Jefferson can go to the line and knock down 2 FTs.

Despite Howard's great TS%, there's a reason why Shaq said even before Lopez had his All-Star year, that Lopez was actually the better offensive center than Howard. Shaq thinks that Dwight should be dominating people. But he doesn't

Lopez's TS% for his career stands at .562. Al Horford, by the way, stands at .571.

So is Horford a more efficient scorer than Tim Duncan? Especially in situations where you NEED a bucket?

The ONLY reason why Al Jefferson doesn't have a higher TS%, is because he doesn't draw frree throw attempts at a high rate, which the TS% puts a pretty high emphasis on. But he also doesn't turn the ball over at nearly the rate of most top low post options as well.

On a per possession basis, he's going to be around 1 point per possession, which is damn good for a guy who is consistently the #1 or #2 option in an offense.

So strike me down if I would like to see what a guy like Jefferson can do alongside Al Horford, who would finally get a chance to play PF on 70% of his minutes. That frontline intrigues the hell out of me.

But you stick with that Zaza - Horford frontline if you want.

Edited May 17, 2013 by northcyde

[Buzzard]

Ever heard of Carmelo Anthony or Chris Paul either? How about Gerald Wallace to lower the bar? They were/are UFAs at the time of their trades so this once again becomes the questions: what is his value and do the Spurs value him?

If a player has value or a team values them then they won't balk at attaching sweetener especially if it means they are in the driver seat to resign said player with Bird rights and all. Or they just didn't see him as much more than a player who may or may not fit and wouldn't mind if all it cost them was a little used reserve.

I guess man. Jefferson must be a bum and that's why the Spurs inquired about him. Your logic is flawed simply because they wanted him and the Spurs know talent if nothing else.

Then again you act like Utah had no say and/or they really wanted this deal. The Spurs are a rock solid championship contender with two border line players rotating as starters ( Splitter/Blair ). Give them Jefferson and his rights. What competing GM in their right mind wants to do that?

Edited May 17, 2013 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Jefferson is 40th among all eligible players at the C position in true shooting %. Not exactly elite but he is right there with guys like Kaman, Monroe and Cousins while being ahead of Hibbert. Unfortunately he doesn't offer the same level of defense as those guys but he's a decent rebounder for his size and has maybe the best post moves in the league and likes to play in the paint. I wouldn't overpay for him but wouldn't be mad if we got him for $12 and built the right team around him.

How many centers listed above him in TS%, is a better player offensively than Jefferson?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Don't take that one stat, and try to make some sweeping judgement about his game or how efficient he is. Guys like Joakim Noah, Deandre Jordan, Tiago Splitter, and even Zaza had a higher TS% than Jefferson last year. But no one in their right mind is going to say that any of those guys are better offensive centers than Al Jefferson.

[MaceCase]

I guess man. Jefferson must be a bum and that's why the Spurs inquired about him. Your logic is flawed simply because they wanted him and the Spurs know talent if nothing else.

Then again you act like Utah had no say and/or they really wanted this deal. The Spurs are a rock solid championship contender with two border line players rotating as starters ( Splitter/Blair ). Give them Jefferson and his rights. What competing GM in their right mind wants to do that?

Really now.......I have flawed logic? So the Spurs "want" a guy but they aren't willing to offer up value for him. This is evidence of them valuing him.

And the Jazz, having a player that they themselves aren't even likely to retain would balk at moving him for another expiring and future prospects.

Yes, this makes absolute sense.

[AHF]

Really now.......I have flawed logic? So the Spurs "want" a guy but they aren't willing to offer up value for him. This is evidence of them valuing him.

And the Jazz, having a player that they themselves aren't even likely to retain would balk at moving him for another expiring and future prospects.

Yes, this makes absolute sense.

Here is how I see it.

The Spurs would not give up a late first round pick along with Stephen Jackson for Jefferson even though they would acquire his rights and be able to resign him this offseason. This is because they didn't intend to resign him this offseason. If they could get Jefferson for a worthless expiring deal then that was great. If they had to give up even a low first round pick worth of value, then it wasn't worth it because he wasn't worth it to the Spurs for future years given what he would cost to sign.

The Jazz had every reason to deal Jefferson. They had a stacked frontcourt, including two young studs who performed well in limited minutes waiting for an opportunity. They had plenty of needs at PG and the wings. With Jefferson, their best case scenario was an 8th seed and a first round exit. Whatever sweetener above an expiring contract the Jazz was offered was so puny that they didn't unload him and chose to simply clear the cap space.

So how does that translate into a lottery pick from a team that isn't one mature piece away from a championship?

If Al was 25, I could get behind the idea that he could be flipped for a lottery pick but after signing a significant contract with the Hawks and hitting the big 3-0 by the time the trade actually happened?

He didn't any real interest during his age 28 season, so why would he generate significantly more interest in the future when he is higher priced and older?