Larry Coon: Hawks can get Smoove, D12 and CP3 using bird rights?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The biggest problem will be that is we lose key players you need for a title to do that. D12 and CP3 will have to take less like Bron, Bosh and Wade did. We have to use Miami and San Antonio as examples in this. You put too much money and not enough players can hurt you. Lou Will is a player you need for making a run for the title. He would be our only off the bench player who is a lock for 15ppg. We need that, especially if Jenkins shooting is cold and Webster is going up v. Lebron.

Look at these title teams, they all took less than they could get on the open market. Westbrook, Duncan, Parker, Manu, Bron, Wade, and Bosh for example. D12 and CP3 want titles, they need to scarfice some money to play together and build a superteam that fits and is in the prime of their careers.

Let me throw a list of free agents at you, and see if you think they can possibly be a better fit than Lou Williams, if we get rid of him to create more cap space

- Jarrett Jack ( PG )

- OJ Mayo ( G )

- Jerryd Bayless ( G )

- Nate Robinson ( G )

- Kevin Martin ( G )

- JR Smith ( G )

- Nick Young ( G )

- Chris Copeland ( F )

All of these players are very capable of being that lead scorer off the bench. And my thinking is that most of these players could possibly be signed for a few years at the full MLE level, once we're over the Salary Cap after signing Howard, Paul, our draft picks, and a few fringe players.

And on a team featuring Paul, Howard, and Horford, I think that 4th leading scorer on the team will average somewhere between11 - 14 ppg. But if we're implementing a San Antonio style type of system here, the PPG breakdown may look something like this:

Howard - 20 ppg

Paul - 18 ppg

Horford - 16 ppg

"scorer" - 11 ppg

Jenkins - 10 ppg

If Jenkins struggles, maybe the "scorer's" ppg will rise to around 13 - 14 ppg. Or maybe Howard, Paul, and Horford will take it upon themselves and score a lot more.

All I know is that Lou Williams' favorable contract cannot be a factor in all of this. If Howard and Paul want as close to the max as possible, you sell off any and everybody not named Al Horford to make that happen. Even if that includes Jenkins and our draft picks this year.

You don't blink, when you have a chance to secure an impact player(s).

[NBASupes]

Let me throw a list of free agents at you, and see if you think they can possibly be a better fit than Lou Williams, if we get rid of him to create more cap space

- Jarrett Jack ( PG )

- OJ Mayo ( G )

- Jerryd Bayless ( G )

- Nate Robinson ( G )

- Kevin Martin ( G )

- JR Smith ( G )

- Nick Young ( G )

- Chris Copeland ( F )

All of these players are very capable of being that lead scorer off the bench. And my thinking is that most of these players could possibly be signed for a few years at the full MLE level, once we're over the Salary Cap after signing Howard, Paul, our draft picks, and a few fringe players.

And on a team featuring Paul, Howard, and Horford, I think that 4th leading scorer on the team will average somewhere between11 - 14 ppg. But if we're implementing a San Antonio style type of system here, the PPG breakdown may look something like this:

Howard - 20 ppg

Paul - 18 ppg

Horford - 16 ppg

"scorer" - 11 ppg

Jenkins - 10 ppg

If Jenkins struggles, maybe the "scorer's" ppg will rise to around 13 - 14 ppg. Or maybe Howard, Paul, and Horford will take it upon themselves and score a lot more.

All I know is that Lou Williams' favorable contract cannot be a factor in all of this. If Howard and Paul want as close to the max as possible, you sell off any and everybody not named Al Horford to make that happen. Even if that includes Jenkins and our draft picks this year.

You don't blink, when you have a chance to secure an impact player(s).

Jack is not leaving GS.

Mayo will get more than the MLE.

Bayless not even close to as good a 6th man as Lou.

Nate doesn't fit what we are trying to do. He would be a fit with the Joe-Jamal Hawks

K-Martin is getting more than the MLE and if he gets the MLE, it will likely be with OKC.

JR is not leaving NY plus he doesn't fit what we are trying to do. He fits the Joe-Jamal Hawks

Nick Young is a no. Extremely low BBIQ players is a no go.

Not this Copeland guy again. You mentioned him a month ago. It was a bad idea then and it is now. Lou at his contract with his value is worth it. These guys aren't or if they are they are in a good situation for what they do as it is.

Not only that but we don't just lose Lou but we have to spend our MLE on one of these players when we can keep Lou and sign a SF to fill the void we have at SF. Once again, be logical. If CP3 and Dwight want a ring, they need a team around them, not just three players and couple role players but a team.

I think your scoring chart is wrong.

Horford and Dwight can be around 20-23PPG a piece. CP3 at 18ppg and Jenkins is a 15PPG scorer with that lineup.

We still need someone who can drop 15PPG anytime which is what Lou provides and a SF who can hit threes, play off the ball on offense and defend at SF as well. We do not have that SF on the roster.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Leadership

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The other thing is this.

IF we do secure a "Big 3" in the form of Howard, Paul, and Horford, will that entice decent veteran guys to possibly sign here for the league minimum, in order to chase a ring?

Could we get solid veterans like Chauncey Billups and Elton Brand to come here and give us quality bench minutes, if we have a Big 3? I think guys like that would be in play for us.

[NBASupes]

The other thing is this.

IF we do secure a "Big 3" in the form of Howard, Paul, and Horford, will that entice decent veteran guys to possibly sign here for the league minimum, in order to chase a ring?

Could we get solid veterans like Chauncey Billups and Elton Brand to come here and give us quality bench minutes, if we have a Big 3? I think guys like that would be in play for us.

Most of those players are like the ones we had on the bench last year. None of them are that good. Be logical, we are trying to build a culture and a place to win for years to come.

We have the elite movement PF.

The elite 6th man.

A shooter who is good off the ball in Jenkins who has some potential.

We have Scott who has very good off ball skills and has some potential.

We add CP3 and Dwight. That makes everything easier but we need some pieces to solidify the unit.

We can solve the center and backup SG issue in the draft. At our slot, SF is a weak position but for role playing SF's, it's strong with guys like Webster and Brewer.

That would give us a complete team. One that stacks up extremely well v. every NBA team. No team should be able to give us serious issues.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Jack is not leaving GS.

Mayo will get more than the MLE.

Bayless not even close to as good a 6th man as Lou.

Nate doesn't fit what we are trying to do. He would be a fit with the Joe-Jamal Hawks

K-Martin is getting more than the MLE and if he gets the MLE, it will likely be with OKC.

JR is not leaving NY plus he doesn't fit what we are trying to do. He fits the Joe-Jamal Hawks

Nick Young is a no. Extremely low BBIQ players is a no go.

Not this Copeland guy again. You mentioned him a month ago. It was a bad idea then and it is now. Lou at his contract with his value is worth it. These guys aren't or if they are they are in a good situation for what they do as it is.

Not only that but we don't just lose Lou but we have to spend our MLE on one of these players when we can keep Lou and sign a SF to fill the void we have at SF. Once again, be logical. If CP3 and Dwight want a ring, they need a team around them, not just three players and couple role players but a team.

I think your scoring chart is wrong.

Horford and Dwight can be around 20-23PPG a piece. CP3 at 18ppg and Jenkins is a 15PPG scorer with that lineup.

We still need someone who can drop 15PPG anytime which is what Lou provides and a SF who can hit threes, play off the ball on offense and defend at SF as well. We do not have that SF on the roster.

- Jack will go to any quality team that pays him, and plays him meaningful minutes. In Atlanta, he could very well be our starting 2 guard alongside Paul, while also handing the backup PG duties.

- So OJ is now getting more than the MLE? I thought most Hawk fans thought he was garbage? But now he's going to get paid like he's a high quality role player? OK. Mayo would be perfect beside Paul though, or as a 6th man scorer.

- Agreed. Bayless isn't as good as Lou.

- Nate Robinson did just about everything better than Lou did last season. He shot better. He ran the point better. His defense was even better ( and Nate is nowhere near a good defender ). And he's much more durable. The only question would be could a "mini-me" backcourt of Robinson and Paul play together for about 4 - 6 minutes a night, with them trying to push the tempo as much as possible ( ala what Paul and Bledsoe did last season at times ). That would enable Nate to get 17 - 20 minutes a game.

- If Coon is right, and this new CBA is going to suppress some salaries, a guy like Martin ( who is strictly a one-dimensional player ) may see his stock significantly reduced. Guys like he and JR Smith show the capability to be big time scorers. But because they're so one-dimensional, their value is diminished. I will say that the MLE is probably the minimum he'll get from somebody.

- See the above. The same applies to JR Smith

- Chris Copeland would be PERFECT in a ball movement heavy, San Antonio style system, because not only can he put the ball on the floor and score, he can shoot the spot up 3 pointer. Anybody who believes strongly in analytics will see that Crawford's numbers were off the charts last year, and Woody may have made a mistake in relying on the schizophrenic JR Smith to provide the bulk of the Knicks' bench scoring. His weakness is defense, not offense.

1.04 points per play . . 30th in the league . . . shot 47.4% FG - 42.9% 3FG

1.27 points per play as the Pick and Roll Man ( as a guy who can play both SF and PF ) . . . 10th in the league . . . shot 54.4% FG - 44.8% 3FG . . . this basically means that he was scoring by going hard to the hole, and by knocking down the 3 point shot.

1.20 points per play as a Spot Up shooter ( representing 33% of his offense ) . . . 26th in the league . . . shot 49.3% FG - 41.7% 3FG

Lou Williams is a scorer . . . not a shooter. His career high as a 3 point shooter came last year at 36.7%. Can he improve on that mark, stay the same, or regress back to his normal 34% 3 point shooting?

He's also a guy that crashed and burned in the playoffs ( ala Jamal Crawford ), when teams significantly tightened up on him.

And I don't know how an off the bench scorer is going to average 15 ppg, if Horford and Dwight are averaging more than 20, and Paul is also close to 20 ppg. Plus Jenkins is getting you 15 ppg?

Nah man . . . way to ambitious from a ppg standpoint. If anything, you're going to see our top 3 guys get their points, and everybody behind them be somewhere around 7 - 12 ppg. The San Antonio system is a "share the wealth" type of system that looks to get the best shot in a possession, by having the right people take that shot.

Most people thought the Hawks last year would easily average over 100 ppg last year, and we didn't even come close.

Like I said, if Paul and Howard want the max, you sell off everybody other than Horford to make that happen. Lou Williams isn't THAT important. Find somebody ( or multiple people ) who can replace what he does on the court.

[Admin]

I think you guys are both overestimating the amount of points those guys are going to average. Maybe Dwight and CP3 will get close to 20 but Al is more than likely around 15 and then we will see a big drop off to a whole group of guys getting 7-10 points. I don't know about Copeland but I think that you're putting way too much into what he could be vs what he's done. I think we are far better off drafting a 2 way player like Franklin or taking a deadly shooter and incredible passer like Karasev to play the 3.

[NBASupes]

- Jack will go to any quality team that pays him, and plays him meaningful minutes. In Atlanta, he could very well be our starting 2 guard alongside Paul, while also handing the backup PG duties.

- So OJ is now getting more than the MLE? I thought most Hawk fans thought he was garbage? But now he's going to get paid like he's a high quality role player? OK. Mayo would be perfect beside Paul though, or as a 6th man scorer.

- Agreed. Bayless isn't as good as Lou.

- Nate Robinson did just about everything better than Lou did last season. He shot better. He ran the point better. His defense was even better ( and Nate is nowhere near a good defender ). And he's much more durable. The only question would be could a "mini-me" backcourt of Robinson and Paul play together for about 4 - 6 minutes a night, with them trying to push the tempo as much as possible ( ala what Paul and Bledsoe did last season at times ). That would enable Nate to get 17 - 20 minutes a game.

- If Coon is right, and this new CBA is going to suppress some salaries, a guy like Martin ( who is strictly a one-dimensional player ) may see his stock significantly reduced. Guys like he and JR Smith show the capability to be big time scorers. But because they're so one-dimensional, their value is diminished. I will say that the MLE is probably the minimum he'll get from somebody.

- See the above. The same applies to JR Smith

- Chris Copeland would be PERFECT in a ball movement heavy, San Antonio style system, because not only can he put the ball on the floor and score, he can shoot the spot up 3 pointer. Anybody who believes strongly in analytics will see that Crawford's numbers were off the charts last year, and Woody may have made a mistake in relying on the schizophrenic JR Smith to provide the bulk of the Knicks' bench scoring. His weakness is defense, not offense.

1.04 points per play . . 30th in the league . . . shot 47.4% FG - 42.9% 3FG

1.27 points per play as the Pick and Roll Man ( as a guy who can play both SF and PF ) . . . 10th in the league . . . shot 54.4% FG - 44.8% 3FG . . . this basically means that he was scoring by going hard to the hole, and by knocking down the 3 point shot.

1.20 points per play as a Spot Up shooter ( representing 33% of his offense ) . . . 26th in the league . . . shot 49.3% FG - 41.7% 3FG

Lou Williams is a scorer . . . not a shooter. His career high as a 3 point shooter came last year at 36.7%. Can he improve on that mark, stay the same, or regress back to his normal 34% 3 point shooting?

He's also a guy that crashed and burned in the playoffs ( ala Jamal Crawford ), when teams significantly tightened up on him.

And I don't know how an off the bench scorer is going to average 15 ppg, if Horford and Dwight are averaging more than 20, and Paul is also close to 20 ppg. Plus Jenkins is getting you 15 ppg?

Nah man . . . way to ambitious from a ppg standpoint. If anything, you're going to see our top 3 guys get their points, and everybody behind them be somewhere around 7 - 12 ppg. The San Antonio system is a "share the wealth" type of system that looks to get the best shot in a possession, by having the right people take that shot.

Most people thought the Hawks last year would easily average over 100 ppg last year, and we didn't even come close.

Like I said, if Paul and Howard want the max, you sell off everybody other than Horford to make that happen. Lou Williams isn't THAT important. Find somebody ( or multiple people ) who can replace what he does on the court.

I disagree on your scoring assessment and Lou's role was much bigger for Philly then it will be for us. He will do a specific role. In Philly, he had to be their #1 option. He will be more efficient because of it.

Mayo rumors: http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/oj_mayo

No one has a direct feel but SG's are hard finds and he's looking at getting 7-9 mil.

Atlanta could at most offer the MLE if they land CP3 and Dwight. GS will match that if not pay more. Not happening.

Why mention Bayless then? Plus Memphis wants him back.

Martin will still be worth more than the MLE if he gets the MLE, he will stay in OKC and not elsewhere.

No Nate did not. He was Chicago's 3rd string PG and his top five units all had more losses than wins on a team that won over 55% of their games. You are overrating Nate for the Brooklyn and Chicago series where he had free will to play his style of Basketball which wasn't terrible in that case but usually is erratic. There is a reason why he is always on someone bench or cut from a roster.

I will ignore you whenever you mention Chris Copeland from now on. I think a lot of less of him then you and it is pointless even bring up numbers because even then Copeland is more of a 8-10th man on any NBA team.

I think you are severely underrating Lou Williams.

[NBASupes]

I think you guys are both overestimating the amount of points those guys are going to average. Maybe Dwight and CP3 will get close to 20 but Al is more than likely around 15 and then we will see a big drop off to a whole group of guys getting 7-10 points.I don't know about Copeland but I think that you're putting way too much into what he could be vs what he's done. I think we are far better off drafting a 2 way player like Franklin or taking a deadly shooter and incredible passer like Karasev to play the 3.

I don't see how it's possible that Al PPG drops from what it is now. He will have more scoring chances with CP3 than with any other PG in the NBA. They will run the PnR often. If anything, it's CP3 scoring that takes a dip. Dwight will still demand touches and a high usage rate. Al could be the leading scorer with CP3 and it's not that hard to see it otherwise. He is heavily assisted. Great and PnR, PnP, and he's extremely efficient. I could see him even average 24+. The difference is Dwight will also get a lot of touches especially with the PnR with him and Horf and Dwight get entry passes from our guards and Horf.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Leadership

[Admin]

I don't see how it's possible that Al PPG drops from what it is now. He will have more scoring chances with CP3 than with any other PG in the NBA. They will run the PnR often. If anything, it's CP3 scoring that takes a dip. Dwight will still demand touches and a high usage rate. Al could be the leading scorer with CP3 and it's not that hard to see it otherwise. He is heavily assisted. Great and PnR, PnP, and he's extremely efficient. I could see him even average 24+. The difference is Dwight will also get a lot of touches especially with the PnR with him and Horf and Dwight get entry passes from our guards and Horf.

Al will go from the #1a-b option to a much farther back 3rd option as Paul and Howard will carry the scoring load. There's only so many points to go around and 55 from your big 3 is pretty good. Thats only a 2.5 point drop off as well which is great since his usage will go down a much higher percentage. Then another 7-10 for the SG and SF and you're looking at 69-75 points for your starters. The Heat big 3 average 64 points and their starting 5 average 84 points. Considering our big 3 won't be ball dominant scorers like theirs are I'd say that's far more realistic to see 20, 20, 15, 10 and 7 from our starters for 72 total points.

[Admin]

If you are talking about only CP3 and Horford then yes Horford will do much better than he has and 22-24 would be possible. With Dwight that's not going to be close to happening as he will have far and away the higher usage. Either way I expect an increase in efficiency for Al with CP3.

[NBASupes]

Al will go from the #1a-b option to a much farther back 3rd option as Paul and Howard will carry the scoring load. There's only so many points to go around and 55 from your big 3 is pretty good. Thats only a 2.5 point drop off as well which is great since his usage will go down a much higher percentage. Then another 7-10 for the SG and SF and you're looking at 69-75 points for your starters. The Heat big 3 average 64 points and their starting 5 average 84 points. Considering our big 3 won't be ball dominant scorers like theirs are I'd say that's far more realistic to see 20, 20, 15, 10 and 7 from our starters for 72 total points.

CP3 is not a #1 or #2 option. He is a passer 1st and 2nd and scores when needed or when he wants to score. He can score like a #1 option but only if he has to. CP3 would be happy scoring 15PPG if he has too. Dwight is really not a #1 option. He needs #1 touches but he is not a #1 option. Horf would be our #1 option since well, he can play the PnR, PnP, and score garbage points with Dwight at a high rate. With CP3, we eliminate Al's weakness of not being able to create his own offense and use his efficiency as a benefactor.

I see Al being the biggest jump in terms of impact from this move. He moves to his natural position. We bring in the best PG for his style of play and he has shooters around him and Dwight so the floor is fully spaced out. This will be efficiency paradise. I don't see how this team losses more than 25 games barring injury. They are too big, smart, rebounders, efficient and talented. This team is built to dominate the season and playoffs.

[NBASupes]

If you are talking about only CP3 and Horford then yes Horford will do much better than he has and 22-24 would be possible. With Dwight that's not going to be close to happening as he will have far and away the higher usage.Either way I expect an increase in efficiency for Al with CP3.

Dwight will get #1 touches but the great thing about Al is he's a movement player. He doesn't need touches, he needs to be set up. He's not a Blake Griffin and of course not a Pau Gasol. Al works well with Dwight and CP3 from a skill-set standpoint.

Since the PnR will be our most used plays, Al should get at least 18 shots a game. With CP3 passing ability, our weapons, Dwight presence, and our BBIQ, this should be extremely efficient for our team. You can't jump the PnR or PnP and if you do, CP3 will dish it to the shooters or Dwight for an alley. Too many options for the Hawks to attack. This would be like the Spurs but even better due to the athletic ability.

[NBASupes]

Honestly, I am wrong, this team will likely not have a #1 option. Doesn't need one but it will have Dwight getting the most touches.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Leadership

[Admin]

Okay you've officially gone off the deep end saying Paul and Howard would be secondary options to Al. Even as deep as the Clippers were Paul still averaged 17 points this year and he's at his best when he's averaging 20 and 10 which he'd be doing here. Anyway I can see this is going nowhere so let's just revisit this in a year if we do sign the big 3.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think you guys are both overestimating the amount of points those guys are going to average. Maybe Dwight and CP3 will get close to 20 but Al is more than likely around 15 and then we will see a big drop off to a whole group of guys getting 7-10 points.I don't know about Copeland but I think that you're putting way too much into what he could be vs what he's done. I think we are far better off drafting a 2 way player like Franklin or taking a deadly shooter and incredible passer like Karasev to play the 3.

I somewhat agree on the points estimation. I originally had Howard at 19 ppg . . and Paul and Horford at 16 ppg. Paul can make everybody better, so I could see 2 or 3 other guys on the team be around that 10 - 12 ppg mark, if Paul is dishing out 10+ assists.

As for Copeland, he was an instant offense type of player last year. He scored almost 9 points in a little over 15 minutes per game. He shot the ball very well from 3 point range and can take people off the dribble. He and Mike Scott went toe to toe in that final game of the season.

Knicks fans love that dude maybe more than some of our fans love Kyle Korver.

If I'm a team that needs talent, like the Lakers and the Hawks, I'm definitely using part or possibly all of the MLE to sign Copeland. They'll just have to teach that kid how to be much more aware on defense. But if all a team wants from him is to score, he's a very good fit.

He's a much more versatile scorer than Kyle Korver, that's for sure.

[NBASupes]

Okay you've officially gone off the deep end saying Paul and Howard would be secondary options to Al. Even as deep as the Clippers were Paul still averaged 17 points this year and he's at his best when he's averaging 20 and 10 which he'd be doing here. Anyway I can see this is going nowhere so let's just revisit this in a year if we do sign the big 3.

It sounds crazy since Al's wasn't our #1 option this year and hasn't been but when 72% of your offense is assisted and your movement player. Your best PG is an old Bibby and you had a pair of so so combo guards, you get much less production since Al is such an efficient player who will not put the team in a bind. It would be more so related to the system and personnel than it would be because Al just decided he can be a #1 option any given night.

As individuals, CP3 and Dwight are much better scoring options than Horford. As an unit which the will have a lot of PnR's, curls, screens, post-ups, and corner threes. Horf might end up being our #1 scorer. In 2011-12, David West went from 19PPG to 12.8PPG. That is a big drop as well has his FG% dropped. Dwight will still get the most touches. That's what our offense will be based around. Dwight but the PnR will be huge as well.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I disagree on your scoring assessment and Lou's role was much bigger for Philly then it will be for us. He will do a specific role. In Philly, he had to be their #1 option. He will be more efficient because of it.

Mayo rumors: http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/oj_mayo

No one has a direct feel but SG's are hard finds and he's looking at getting 7-9 mil.

Atlanta could at most offer the MLE if they land CP3 and Dwight. GS will match that if not pay more. Not happening.

Why mention Bayless then? Plus Memphis wants him back.

Martin will still be worth more than the MLE if he gets the MLE, he will stay in OKC and not elsewhere.

No Nate did not. He was Chicago's 3rd string PG and his top five units all had more losses than wins on a team that won over 55% of their games. You are overrating Nate for the Brooklyn and Chicago series where he had free will to play his style of Basketball which wasn't terrible in that case but usually is erratic. There is a reason why he is always on someone bench or cut from a roster.

I will ignore you whenever you mention Chris Copeland from now on. I think a lot of less of him then you and it is pointless even bring up numbers because even then Copeland is more of a 8-10th man on any NBA team.

I think you are severely underrating Lou Williams.

Nate Robinson was 41 - 38 when he was on the floor overall.

Lou Williams was 19 - 20 when he was on the floor overall. And when Lou went down, we were a 22 - 16 team ( 58% winning percentage ).

Try again man.

Nate can do everything that Lou Williams can do, and some things even better, other than draw fouls on his jumpshot.

I don't know what other "specific role" Lou can do for the Hawks, other than to be a high usage, volume scorer . . which was exactly what he was asked to do in Philly. He can't play the point. He can't defend the 2. And he was shaky as hell in pick and roll situations.

He shot the ball very well in spot up situations ( 1.34 ppp . . . 5th in the league . . . and shot over 50% from 3 in those situations ). A lot of those spot of 3's were set up by Josh Smith.

He shot the ball decent coming off screens, but had high value on this shot, because he drew a ton of fouls ( 1.14 ppg . . . 9th in the league . . 42% FG . . but drew a foul on 9.2% of these shots, a very high rate )

Lou draws fouls. And drawing fouls is what makes him a very effective player at times. It's those games in which he's not drawing fouls, is when he kind of gets exposed as a shooter . . because he's not a shooter.

There is no way that Lou Williams is so important, that we discourage Howard and Paul to take less money, just to keep him around. You win championships with guys who are 1st and 2nd team All-NBA caliber guys. Not guys who are potential 6th man of the year award winners.

Lou can be replaced . . . just like we replaced Tyronn Lue with Flip Murry . . . who we replaced with Jamal Crawford . . . who we replaced with Lou Williams.

[Admin]

Copeland isn't that impressive to me. He's slow and unathletic looking and he's worth a vet min contract at most.

[NBASupes]

Nate Robinson was 41 - 38 when he was on the floor overall.

Lou Williams was 19 - 20 when he was on the floor overall. And when Lou went down, we were a 22 - 16 team ( 58% winning percentage ).

Try again man.

Nate can do everything that Lou Williams can do, and some things even better, other than draw fouls on his jumpshot.

I don't know what other "specific role" Lou can do for the Hawks, other than to be a high usage, volume scorer . . which was exactly what he was asked to do in Philly. He can't play the point. He can't defend the 2. And he was shaky as hell in pick and roll situations.

He shot the ball very well in spot up situations ( 1.34 ppp . . . 5th in the league . . . and shot over 50% from 3 in those situations ). A lot of those spot of 3's were set up by Josh Smith.

He shot the ball decent coming off screens, but had high value on this shot, because he drew a ton of fouls ( 1.14 ppg . . . 9th in the league . . 42% FG . . but drew a foul on 9.2% of these shots, a very high rate )

Lou draws fouls. And drawing fouls is what makes him a very effective player at times. It's those games in which he's not drawing fouls, is when he kind of gets exposed as a shooter . . because he's not a shooter.

There is no way that Lou Williams is so important, that we discourage Howard and Paul to take less money, just to keep him around. You win championships with guys who are 1st and 2nd team All-NBA caliber guys. Not guys who are potential 6th man of the year award winners.

Lou can be replaced . . . just like we replaced Tyronn Lue with Flip Murry . . . who we replaced with Jamal Crawford . . . who we replaced with Lou Williams.

Nate compared to Lou in 2012-13.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12CHI1.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win% 1 Robinson-Belinelli-Deng-Boozer-Noah 236 .97 1.08 -35 12 15 44 2 Robinson-Hamilton-Deng-Boozer-Noah 218 .93 1.07 -47 7 10 41 3 Robinson-Belinelli-Butler-Gibson-Noah 128 1.19 1.02 37 13 14 48 4 Robinson-Belinelli-Deng-Gibson-Noah 106 .97 .92 14 12 12 50 5 Robinson-Belinelli-Butler-Deng-Gibson 86 1.06 1.05 5 4 4 50

When Nate gets a lot of minutes the Bulls lose.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12ATL4.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win% 1 Teague-Williams-Korver-Smith-Horford 231 1.09 1.02 40 11 9 55 2 Teague-Williams-Korver-Horford-Pachulia 56 1.27 1.01 29 4 4 50 3 Teague-Williams-Stevenson-Smith-Horford 35 .98 1.28 -17 3 5 37 4 Harris-Williams-Morrow-Horford-Pachulia 33 .95 1.33 -22 1 4 20 5 Teague-Williams-Smith-Horford-Pachulia 25 .77 1.08 -18 2 9 18

When Lou got minutes he was effective.

Saying Nate team record v. Lou's team record is disrespectful to the comparison.

Lou impact cannot be replaced by none of the aforementioned players. Lou's effectiveness would be much higher if he was playing next to Joe Johnson or Jrue Holliday instead of Jeff Teague and Devin Harris. You aren't being factually wrong as you are looking at all variables. That's why I dislike when some people try to use adv stats when they do not understand them first.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Leadership

[NBASupes]

Copeland isn't that impressive to me. He's slow and unathletic looking and he's worth a vet min contract at most.

He has negative impact on the Knicks as well. His peak is Lee Nailon. That's not even a quality rotation player. That's a bench guy who gets spot minutes.